Hullo, so I have a player that wants to play a cleric of Irori and the weapon associated with Irori is "unarmed" and since every cleric is proficent in their god's chosen weapon I assume this means that clerics of Irori get the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for free? I'm just confirming. Thanks!
That is the way I read it but even if I am wrong I will just houserule for the cleric of Irori in my campaign.
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In terms of proficiency, "Unarmed" is listed as a "Simple Weapon" which all Clerics are already proficient in. The feat "Improved Unarmed Strike" does not grant proficiency, it allows you to treat the unarmed attacks as if you were 'armed' which confer a number of other benefits.
Whether or not clerics of the Butterfly God deserve this is one thing. As it stands, all Clerics are already proficient in "Unarmed", so Clerics of Irori do not gain any extra benefit.
This is, likely, why most Clerics of Irori take some levels in Monk.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
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If you want to be a real stickler for the letter of the rule, then no, Clerics of Irori do not get Improved Unarmed Strike for free. An unarmed strike is a simple weapon, and every Cleric gets Simple Weapon Proficiency automatically.
It just strikes me as kind of cheap, though, if you don't give it to Irori's clerics, or to shortchange any cleric that way. I'd say give them all a free Weapon Focus (favored weapon) if the favored weapon is a simple one, or Improved Unarmed Strike for gods like Irori.
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I'd give Irori's clerics IUS.
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This really brings up a fantastic question.
My first thought is sure, give them Improved Unarmed Strike since they get hosed. But, then again, many other clerics are in the same position.
My Society cleric is a Cleric of Abadar, whose favored weapon is the Crossbow. The crossbow is a simple weapon and therefore my cleric is already proficient in that weapon.
Since it does not say anything about gaining Weapon Focus if you are proficient in your god's favored weapon, I just swallowed it as too bad.
But if Irori's clerics get Improved Unarmed Strike, then all cleric's of a deity whose favored weapon is a simple weapon should get Weapon Focus.
This would include Abadar, Irori, Pharasma, Nethys, and Asmodeus.
I would have no problem giving clerics of these deities Weapon Focus for free. And probably would not give Improved Unarmed Strike, but rather Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) to clerics of Irori.
But then again, I would be fine with not giving any free feat. The description says you are proficient with the favored weapon. It does not say anything about gaining free feats. If you are already proficient, you are proficient and met the requirement.
Now the big question is, can we get through for Society games?! If clerics of all deities whose favored weapon is already a simple weapon are supposed to get Weapon Focus for free, I need to make that adjustment on my Society sheet.
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If you want to be a real stickler for the letter of the rule, then no, Clerics of Irori do not get Improved Unarmed Strike for free. An unarmed strike is a simple weapon, and every Cleric gets Simple Weapon Proficiency automatically.
It just strikes me as kind of cheap, though, if you don't give it to Irori's clerics, or to shortchange any cleric that way. I'd say give them all a free Weapon Focus (favored weapon) if the favored weapon is a simple one, or Improved Unarmed Strike for gods like Irori.
Weapon Focus specifically says it can be applied to Unarmed Strikes, so I would just use Weapon Focus and not start mixing in other feats.
Is this going to be updated for the PDF/PRD/next printing?
Organized Play clearly has to follow the "RAW"... So...?
Can clerics of Irori use a gauntlet (plain vanilla, no spikes) and still be treated as using their favored weapon?
I only ask because "A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."
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This really brings up a fantastic question.
My first thought is sure, give them Improved Unarmed Strike since they get hosed. But, then again, many other clerics are in the same position.
I would disagree. No other god's clerics will always suffer an AoO for attacking with their deity's favored weapon, despite having proficiency. Unarmed strike is quite simply awful without IUS (at which point it is merely pretty bad without monk levels).
I would disagree. No other god's clerics will always suffer an AoO for attacking with their deity's favored weapon, despite having proficiency. Unarmed strike is quite simply awful without IUS (at which point it is merely pretty bad without monk levels).This really brings up a fantastic question.
My first thought is sure, give them Improved Unarmed Strike since they get hosed. But, then again, many other clerics are in the same position.
