Yeah, maybe just whip up 5th level fighters, with one level of hellknight, or just go with 5th level fighters. Have them attack with non-lethal, taking that -4, and the party could get captured and lunked in with Areal, and then help him escape that way. Seriously though, try and make them undertand that fleeing is the best option.
I think I would be tempted to allow a TPK this early. It doesn't really mess up the story at all since it really hasn't been told yet. I suppose if your players put a lot of time and effort into making the characters that is wasted, but they are also learning fear of the hellknights.
I think I'm with Sean here. I'd wipe them out. It will be quite a shock. Then you say "Okay, let's try that again...same characters. Oh, did I warn you that this is a dangerous town?"
Yep - kill 'em all off for being stubborn if they go that route. IF the Hellknights of the Rack can capture them for "interrogation", that's fine and dandy - but I suspect that quite a few 'suspected rebels' "die resisting arrest" or "under the duress of obtaining a legitimate confession".
Frankly, I'd rather a character died than be captured and interrogated (tortured) were I a player faced with the Hellknights' interregnum. Then they can obtain a confession via speak with dead - rather than by crippling my character after a stint on the rack or the wheel, a few hundred lashes and, say, various thumbscrews, branding irons and perhaps having an eye gouged out or worse...
I'd recommend statting up the nastiest 6th or 7th level LE "fighter" (or perhaps a home-brewed variant on Paladin - yum!) you could. The armigers are peons - but the 'real' Hellknights are another matter.
And as has been suggested, filing off the old character's name isn't difficult at 1st level. The players get the proverbial bucket of cold water to the face (via TPK), figure out new names and get re-recruited again.
When your 3rd-level buddy tells you and your 1st-level friends, "we really need to get out of here," you probably should listen. ;)
Although keep in mind that the Hellknights are Lawful, and the armigers in the sewers are LN (which may or may not be common in the Order). Extreme torture for patrons in the bar owned by a suspected rebel seems awfully severe. It seems like they should be afforded some kind of due process under the law. Plus, the truth is that the PCs haven't done anything wrong yet (aside from possibly resisting arrest).
Maybe the Order of the Rack is the "Kill 'em all and let the gods sort it out" type. I guess it all depends on the GM. Although, if they have clerics ready to cast Speak with Dead, they'd probably want to try Zone of Truth first.
When I get around to running the campaign, I'll probably have the rank and file be mostly LN ("Just followin' orders, ma'am"), but the leadership is LE.
Ayup - that's about what I'm thinking. The bosses - such as the "beast boss" running the show out front - are probably LE and are about guaranteed to have the armigers very well motivated to perform with zeal, but the mini-onions are LN "Doin' my job, ma'am" sound of truncheon upside the head types as you point out. The mini-onions are not going to go out of their way, but they come across very much as enthusiastic young police cadets in modern terminology - with a LE boss set guiding their development. The Hellknights of the Rack seem to be rather notorious for being 'enthusiastic', are definitely notorious for rooting out rebellion (albeit they seem to not realize that their efforts on occasion fan the very flames of rebellion they seek to suppress) - and there isn't much that motivates a player character more than exacting blood-splattered vengeance for the [idiot cousin/older sibling/younger sibling/now-deceased spouse/now-deceased offspring/brutally slain pet] that conveniently "expired while resisting arrest, sorry about that, here's a cookie".
This is getting more off topic, but in my campaign, I'll probably have the Order of the Rack be motivated, disciplined, and efficient.
Barring a crit that ends up killing someone outright, there would be dire consequences for a Hellknight that continues to bludgeon an unconscious person they were supposed to apprehend. It's cheaper to interrogate a live person over a dead one.
One captured and revived, the process would be to first interview them individually by someone with a decent Sense Motive skill. Then interview them again under the effects of a Zone of Truth to cross-check their answers. To further demonstrate their innocence, they'd be asked to forego the Will save while in the Zone. If there are discrepancies (or if it can be determined they made their save), then it would be followed up with a series of increasingly "persuasive" methods, designed to break their spirits. They might even offer up the classic Prisoner's Dilemma at that point. The final step would end with Speak with Dead, if they don't come clean before that point.
With that being said, if my players don't flee the encounter at the tavern, I'm gonna TPK them for being stupid. :-).
+1
Stupidity is a great way to ensure a TPK - especially in light of the particular encounter in question. :)
|
I'm also about to start the CoT AP.
I think that a DM should be ready for interrogations incase the PCs succeed at surrendering - esp. if most of the party is Lawful.
They will eventually be released because they know very little, and Janiven can approach them later. This would probably nix the sewer chase, though.
I figure that if they are able to run away from the inn, then if they have bad (good?) luck later with the tiefling HQ - i.e. are so stealthy they end up fighting too many at once, then they will have a precedent for retreating.
If they get TPK'd, then they will have learned to flee when they are overwhelmed.
Another potential problem with the first fight is:
If only some of them die, and others escape or are knocked unconscious, what then?
