Hey folks,
I'm typically the DM for our Group, but recently I've been given the joyous chance at actually playing for a change.
My concept is a half-drow druid (FR Setting) - something I typically don't go for.
I'm likely to be going into Vermin Keeper Prestige class.
But my question is - would you allow a druid the ability to wildshape into vermin as a base class feature if they gave up the option of wildshaping into Animal forms.
Now my group oftens goes with what I say, so I'm a little too careful of such a suggestion for my character incase it turns out to be too powerful.
Now as DM i'd let a player do it, but I'm biased towards it, as I want to do it.
Can anyone give suggestions or reasonings why for balance sake I/we couldn't do this?
I think you lose more by giving up animals than you do for gaining ability to wildshape into vermin.
Thanks
EB
Off the top of my head I think you would be giving up more in animals than you gain from vermin. I would need to look at it more I guess but conceptually I wouldn't have an issue with this as DM.
That said, what I would probably recommend is that you take the Vermin Shape feat out of the Eberron Campaign setting.
Requirements:
Druid 5th, nongood, Child of Winter
Benefit:
Wild Shape into vermin form
For the cost of two feats you would get what you are looking for. However the cost here is a bit hidden. First, there are two feats required to get what you want, though child of winter is likely to be right along the lines of the flavor you want with your druid anyway.
The hidden cost though is that the first time a druid could take this feat would be at 6th lvl (assuming they are straight druid with no multi-classing), which means that you are now making a choice between this feat and the ability to cast spells while wild shaped (something generally considered a given for druids at level 6).
Sean Mahoney
Off the top of my head I think you would be giving up more in animals than you gain from vermin. I would need to look at it more I guess but conceptually I wouldn't have an issue with this as DM.
That said, what I would probably recommend is that you take the Vermin Shape feat out of the Eberron Campaign setting.
Requirements:
Druid 5th, nongood, Child of WinterBenefit:
Wild Shape into vermin formFor the cost of two feats you would get what you are looking for. However the cost here is a bit hidden. First, there are two feats required to get what you want, though child of winter is likely to be right along the lines of the flavor you want with your druid anyway.
The hidden cost though is that the first time a druid could take this feat would be at 6th lvl (assuming they are straight druid with no multi-classing), which means that you are now making a choice between this feat and the ability to cast spells while wild shaped (something generally considered a given for druids at level 6).
Sean Mahoney
Hey,
Thanks for the response.
I couldn't really find any reason while skimming over things either.
Vermin keeper allows me to change shape to vermin and have a vermin companion, so I don;t have to burn my valuable feats for it.
Was just idling pondering and tinkering, my first level in vermin keeper would be 6th too, so pretty much identical to the feat route apart from the prestige specializes in it more.
I'll probably just stick to the prestige and maybe have a vermin based druid alt for my future games, or a specific sea one etc. Base abilities wise.
I was simply going to suggest taking a look at the Libris Mortis swarm shifter feats and class ability. It has things in their for battleing the undead as well as shapchanging into a swarm of scorpions,bats,rodents etc. I dont think a druid would want the undead crawling claws but everything else even the sand form would be very usefull and completely natural.
I was simply going to suggest taking a look at the Libris Mortis swarm shifter feats and class ability. It has things in their for battleing the undead as well as shapchanging into a swarm of scorpions,bats,rodents etc. I dont think a druid would want the undead crawling claws but everything else even the sand form would be very usefull and completely natural.Two points:
1) The Swarm Shifter is a template that can only be applied to any corporeal undead creature with an intelligence score.
2) Even if the druid were willing to become undead (most likely through the Necropolitan template also in that book), the Swarm Shifter template has a Level Adjustment: - (meaning it is not intended for PCs)
As a side thought, wouldn't an undead druid wild shape into the form of an undead animal?
Did I miss something in the rules? I wasn't aware that level adjustment meant it wasn't for PC's. I mean yes it means that you sack some exp. for a level or 2 or 5 or whatever you may have but if you dont allow level adjusted characters how do you let players be assimar or half-vampire or reward your evil PC cleric by allowing him to become a death knight in service to his evil god.
Back to the original topic however. I do appreciate the rules update I wasn't aware of the undead requirement for swarm shifter(we house rule ignore that stuff anyway)Might I suggest checking out some of the other 3.5 stuff I am not sure but I think there is a feat that lets druids take on the form of magical beasts at soem point. I know in the draconomicon at 12th lvl you can do a draconic wildshape, breath weapon and all(it's awesome)
Keep digging and I hope this helps you find alt forms for shapechange.
Did I miss something in the rules? I wasn't aware that level adjustment meant it wasn't for PC's. I mean yes it means that you sack some exp. for a level or 2 or 5 or whatever you may have but if you dont allow level adjusted characters how do you let players be assimar or half-vampire or reward your evil PC cleric by allowing him to become a death knight in service to his evil god.
A LA is intended to gauge a race's strength in comparison to the standard races. If there is NO LA (such as in Dragons, the first two or three age categories have LAs but after about Young Adult or so they all just say N/A) then it's not intended to be played at all.
The quoted terminology I've seen used mostly by DMs who don't like their players playing "monstrous" or otherwise non-standard races and therefore use the presence or absence of an LA to determine whether or not the race would be allowed. I'd assume Freesword is of that opinion or at least leaning that way... but then again I could be wrong.
I am not quite sure what your asking; are you asking for a trade of wildshape from animals to vermin swarms? Hmm, changing just to one rat steps on the toes of another class; ie; shapechanging to "tiny" shape. Either way, as a gm I would have to hear a better arguement as changing into a swarm or changing to a "tiny" creature are two other classes abilities. of course, if your gm doesnt have either of those other two prestige classes in his game; he may not have a problem with it.
I would; we would just have to work out the limits as to not infringe on other classes yet still hold true to your concept.
|
I'm likely to be going into Vermin Keeper Prestige class.
But my question is - would you allow a druid the ability to wildshape into vermin as a base class feature if they gave up the option of wildshaping into Animal forms.
Sure. I'd probably even allow some Swarm forms at the higher levels, if you are also losing access to plant and elemental forms.
Non-insect druids also have access to flying (eagles) and venomous (vipers) forms, so the main *new* thing you would gain would be webbing from the giant spiders, which is a pretty cool ability, but not game-breaking. And you'd be losing access to creatures with abilities like pounce, gore, rend, swim, waterbreathing and whatever-they-call-it-when-a-cheetah-goes-into-warp.