Agreed. Simple weapons are still very useful and well effective. Unarmed strike no so much
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Agreed. Simple weapons are still very useful and well effective. Unarmed strike no so muchI would disagree. No other god's clerics will always suffer an AoO for attacking with their deity's favored weapon, despite having proficiency. Unarmed strike is quite simply awful without IUS (at which point it is merely pretty bad without monk levels).This really brings up a fantastic question.
My first thought is sure, give them Improved Unarmed Strike since they get hosed. But, then again, many other clerics are in the same position.
Umm yes, but that is not the issue at hand. The issue is simply since the cleric of Irori is already proficient with the favored weapon shouldn't he get a free feat as compensation.
Now obviously the RAW would indicate no, as the cleric has proficiency. It says nothing what so ever in the skills section that the cleric should be proficient with the god's weapon of choice and not suffer attacks of opportunity while using said weapons. This is a flavor issue. Just like a Paladin is LG and has to put up with those darn LG values. Why shouldn't the Paladin get some extra free benefit since they have such a major restriction on their actions and most other classes don't?
Of course do it however you like in your own game. :) But for a general rule they should all be treated evenly and get the same feat. If they are not to be awarded the same feat then simply say the cleric should choose any one feat from the complete list to suit his desires.
This of course would upset other clerics who are restricted to a single proficiency of one weapon, so would probably need to be compensated with an extra Trait perhaps... You see where this leads.
So either they should get no additional free bonus feat since yes, they are proficient with the weapon, which is all it says they should get to begin with, or they should all get the same free feat for the sake of fairness, or just open it up and throw out any feat and trait combinations that make the cleric happy- and be prepared to give out free feats and traits to the other classes who don't get them and are ill treated. That is one long run-on sentence! I LOVE IT! lol
The current situation sucks for Clerics of Irori who might want to use Unarmed Strike.
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that IUS is the crucial pre-requisite to alot of other interesting Feats, namely Imp/Grt Grappling, Scorpion Strike, Medusa's, et al. So getting the 1st Feat in that chain *IS* quite a big deal.
I think a compromise might be a footnote in the Deity:Domain:Favored Weapon Table indicating that Clerics of Irori DON'T PROVOKE AoO's when making Unarmed Strike (and also allowing them to apply Lethal damage). They still need to take IUS if they want to pursue the Unarmed Combat Feat Chain. Basically, only the #1 s*$+tiest thing about using Unarmed Strike is compensated for.
Would that be a viable update/errata for the next printing?
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You know what you do if you really want to Unarmed Strike as a Cleric of Irori?
You take a level in Monk.
Or take the feat.
This is just one example, but I don't get all the 'we should get this and this because it makes sense' requests.
How about we give a Cleric of Gorum free Heavy Armor Proficiency again? I mean after all, it talks about their priesthood always being in the heaviest of armors.
Or let's give Clerics of Erastil free Point Blank Shot? After all, they all are probably good with bows.
Clerics are as clerics are. They are casters. They have domains. I don't think they should get it just because their free proficiency isn't as good as other free proficiencies (unarmed isn't as good as simple isn't as good as martial). There is an endless list of things you could give Clerics of specific gods because 'it makes sense for their priesthood to have it'. It's never-ending.
Now if you were to make, say, a "Meditation" or something a Domain where the 1st level granted power was IUS (kind of like the Plant domain's schtick) then I'd be behind that. At least then they'd have to pick that as one of their domains. :)
...This is a flavor issue. Just like a Paladin is LG and has to put up with those darn LG values. Why shouldn't the Paladin get some extra free benefit since they have such a major restriction on their actions and most other classes don't?
This may be thread-jacking but I think the PF Paladin now gets extra benefits because of the restrictions compared to other classes. And I just love it!
I'd cast my vote in with House Ruling IUS for Irori Clerics and Weapon Focus for simple weapons' Deities. That's just me.
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Personally, I think it's silly to give a Cleric more proficiency in their deity's favored weapon (for free) than a Paladin of that god.
A Cleric of Irori gets Weapon Focus (Longsword) for free, but not the Paladin?
What about Fighters that really worship that God, they still have to take the feat too? :)
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Let me explain why I am against such an idea of giving the Cleric of Irori a free feat to boost a perceived failing.
The choice of weapon is largely flavor. Also, I am not a big fan of the need to be perfectly equal across the board. Some choices have consequences, both good and bad. If the game were designed around perfect equality then all weapons and spells and abilities would be exactly equal in damage and capability. That is boring. It would be 4E.
