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Hi my player is a paladin of Iomedae form the Cathedrall of light, he swore his aligence to the church when he became a knight, but later on as an Andorian he choose to join the ranks of Andoran's finest , the Eagel knights. Thats all in his background. My main problem, he is a patriot and he spreads the ideals of democracy , but he also is a knight of a god. What if he had to choose between aligence to Andoran or to the Iomedae. This could make him betreying one of the side he swore loyalty to and thus lose honor like choosing whom to help in time of great peril, your god or your nation. So why there is so much paladins of Iomedae in ranks of Falcon knights? She is in fack a very agressive and active goddess , so crusades to distant realms are common probably for her worshipers and are they unaware that if there is a for example war with Taldor they might be rallied by the Cathiedrall of light or even the godess herself for a more (in worship perspective) important task like crusade against undead, deamons not some political affairs of Taldor and Andoran?
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For the most part there's no conflict between the two oaths. But a paladin is primarily a champion of their chosen deity. Ergo if they follow an order given to them by a secular authority that violates their oaths to their deity they lose paladin abilities until they atone.
So what? Paladin Iomedae from Citadel of Light according to the text should abandon for example Eagle Knights of Andoran if both of those organisation need assistance? It won't go against the honor, etc.?
I would say that the Paladin's allegiance to their god is their primary allegiance, one that takes precedance over all others.
As the Paladin has a close relationship with their god, they could disagree with and perhaps even disobey an order from a superior in their church, if they thought it was the will of their god. If their god gave them an order and they disobeyed, then their god is fully justified in withdrawing their Paladin powers.
That being said, likely the Eagle Knights are awares of the potential conflicts that may arise with Paladins and take them into consideration when formulating their postings and orders.
Such a conflict can be a good role playing experience, but is not for everyone.
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I would say that the Paladin's allegiance to their god is their primary allegiance, one that takes precedance over all others.
As the Paladin has a close relationship with their god, they could disagree with and perhaps even disobey an order from a superior in their church, if they thought it was the will of their god. If their god gave them an order and they disobeyed, then their god is fully justified in withdrawing their Paladin powers.
That being said, likely the Eagle Knights are awares of the potential conflicts that may arise with Paladins and take them into consideration when formulating their postings and orders.
Such a conflict can be a good role playing experience, but is not for everyone.
I was guessing the same thing, but on the otherhand can a paladin turn his back on a god he serves and take the mantel of a paladin that upholds ideals of a mortal lord such as those of the falcon knights , and still make use of his paladin power?
Thats a sticky situation, I'd say no, at least for a bit. If your gone was providing you with divine power and you then turned your back on them, obviously you'd lose your paladin powers. On the other hand, RAW a paladin doesn't have to follow a diety to get their powers, so maybe after some time under their new "mantle" their powers could start to trickle back to them. It'd be fun from a story-telling perspective to have the paladin go without powers for a few days/weeks/months/etc and then one day touch an injured person they really wanted to help and unintentionally "Lay on Hands" them, and then a bit later discover they were emanating the appropriate aura, etc etc
On the other hand, this could be extremely annoying on the part of the player to have to go a while without paladin powers and then when they do return to have them only trickle back...
I say that this is a great RP dilemma. If you have to choose it will mean breaking one of your oaths. The question is can you find a third way or are you just screwed.
It is like most of the moral dilemmas. Your mother and sister have fallen into the river and are about to go over Niagara falls. You have enough time to save one but not both. Whom do you save?
This is what makes Paladins such angsty biatches.
For me if he abandoned his god there is no atonement for that. The god gave him his powers he has a connection few people can understand. His paladin powers are rooted deep within that faith. Turning his back on that or even thinking of it really will do more damage then an enemy ever could. He would no longer be a paladin, and may not even be able to find enough "faith" in anything to become one again really. This is no a rules thing it's a roleplay thing.
It would be like well his faith is the skeleton his power is built upon, turning away from his god would crush it,it would brake, twist and becomes a broken thing. Hell his AL may even shift from such an event that would make him forsake his god. Once his Faith is that damaged repairing it to where it would ever allow that kind of power is unlikely and would be a long , long while or rebuilding his lost and destroyed spiritual self. And even then it will not be as strong as before.
You do not rebuild who you are spiritually without side effects
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Hi my player is a paladin of Iomedae form the Cathedrall of light, he swore his aligence to the church when he became a knight, but later on as an Andorian he choose to join the ranks of Andoran's finest , the Eagel knights. Thats all in his background. My main problem, he is a patriot and he spreads the ideals of democracy , but he also is a knight of a god. What if he had to choose between aligence to Andoran or to the Iomedae. This could make him betreying one of the side he swore loyalty to and thus lose honor like choosing whom to help in time of great peril, your god or your nation. So why there is so much paladins of Iomedae in ranks of Falcon knights? She is in fack a very agressive and active goddess , so crusades to distant realms are common probably for her worshipers and are they unaware that if there is a for example war with Taldor they might be rallied by the Cathiedrall of light or even the godess herself for a more (in worship perspective) important task like crusade against undead, deamons not some political affairs of Taldor and Andoran?
the Cathedral of Light may decide to do what Lastwall did when Cheliax and Taldor went to war... declared itself neutral... why?
becuase there are damn ebtter things for paladins to do than eb killing other paladins... wars between nations unless is for the ebst of the world are only counterproducent to Ioemdae's works...
so I myself, as Cleric of Iomedae would do and recommend the same... we heal everyone, we protect eevryone from absuses... those who abuse are going to be smite... whatever the nation whatever the time!