Creative Director
|
The Order of the Rack are not murderers. While the adventure is built assuming the PCs follow Janiven into the sewers, they can certainly stay and fight. They'll likely lose, and even if they win, the hellknights will just send more and tougher agents soon thereafter to finish the job.
But they're not murderers. The Hellknights should take pains to bind fallen foes' wounds and catch them alive. When they do, the PCs spend some time in jail, and maybe they're busted out or bailed out by Janiven, or maybe they sit in jail for a few weeks or months... in any case, they should come out of it with a more healthy respect and anger at the Hellknights, which should drive them to join Janiven and her allies even more... it's okay if the adventure has a few months or so of jail time for the PCs if that encourages them to join the Children of Westcrown.
The Order of the Rack are not murderers. While the adventure is built assuming the PCs follow Janiven into the sewers, they can certainly stay and fight. They'll likely lose, and even if they win, the hellknights will just send more and tougher agents soon thereafter to finish the job.
But they're not murderers. The Hellknights should take pains to bind fallen foes' wounds and catch them alive. When they do, the PCs spend some time in jail, and maybe they're busted out or bailed out by Janiven, or maybe they sit in jail for a few weeks or months... in any case, they should come out of it with a more healthy respect and anger at the Hellknights, which should drive them to join Janiven and her allies even more... it's okay if the adventure has a few months or so of jail time for the PCs if that encourages them to join the Children of Westcrown.
This is pretty sound advice. Still, it depends on what the players themselves do. It's entirely reasonable for the Hellknights to try to grapple, even if they don't have the appropriate feats, and it's reasonable for them to try to deal non-lethal damage. The Hellknights want to question Janiven and anyone else in the inn, not kill them.
So. If the players don't get the hint (or get high initiative and go lethal), ask this: when a squad of police want to question you and you resist and try to kill the police, what happens?
Maybe someone gets really hurt. Maybe not.
Ultimately, if the party is captured, what happens to them depends on what they do to the Hellknights. If they use lethal force, they'll likely be locked up for a long while.
Whatever the law says.
That's what I keep reminding myself. The tone of this place is [u]lawful[/u] evil. You resist arrest, you get locked up for it, not killed. Unless you kill a Hellknight in which case maybe you get strung up and publicly executed. Murder is murder, right?
Anyway, thanks for the great product James. We tried Second Darkness (and we still have a RotR campaign running!) for a few books but it petered out. So far CoT is turning out to be more fun.
The Order of the Rack are not murderers. While the adventure is built assuming the PCs follow Janiven into the sewers, they can certainly stay and fight. They'll likely lose, and even if they win, the hellknights will just send more and tougher agents soon thereafter to finish the job.
But they're not murderers. The Hellknights should take pains to bind fallen foes' wounds and catch them alive. When they do, the PCs spend some time in jail, and maybe they're busted out or bailed out by Janiven, or maybe they sit in jail for a few weeks or months... in any case, they should come out of it with a more healthy respect and anger at the Hellknights, which should drive them to join Janiven and her allies even more... it's okay if the adventure has a few months or so of jail time for the PCs if that encourages them to join the Children of Westcrown.
That's a great point, James. Maybe a TPK doesn't fit that well with the AP, but it would be an interesting way to send the 'this is serious' note to the Players! I did get the sense from reading AP25 and the fiction that The Rack has crossed that thin line from believing 'we serve the law' to believing 'we are the law.' I know we've seen plenty of very well-meaning legal enforcement organizations that have made that mistake even in the 'enlightened' days of late. I agree with the previous poster that capture would be reasonable until the PC's pull some stupid stunt like using magic or backstabbing someone.
Actually, I think it would be very interesting to set up some mechanic to let the dice play that little edge of randomness that creeps into high-tension situations like arrests. The Armigers, after all, aren't fully trained yet. Seeing your brother in arms go down to a nefarious blow might well set off a mob mentality in the Armigers at the least.
But, all in all I think James has it right (not surprisingly.) These guys are epitome of 'professional law enforcement' on Golarion. They'll likely capture the party instead of TPKing them. Darn.
|
Since the HellKnight PrC in the players guide has a +5 BAB, I'd make them at least 6th level, which should leave no doubt as to the outcome. Might be wise to give them some non-lethal options though to avoid an accidental TPK at the start of the AP, which also further emphasizes their desire to take prisoners for interrogation.
(I don't have this adventure yet... my FLGS ordered it two weeks ago, and they still haven't received it)
Anyway, I'd probably use a vignette here, or even a "real" encounter in which a Hellknight trashes several goblins or a single monster (something the PCs recognise as being cleraly above their abilities) or even an NPC informant. Sort of like a literary passage in which the reader (and the protagonists) learn how dangerous and ruthless certain adversaries can be. You'd have to be really subtle, though, so that the players get the hint and do not intervene.
Have a scene were a single Hellknight trashes a bunch of rowdy sailors in the docks. Have one of your PCs witness it, and then bring it up when the HKs show up.
Have you Knowledge (Local) PC or your high Sense Motive PC know this is a bad idea.
If they then decide to fight anyways....broken bones are a good teacher ;)