Also, if such a perceived failing needed to be addressed then other aspects of the favored weapons need to be addressed. For example, Clerics of Rovagug use a Greataxe, which has a Crit multiplier of x3, while Clerics of Pharasma may use a Dagger which is more likely to Crit with a 19-20, but Claistria's clerics use a whip which does no damage to anyone wearing +1 armor or better. Erastil's clerics get to use a ranged weapon while others are restricted to melee range.
Do we instead say that all cleric weapons, regardless of the actual weapon stats, do d12 (19-20x3) range 120 feet, damage so all choices are equal?
That sounds pretty stupid doesn't it? Trying to equalize all the possible inequities that arise from weapon choices...
I mean let's look at Calistria now? Seriously. Her clerics cannot damage anyone wearing armor, they do not threaten anyone, and their weapon provokes attacks of opportunity.
You know, at least a Cleric of Irori could do damage and threaten a target.
So what is to be done with a Cleric of Calistria? I am dead serious. The Cleric of Irori has it SO much better than Calistria. What free feats do these cleric get to bring them up from such a horrible disadvantage?
Now, do you see why I dislike tossing out free feats? It's not such a minor issue after all is it? Now you have to address equalizing Calistria's Clerics and I doubt this is going to be an easy one.
So, you see, by trying to equalize one perceived inequality, we have discovered more, that are not simple to fix, but now must be fixed.
But really I can't wait to see how Calistria is going to be fixed.
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Personally, I think it's silly to give a Cleric more proficiency in their deity's favored weapon (for free) than a Paladin of that god.
A Cleric of Irori gets Weapon Focus (Longsword) for free, but not the Paladin?
What about Fighters that really worship that God, they still have to take the feat too? :)
No we have fixed that. They should get the feat free as well. Everyone with a perceived inequality to any class, race or player gets free feats to fix that problem.
I'd say about 20-30 free feats at level one should fix everyone.
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I mean let's look at Calistria now? Seriously. Her clerics cannot damage anyone wearing armor, they do not threaten anyone, and their weapon provokes attacks of opportunity.
You know, at least a Cleric of Irori could do damage and threaten a target.
So what is to be done with a Cleric of Calistria? I am dead serious. The Cleric of Irori has it SO much better than Calistria.
Actually Calistria clerics are pretty weak, for that very reason - like Irori clerics, they have to take at least one feat for their weapon to be useful (and more likely two: Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, and you might need to drop Agile Manuevers and Weapon Finesse in there as well) - but it is still not true that they are worse off than Irori clerics are. Whips have a 15 ft range, meaning that you can use them without provoking an AoO by remaining outside your target's reach. And yes, you don't threaten with them - but without IUS, unarmed strikes don't threaten either. Whips at least have reach.
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Actually Calistria clerics are pretty weak, for that very reason - like Irori clerics, they have to take at least one feat for their weapon to be useful (and more likely two: Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, and you might need to drop Agile Manuevers and Weapon Finesse in there as well) - but it is still not true that they are worse off than Irori clerics are. Whips have a 15 ft range, meaning that you can use them without provoking an AoO by remaining outside your target's reach. And yes, you don't threaten with them - but without IUS, unarmed strikes don't threaten either. Whips at least have reach.I mean let's look at Calistria now? Seriously. Her clerics cannot damage anyone wearing armor, they do not threaten anyone, and their weapon provokes attacks of opportunity.
You know, at least a Cleric of Irori could do damage and threaten a target.
So what is to be done with a Cleric of Calistria? I am dead serious. The Cleric of Irori has it SO much better than Calistria.
But whips do no damage to armored foes... at least an unarmed strike does damage to an armored foe. Seriously when was the last time your PC faced an opponent that didn't have some armor? Pretty darn rare.
What good is having reach if you can't damage them? Well, okay you MIGHT be able to trip them. And they get up and you do what trip them again?
I would take an Unarmed Attack over a whip any day. :) well, the corsets might sway the decision though... >;)
Krome, if I were a gay dwarf I would be all over you.
As it is, you will have to make do with my respect good sir.
Oh gods...dirty sweaty gay dwarf porn is now stuck in my head...damn you
Personally, I think it's silly to give a Cleric more proficiency in their deity's favored weapon (for free) than a Paladin of that god.
