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I am assuming that the bonus hp from the beta are gone? Can't find them anyhow.
Myself, I'll still use a flat +6, which was one of the biggest fun-enhancers from our Beta game (longer adventuring day at 1st level, less "player not at fault" deaths, whole thing on less of a knife-edge all-round at low level which actually led to better drama, etc). Anyone know why it got ditched? I don't think that most people were objecting to it during the playtest, were they?
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I guess with there not being d4 hit dice any more, the favoured class bonus having the option of applying to hit points and the Pathfinder version of the Toughness feat, not to mention the more generous death threshold in Pathfinder, they may have decided it wasn't necessary.
The first three, at least, are in the Beta too (haven't looked at death threshold in the final RPG, yet) and in my experience it was the meleers that benefited most from the extra hp early on anyhow (as they were mostly the ones in harm's way). I guess I'm bemused that it went when it seemed to me that most of the playtest discussion of it was pretty positive.
I never liked it. My thinking is that if you don't want knife's edge play, then you don't want to play at low levels. =p
I've heard a few others say the same but I don't believe there was a huge outcry either way.
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I never liked it. My thinking is that if you don't want knife's edge play, then you don't want to play at low levels. =p
I've heard a few others say the same but I don't believe there was a huge outcry either way.
Actually, I got more drama because players weren't inclined to try and hole up when hp were low, so combats could result in more damage. Mostly, though, I think that player deaths from single unlucky dice rolls are generally unfun (not always, mind; sometimes it sets a certain mood). Both I and the players had a lot more fun with the bonus hp than without.
Maybe it'll be an option or something in the Gamemastery guide coming out next year.
I don't have the hardcover yet, but it's in the Pathfinder Reference Document: Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Prestige Classes) can never be a favored class.
I don't have the hardcover yet, but it's in the Pathfinder Reference Document: Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Prestige Classes) can never be a favored class.
The same text is on page 31, in the top left corner.
I liked the racial hit points, and was hoping they'd make it.
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I'm personally glad they're gone as well. I like starting at low levels and actually worrying about a knife stabing me and killing me, I like to start out weak and get strong. I'm in a Beta Playtest that had con score as bonus hp, and we had a cleric who only healed once during the three goblin fights. Granted I got down to 4 hp after the three fights, but it makes me feel too strong at low levels and I like low level lethality.
I think that the current system as a default is perfect and if you want more HP you can use favored class and toughness feat.
Right, first level being scary is sortof part of the game.
Anyone can use other options of course...
Of the bonus HP options in Beta, I liked the Racial HPs one the most, myself, though if I used that I would apply to ALL NPCs as well. The end result doesn't favor PCs/NPCs, but makes things less 'swingy'.
My players still were scared. They just didn't die as easily or in as great of numbers. :)
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Right, first level being scary is sortof part of the game.
Anyone can use other options of course...
Of the bonus HP options in Beta, I liked the Racial HPs one the most, myself, though if I used that I would apply to ALL NPCs as well. The end result doesn't favor PCs/NPCs, but makes things less 'swingy'.
I'd use it for NPCs too
And players are still plenty scared; they're just scared of the fights and the reasonable consequences of making bad decisions, not of bad luck.
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I used the racial bonus HP as well.
My concern isn't that I can't find that, but I find NO rules for determining starting HP (even if its just to mention your first hit dice is maxed out.) The Errata is also disturbingly lacking of any rules for HP. Even rules governing leveling up and gaining HP are woefully missing. Was this intentional?
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I used the racial bonus HP as well.
My concern isn't that I can't find that, but I find NO rules for determining starting HP (even if its just to mention your first hit dice is maxed out.) The Errata is also disturbingly lacking of any rules for HP. Even rules governing leveling up and gaining HP are woefully missing. Was this intentional?
Page 12, under 'hit points.'
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Page 12, under 'hit points.'I used the racial bonus HP as well.
My concern isn't that I can't find that, but I find NO rules for determining starting HP (even if its just to mention your first hit dice is maxed out.) The Errata is also disturbingly lacking of any rules for HP. Even rules governing leveling up and gaining HP are woefully missing. Was this intentional?
Thanks, I knew I was going crazy.
As for the racial Hit points, I'm keeping them. It doesn't detract at all from the tenseness that is the first encounter. If anything it actually makes it more suspenseful. It creates a barrier that one hit will not kill someone, but the second one might.
I was running second darkness, where we were using racial hit points just two nights ago. They had gotten to the raid, and by the end of it, the halfling rogue was down to a measly 5 and the Wizard was on his last hit point. It had built up a bit of suspense as the fighter while quite alright had no clue just how close two of his friends had come to meeting Pharasma.
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You could give the bonus HP and then when they level up they add no hp until their running HP total without the bonus surpasses their bonus HP.
Does that make sense?
So a 14th level character is going to have the same number of HP. But 1st level characters will not.
