Why wouldn't your Scout / Pointman take a level in Diviner?

[Stephen Ede]

I've got a Ranger myself who does point duty and I'm taking Wizard-Diviner as my 4th or 5th lev.
For the loss of 2hps average, 1 BAB, 4 skill points and a level behind in Ranger advancement I get to always act in the surprise round and +1 init, and some arcane spell ability, scribe scroll and arcane bond for kicks.

It's not like your point person isn't going to have a reasonable Int, they need the skill points. And lets face it, how do point people die? They get surprised and between the surprise round and anything acting before them in the normal round, they're down before they ever get to act.

What pointman wouldn't want effective immunity to surprise.

Stephen

[TriOmegaZero]

For exactly the reasons you state. Loss of HPs, BAB, and skill points. It's just trading out different powers. Every wizard power you gain is in exchange for a ranger power.

[Dave Young 992]

Stephen Ede wrote:

What pointman wouldn't want effective immunity to surprise.

Stephen

The one willing to give up the capstone abilities. If you won't get to 20th, it's not a bad move, but the ranger is no wimp at avoiding surprise. I'd add improved initiative and max out perception. Nothing can save the point man every time.

OTOH, Shield becomes a nice spell if you're going 2 weapon, or even with archery against the uber-mage firing magic missiles.

Give up something, get something else.

[Hydro]

"Always acts in the surprise round" is, I'll admit, a little over-the-top. If it were me, I'd let them roll spellcraft in place of their failed perception check.

If I were playing the party scout I would totally take the BAB hit in return for spider senses.

[Quandary]

And those inconsequential in-character reasons...

[Hydro]

Well, yea. That too.

Personally, I think that we're supposed to preface all such rhetorical questions with "from a game-only standpoint", or "if this were a computer RPG".

I.e, "If this were Baulder's Gate IV, why would/why wouldn't you . . ."

[TriOmegaZero]

Hence why I kept my reply limited to mechanics.

[Stephen Ede]

Quandary wrote:

And those inconsequential in-character reasons...

I'm sorry. We're a 3 person party doing the Runelords campaign with characters that we put together before we even had the complete Beta rules to look at. We've been technical TPKed once already before reaching 3rd lev (goddamn mutant goblin).

So yeah, I willing and able to fingle some excuse for taking diviner.

But as Hydro say, the "why wouldn't you" discussion do presuspose focusing on game mechanics.

Stephen

[Quandary]

Don't be sorry, I wasn't meaning to "negate" your perspective or anything,
It just seemed a valid aspect that popped out to me when I saw the thread.

"What pointman wouldn't want effective immunity to surprise.", sure,
but extending that logic, every classed enemy you meet will have some cleric or spec wizard dip, right? Honestly, I'm not the most knowledgeable on non-Core Items, but it seems like if there was some magic item out there some where that had a similar power, THAT would be what every point-man would want. (Does some Magic Item guru know of such a thing?)

...Have fun in your game! :-)

[Stephen Ede]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

For exactly the reasons you state. Loss of HPs, BAB, and skill points. It's just trading out different powers. Every wizard power you gain is in exchange for a ranger power.

Been surprised on point will kill you much quicker than +1 BAB, 2 hps and 4 skill points IME.

That's assuming you make the appropriate response to avoiding been surprised and finding yourself next to the hoardes on your own - namely RUN AWAY!

I accept everything is a trade off, but you have to go a long way up the Ranger tree to find amything as good as "immune to surprise". And been immune to surprise means you survive to get to those higher levels.

At 5th level "I'll get improved evasion 1 level before you"
At 16th level "Yeah, I don't have improved evasion yet, but that's because I'm playing a Fighter after my Ranger died when he was surprised".

The ability is entirely appropriate and moderate for a Diviner Wizard, but it does seems way to important to a point man not to dip into and grab. Note: I don't say it's broken, because I actually think it's the sort of thing that characters who take point SHOULD have access to, it's just a bit whacky that they have to become a wizard to get it.

Stephen

[TriOmegaZero]

I made no claim of one being better than the other. Just that those are the reasons someone would not dip diviner. I have no interest in arguing the validity or importance of this tactic, since we already have enough arguing going on about the rules. Yes, it is an interesting trick, and yes it could fundamentally alter your game world. Thanks for bringing it up.

[The black raven]

This ability is a survival must have for a melee character based on Dex (such as my TWF Rogue), as it gives you a pretty good chance not to get caught flat-footed (thanks to your high initiative).

And since being caught flat-footed is an all or nothing thing in the system, it is also very good on the offensive side.

Finally, it opens the way to using touch and ranged-touch spells to deliver your sneak damage to guys in heavy armor, paving the way for a nice Arcane Trickster build.

Not sure if such is viable though, much less broken, but I am pretty sure that I will thoroughly enjoy trying it in play.

[Hydro]

Yea, this does make diviner/trickster a nice choice. Though it also makes getting perception seem less attractive. Who needs sight when you have magic?

[Krigare]

Hydro wrote:

Yea, this does make diviner/trickster a nice choice. Though it also makes getting perception seem less attractive. Who needs sight when you have magic?

The trickster who got stuck in an antimagic field? =)

[Lokie]

Hydro wrote:

Yea, this does make diviner/trickster a nice choice. Though it also makes getting perception seem less attractive. Who needs sight when you have magic?

Yet if I'm not mistaken... don't you still need perception to "see" hidden enemies/objects and such when you are using clairvoyance?

[The black raven]

The AT will still need Perception to search for traps (or other things) as well as to avoid having his pockets picked. Or maybe to notice that the new guys in the fight are allies rather than opponents.

[Stephen Ede]

You always want perception.

If nothing else it means you can surprise THEM.
Diviner means you act in the surprise round if they surprise you.
It also means you act in the surprise round if your other guys surprise them.
It doesn't give you a surprise round if both side failed their perception checks.
It also doesn't give you a surprise round if they could've surprised you but chose to sneak away.

One of the things I most like about Pathfinder is that everyone can get Perception (no double damned cost for non-class skills).

Stephen E

[Dissinger]

Okay, so lets look at a couple of reasons to forgo diviner;

1) Obscenely high perception...

They get it as a class skill, and with favored terrain and enemy stacking, it means they are great when it comes to seeing things. Watch the math...

Character level + 3 + Favored Terrain Bonus (anywhere from +2 - +8) + Preferred Enemy (Anywhere from +2 - +8) = A lot of Perception.

2) Maybe he might not see them, and they don't see him either...

At level 12 Rangers can hide in terrain that doesn't provide concealment or cover. The only requisite is that is is a favored terrain, which at this point in the game you have two, and are a single level from your third. You should have the proper terrain shortly, if not immediately ready.

That stealth skill ALSO gets the same bonuses that Perception does as it is a class skill.

3) Die Hard

That's right, since you get endurance for free, might as well grab die hard and go to town. Its just logical if you're the point man, you need to call for help SOME way. Remember even if you die, so long as the party KNOWS your plight, there's a chance for raise dead.

Especially with the Pathfinder version, which only gives permanent negative levels, until greater restoration comes to clean them up.