A Cleric of Irori gets Weapon Focus (Longsword) for free, but not the Paladin?
What about Fighters that really worship that God, they still have to take the feat too? :)
Not sure where the Irori/Longsword thing comes from but I would probaly offer a Paladin dedicated to Irori to trade in one or two armor or weapon proficienty feats (Heavy, Medium or Martial) to get IUS in exchange.
I see where Krome is coming from (no mention of emotionnal attachment to the burly fellow!) but I personaly really feel that martial weapons do have a notable notch above simple ones (and simple have a notch over unarmed attacks) and my experience with whip weilders is that it's a very good Maneuver weapon that stands on par with martial weapons at least but no one ever does damage with the base version (a Shocking Whip +1 does have a certain charm to it).
Overall I think the best thing to be done is simply remove the ability to use the favored weapon of the deity for clerics.
It's not balanced and only creates issues. If clerics need one more feat to balance the class, well I have an idea of what it should be but we can discuss that in other places.
Thanks for all the input everyone. Lots of great discussion. I think how I'm going to house rule it is this way:
"The unarmed strike from a cleric of Irori does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
That's it. It's is still an unarmed strike so it does non-lethal damage. It's not a free feat. So no AoO, but not quite as good as the IUS feat.
If he wants to do lethal damage he can take the IUS feat or he can take a level of monk.
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But whips do no damage to armored foes... at least an unarmed strike does damage to an armored foe. Seriously when was the last time your PC faced an opponent that didn't have some armor? Pretty darn rare.
A lot of arcane casters fall into that category, as do basically all monks. I spent the first two days of GenCon running the PFS module "Shipyard Rats," and three of the six encounters in that adventure include opponents who could be damaged by a whip. It isn't common, sure, but it's not exactly unheard of.
What good is having reach if you can't damage them? Well, okay you MIGHT be able to trip them. And they get up and you do what trip them again?
Sure, why not? It's battlefield control, an extremely effective tactic overall. A Calistria cleric built to really use her whip would actually be a fairly potent combatant.
Though that is, as I said before, a hefty investment of character resources. Calistrians aren't doing themselves any favors with their favored weapon, and I freely admit that. But they're certainly not worse off than Irori clerics are.
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Thanks for all the input everyone. Lots of great discussion. I think how I'm going to house rule it is this way:
"The unarmed strike from a cleric of Irori does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
That's it. It's is still an unarmed strike so it does non-lethal damage. It's not a free feat. So no AoO, but not quite as good as the IUS feat.
If he wants to do lethal damage he can take the IUS feat or he can take a level of monk.
An alternative for your consideration: allow a cleric of Irori to exchange one of the domain powers they get at first level for the first level domain power of the Plant domain (reskinned to avoid the plant imagery). They would get a slightly-stronger-than-usual unarmed strike that does not provoke AoOs and deals lethal damage, but is also limited by rounds/day.
That's it. It's is still an unarmed strike so it does non-lethal damage. It's not a free feat. So no AoO, but not quite as good as the IUS feat.
Eh, proficiency with a martial weapon is also a feat. A cleric of Iomedae is proficient with a longsword, which would normally (for a cleric) take a feat to get. Some deities don't have a favored simple weapon, but that might be on purpose (to balance something else out?). I don't think it's a big deal just giving them the feat. Your call though q:
The way I see it the clerics gaining proficiency with their deity's favored weapon will provide different levels of benefits to different clerics. Some will get nothing, others will get a good weapon, and a few will get a weapon that they just wont care about. And that is fine for me given that I like clerics being trained in the weapon of their deity. To me, some Clerics gaining a weapon proficiency do not change the balance of power in a significant way. However, I might consider giving Clerics something a +1 bonus to damage with the favored weapon if the Cleric was already proficient in it.
I could see myself giving a Cleric of Irori Improved Unarmed Strike that I don't see the benefits of an unarmed strike overpowered in this case.
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Personally, I think it's silly to give a Cleric more proficiency in their deity's favored weapon (for free) than a Paladin of that god.
A Cleric of Irori gets Weapon Focus (Longsword) for free, but not the Paladin?
The paladin, by virtue of having higher BAB than the cleric, has "built-in weapon focus" with all weapons at first level.