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I say that this is a great RP dilemma. If you have to choose it will mean breaking one of your oaths. The question is can you find a third way or are you just screwed.
It is like most of the moral dilemmas. Your mother and sister have fallen into the river and are about to go over Niagara falls. You have enough time to save one but not both. Whom do you save?
This is what makes Paladins such angsty biatches.
you save the closest one... that way you are sure to save at least one :P
or try to save the farthet one and in the way back try to bring the second?
that is the issue a paladin is a moral standard... if the Eagle's are below that standard then they don't deserve a vow, the same happens if a paladin serves an overlord that ebcomes evil even if he still is lawful and there is more good in opposing him than not, the paladin will... unless of course said evil overlord is the only thign stoppin an army of devils... then you look for toher ways to do good
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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This kind of dilemma happens in heroic fiction on a regular basis. It's a great way to introduce drama in a situation.
Historically, knights swearing fealty would routinely swear provisional oaths, which liege lords would understand and accept. "I vow to provide twenty men at arms and ride with you to battle once every two years, excepting that, should Your Excellency choose to war against Lyonesse, I must perforce send another knight in my place, as I have already pledged to defend my lands in Lyonesse against all her enemies."
If the paladin in question swore an absolute oath to his goddess, and another absolute oath to Andoran, then his folly has earned him everything you might throw at him.
Has he considered the simulacrum spell?
The atonement rules are there for a reason.
I think atoning to regain class abilities is quite lenient; not nearly so bad as real world excommunication if you're catholic.
I understand why players are averse to taking this sort of action, but if a paladin is considering breaching his code and seeking atonement to serve one of two oaths, then something very cool is happening in that campaign.
For this to have teeth the Paladin could have sworn allegiance to Nation A. Then the king of A asks the paladin to join his army against Nation B he then swears to destroy Nation B.
Now he gets word that his god's avatar has pledged protection for nation B and calls on all the churches warriors to defend nation B at all costs.
OPPS!
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Yup that is the problem. I pointed it out to my player, and we figured out that at least what he can do is to be a character that is only trained in the Cathedral and stays on the position of a novice , with no penalty and no real rank in the church. Unfortunatly that still leaves the problem of the Diety agenda. For my campaing specificaly I estimated that if there was a conflict where the official and well respected church was to stand in diffrent position than the paladins country, only a very close to neutral o chaotic beliver would say that the church might not have such a good connection to the god. No templar or teutonic like bastards that make you pay the taxes with steel and fire, only true to the god dogma believers bestowed with undeniable blessings.
For this to have teeth the Paladin could have sworn allegiance to Nation A. Then the king of A asks the paladin to join his army against Nation B he then swears to destroy Nation B.
Now he gets word that his god's avatar has pledged protection for nation B and calls on all the churches warriors to defend nation B at all costs.
OPPS!
A smart king, knowing of this beforehand, would find some other task for the paladin. Nations tend to have more than one border, or enemy, and making someone choose between loyalties is bad for business.
A more interesting question is what happens when Nation A is at war with Nation B, the goddess calls for all the church warriors to defend Nation B, and the paladin is busy serving the king of Nation C which wishes to be neutral in regards to the war, and moreover, King C will not release the paladin from his vows of fealty because having him go engage in defense of Nation B would quite reasonably be viewed as his nation picking sides. And to be fair, King C has also ordered all his vassals not to help Nation A either, no matter how many family, friends, wizard's alma mater's or whatnot happen to be there.
Well I concur, with the assessment, that a Paladin's loyalty is to his god first and foremost, but there comes the time in the live of a paladin (especially one, who does not live in a keep or monastery of his faith but for some unexplainable reason has chosen to be an adventurer) when he or she has to eat and drink, since thievery is obviously not an option and honor and bravery alone do not lead to a full stomach either, a paladin has to take up some kind of job. No Paladin in his right mind would even consider working for an evil organization and thus chooses his employer carefully.
As many have pointed out a Paladin has a special link to his deity, maybe just maybe he communes with his god, to check if the god thinks as well that taking on such an employment is a very good idea.
I personally think that a deity can foresee a causal chain much further than a mortal can especially when it involves one of the deities subjects.
Meaning: If the deity approves of the Paladins choice of employer, such a conflict won't occur.
AND
Since a Paladin serves a Lawful Good God, I think those deities have the necessary tolerance of ambiguity and know if a Paladin willingly and knowingly acts against their values or if a situation forces him to do so also he would act differently given the option.
Greetz
Ganzir