As written in Enlarge description :
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size.
So what about a +1 returning dagger, is it leaving possession of thrower and thus shrinks before returning to its owner at before his next turn? Let's say the owner can catch the returning dagger without trouble.
Then what about hand of apprentice? It seems to me the hand allows mages to retain possession (that is ownership) of the weapon since there is no possibility for mages to lose the weapon, hence no shrinking and larger type of damage.
Or am I misunderstanding the meaning of possession?
As written in Enlarge description :
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size.So what about a +1 returning dagger, is it leaving possession of thrower and thus shrinks before returning to its owner at before his next turn? Let's say the owner can catch the returning dagger without trouble.
Once a returning dagger left the characters possession it would immediately revert back to its normal size. Also note it does not change back when it does return the following round.
Then what about hand of apprentice? It seems to me the hand allows mages to retain possession (that is ownership) of the weapon since there is no possibility for mages to lose the weapon, hence no shrinking and larger type of damage.Or am I misunderstanding the meaning of possession?
HoA says "This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, ..." so with that in mind I would go with again the weapon would revert to its original size. No difference than a arrow fired from a bow would.
My above is based on this line from the Enlarge spell:
"Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage."
Ask your GM. I think the wording is wishy washy. My car is one of my possessions but it's in the driveway. Regardless it's pretty clear they mean your physical possession and I would tell my player no.
.. My car is one of my possessions but it's in the driveway....
Are you really sure your car is in your possession? I could be driving away with it right now. ;)
Nother question about HoA and thrown weapon in general.
using a 2 handed weapons with HoA or throwing one, should I expect to use 1.5 Str or just normal damage ?
Nother question about HoA and thrown weapon in general.
using a 2 handed weapons with HoA or throwing one, should I expect to use 1.5 Str or just normal damage ?
The hand can be directed to make a single attack against a foe within 30 feet, using your base attack bonus, plus your Intelligence modifier on both attack and damage rolls.
You certainly wouldn't get 1.5 strength. I could see the argument for 1.5 int, but
- It doesn't explicitly say you do
- I'm not aware of any other cases of adding 1.5 int to damage
so I'd say you only get your int bonus.
The above quote is from http://www.d20pfsrd.com/Home/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/arcane-schools#T OC-Universal-School, but I thought I remembered reading that HotA now uses strength for damage. Does d20pfsrd still have the beta rules for this ability?
If you do use Strength for damage, then I'd use whatever the rules say for a thrown, two-handed weapon.
...
The above quote is from http://www.d20pfsrd.com/Home/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/arcane-schools#T OC-Universal-School, but I thought I remembered reading that HotA now uses strength for damage. Does d20pfsrd still have the beta rules for this ability?If you do use Strength for damage, then I'd use whatever the rules say for a thrown, two-handed weapon.
Yea that is different from what my book and PDF say. They both have the following: "This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Intelligence modifier on the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (damage still relies on Strength)."
In which case if its a two-handed weapon I would use the 1.5Str.
As it is a ranged attack, I'd argue though that you wouldn't be able to "throw" a two-handed weapon with any real force though.
While possible, as a full round action, the section on thrown weapons only notes your Str bonus with throwns weapons, regardless of weapon thrown.
EDIT:
Backing this idea up to, is the general description for two-handed weapons where it states specifically that you gain 1.5 times your Str bonus to melee attacks.
Sense you are using two hands to throw a two handed weapon, you get 1.5 str damage. I would say that sense it is a thrown attack a two handed weapon would get this as well in HoA.
The universalists have been nerfed enough as it is, this would not be game breaking, as the worth-whileness of the effect diminishes very quickly; unlike all the rest of the School powers....
P.S. PRD
Hand of the Apprentice (Su): You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp and strike a foe before instantly returning to you. As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Intelligence modifier on the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (damage still relies on Strength). This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
The listing above is probably the Beta PRD
There are very few "real" weapons that are designed to be accurately thrown with two hands.
However, the wording in the core rulebook under the Strength ability score stuff on page 16 reads:
"You apply your character's Strength modifier to: [skip to second bullet point] damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon, including a sling. (Exceptions: ..., while two-handed attacks receive 1 1/2 times the Strength bonus. ...)"
Now, I am personally of the opinion that this is erroneous, but the way it is written a regular spear can be thrown two-handed and get that (1.5x Str bonus) damage yield.
Yay, errata! ^_^ (Whatever the result... :))
Not even taking HoA into account the rules do for example let you throw a greatsword. I have even had players do this and its a -4 to hit as its a improvised thrown weapon and all weapons get 10ft range increment. Going by the exact wording in the book you don't get 1.5 Str with such a weapon nor do you even get its normal critical hit values.
"Thrown Weapons(pg141): Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table 6-4), and a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."
The problem here is that if you want to read things exactly, or deal with a Core answer, then one does not get the 1.5Str or even get the weapons normal critical range. I was incorrect in what I said above.
Personally not in agreement with a limited use ability having to worry about the couple extra points of damage you get from 1.5Str. Nor do I think that the weapon crit range and values should change. I think I can safely say that the spirit of the rules for HoA was NOT to enforce such a set of rules and I personally have no plans to do so in my games.
Once a returning dagger left the characters possession it would immediately revert back to its normal size. Also note it does not change back when it does return the following round.
That is 100% in accordance with 3.5 sage advice.
Considering that the HoA is molded around the mage hand ability (looking back at the Beta), it is rather large of any GM to allow a 2-handed weapon to be used in this way. The ability is after all called "Hand" of the Apprentice, not "Hands" of the Apprentice.