In a way it is like giving 2HD at first level and none at 2nd and then continuing on from there... Hmm, that's not so bad...
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We used a modified system.
Max hit die at level 1
add CON score at level 1
but for each additional level we used a variant we developed when, as a high level Fighter, I rolled 1 three levels in a row.
the variant guarantees half hit points every level.
d12=d6+6
d10=d6+4
d8=d4+4
d6=d3+3
d4=d2+2
worked well for keeping HPs at acceptable levels just above average.
The extra HPs from the CON score worked great for mitigating lucky rolls but became a minimal consideration at mid to high levels.
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The whole point of things was to start off weak, take risks and go on adventures after all.
The bonus hit points weren't as bad as what the current occupant of the "world's oldest RPG" did, but between most of the classes having decent sized hit dice, and the bonus you can take from your favored class, I don't see much of a need for it.
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The whole point of things was to start off weak, take risks and go on adventures after all.
The bonus hit points weren't as bad as what the current occupant of the "world's oldest RPG" did, but between most of the classes having decent sized hit dice, and the bonus you can take from your favored class, I don't see much of a need for it.
I more often see people use favored class for Skill points than bonus Hit Points.
Those were all optional systems, anyway, so it's not as if anything has really changed.
Never liked the racial variant, it only exaggerated the problems with some races.
And the variant I use wasn't even one of the choices.
So when all's said and done, nothing much has changed - you can still use whatever method you want.
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Mmm, all the characters people have been building for the Council of Thieves game that's going to be running where I am have put their favoured class bonus into skill points. Though that might not be a totally fair example, as the player's guide does make it sound like quite a few skills will come in very handy. I'm currently split 50-50 on my 2 PFRPG characters; my PFS character has put it to hp, while my CoT character has gone with skill points.
I have talked about this in the rules section but it will get more play here so I would like to say a few words.
I think the racial varient was fantastic in every aspect.
Dwarves and Half orcs get a plus 8 for being ?stout?
Huaman and half elves got plus 6 for being ?something?
And Elves, Gnome and Halfings got plus 4 for being frail
Flavour=much
But here was my problem
Even with a fighter with a plus two con bonus, so starting hit points of 12
Orc.
CR 1/2
Weapon Battle Axe 1D12+2
Ten an above kills them.
This isn't even on a crit.
Ten and above.
Doesn't sound like much?
How about you pick up a deck of cards and look at every picture card.
Those are your success at kill a charater of first level verse an Orc.
Orcs are iconic and people outside the game know them.
No reason for first level adventures not to verse them you can moe them down pretty easy.
Now
A gnome fighter with a con bonus of two with frail.
16.
Completely outside of that one hit one kill.
Half Elf
19 with choosing fighter as there class
Half Orc
21
No more one hits one kills.
Of all of the different options I thought racial was the best.
I tried some of the others namely the one where you use your CON and your hit dice max as your starting hit points.
Level one wizards with no con bonus with 16 hit points were not the problem it was level one fighters with a con bonus.
Anyway sorry for the length.
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Once again, I like that one stab from a dagger can kill me at first level. It makes me a lot more cautious at the begining of my adventuring career. That's just my gaming style, I like to start out weak and cautious and grow to an adventurer. Not start out an adventurer knowing that I can take a hit from a greataxe and not fall. Just the way I like it.
A friend of mine knows the rules better than anyone I know but his really cool about it I stuffed up on something last adventure I had him in and he just left it til after so that I didn't get embarressed or he looked like a rules lawer.
Just setting the tone for the kinda guy he is.
He refuses to have first level adventures with D&D because and I quote "If there welding anything more leathal than a soggy loaf of bread they really have to think about this combat"
I like to play to flavour.
I have had adventures throw fire based attacks at red dragons cause they have never encountered them before or done research.
Young adventures, sratch that inexperinced adventures are brash and gun-ho.
Shoot first, ask questions later.
With experince they learn there limitations.
Also I like my encounters to be leathal this way the adventures can come through by the skin of there teeth rather than just swinging on home.
Making a leathal adventure for a first level adventure is easy.
Easy is not when it is fun for me.
But on the otherside of the table I see people write up epic back story, some aren't so epic but there still emotionally invested in a charater.
I don't want my first adventures to always be so leathal that everyone dies and players become apthatic when it comes to first level adventures.
I know some people like the otherside of the coin but am I really a minority on this?
The bonus hit points weren't as bad as what the current occupant of the "world's oldest RPG" did, but between most of the classes having decent sized hit dice, and the bonus you can take from your favored class, I don't see much of a need for it.
I like the final rules. They are significantly more backwards compatible than some of the beta rules, and vastly more so than alpha.
I am one of the people who doesn't like 4e for it's *failure* of reverse compatiblility.
And I am also one of those people who thinks that power inflation is a thing to be guarded against carefully. In this, I think Pathfinder slipped down the slope a bit. But not so much that I feel that I can't use legacy materials from 3.0 and 3.5 with my Pathfinder game with reasonable balance.
I think Pathfinder Rocks!
Gene P. <alcore@uurth.com>
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My group also like the racial hp system, and decided to house rule it back in, but we made one modification. We moved the gnome from the +4 for being frail, to the +6 hp. That makes it elves and halflings at +4, 1/2 elves, humans and gnomes at +6, and dwarves and 1/2 orcs still at +8. We may the change based on flavor and racial traits. Gnomes are cousins of dwarves, and get a +2 bonus to Con. It just did not fit with us having a bonus to Con but being considered frail for starting hp. Just our take on it. As they say, to each his own.
Also I like my encounters to be leathal this way the adventures can come through by the skin of there teeth rather than just swinging on home.
Making a leathal adventure for a first level adventure is easy.
Easy is not when it is fun for me.But on the otherside of the table I see people write up epic back story, some aren't so epic but there still emotionally invested in a charater.
I don't want my first adventures to always be so leathal that everyone dies and players become apthatic when it comes to first level adventures.I know some people like the otherside of the coin but am I really a minority on this?
No you are not, I do not like play 1st levels characters, they die too
easy, and I have invested time and emotion in making my character, at
lower levels one bad die roll and you are gone. Some GMs are know as
killer GMs and they seem to be proud of that, but, GMs that create
and run a fun game I like better. Personally, a character needs as
many HPs as possible, because, it is sooo easy to kill them.
Let me first say I consider myself a killer GM.
Not so much for actually killing players but my world being lethal.People who go into something half cocked regret it or they are no longer able to regret.
Some of the times I throw players into situations I do not have a game plan on how they will solve it.
This is how I am entertained as a Game master.
Watching my players figure ways out of something that I just don't know how they will.
Some of the times they do very interesting things other times they hold up there sheet of a well build character and say this beats that.
But designing a first level adventure were they have that wiggle room is very hard.
Kobolds and Goblins.
Thats about it.
For me thats not very fun as DM.
Why can't my players define there roles early as dirty harry style adventurers where the stop 'bad guys' from causing trouble in there city.
I like to give my players alot of wiggle room, sometime adventures have been completely abandoned and others formed spontaneously.
However how does one do this with the first level adventure as they are?
Some may point at compatability issues but I say this.
Pathfinders goal was correct the problems of three point five.
In this regard I am asking why?
Not why is this not in the book that would be offensive.
I am asking could you please tell us why you choose not to?
I am using the racial hit point bonus.
However if the pazio staff could please tell us why they choose not to do this I would be very appreciative.
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My group also like the racial hp system, and decided to house rule it back in, but we made one modification. We moved the gnome from the +4 for being frail, to the +6 hp. That makes it elves and halflings at +4, 1/2 elves, humans and gnomes at +6, and dwarves and 1/2 orcs still at +8. We may the change based on flavor and racial traits. Gnomes are cousins of dwarves, and get a +2 bonus to Con. It just did not fit with us having a bonus to Con but being considered frail for starting hp. Just our take on it. As they say, to each his own.
Thank you, I liked the idea of the racial HP bonus if you were going to use bonus HP mods, but that just bugged me to no end and I talked about it every time it came up.
I'm surprised it didn't stay in as an optional rule sidebar, but considering how packed full the book is, I don't blame them for not including "new" optional rules. Which is the main reason I think it didn't make the cut, space limitations and the fact that they didn't want them to be the core rules, but used as options.
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I am assuming that the bonus hp from the beta are gone? Can't find them anyhow.
Myself, I'll still use a flat +6, which was one of the biggest fun-enhancers from our Beta game (longer adventuring day at 1st level, less "player not at fault" deaths, whole thing on less of a knife-edge all-round at low level which actually led to better drama, etc). Anyone know why it got ditched? I don't think that most people were objecting to it during the playtest, were they?
In my campaigns I ALWAYS give players some boon for the 1st level PC they make. This BOON only applies to thier original PC so if they die and bring in a new one they don't get it.
My most common boon is what ever HD you have at 1st level then you get 1 additional + the con bonus.
Example
All assumes 14 CON
1st Level Fighter 10 + 10 + 2 + 2 = 24
1st Level Wizard 6 + 6 + 2 + 2 = 16
1st Level Cleric 8 + 8 + 2 + 2 = 20
This gives them the umph not to die to an super lucky roll on the bad guys part (I roll 90% of my rolls in front of the players). I thik this is balanced becuase barbarians are still KING of HP's and the D6 softies still need to be careful and not charge head first into battle with the quarterstaff.
These extra hitpoints also make the PC's WANT to keep thier original PC's. One of my pet peeves is people who just swap PC's every other adventure in a campaign and make it damn hard to keep storylines going.
This method has help myself and my players a lot.