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Ok guys we are not longer in RAW but last knights game. If he wants to allow non LG paladins that's fine.
Now I would get behind the multi god ideal and kinda thought the same way with paladins with no god. Someone has to grant his power after all of like last knights example he is incapable of falling as his god is ok with killing that last group of children they had it coming right :)
Excuse me, Where the hell do you get that from. I never once said have paladins that aren't lawful good. In fact if you knew anything about me I'm seriously opposed to paladins of other alignments. So don't you go giving me that BS.
You want to know my game? the elven goddess is actually a tree dryad that raised to divinity when she taught primitive elves the secrets of creating ironwood since elves are allergic to metal. She actually lives in the Elven City and has direct dealings with her people and they can actually meet her if they get to a position in the church. In my game world there are no evil gods because people don't go running around worshiping evil as a concept or idea. All the evil god BS is actually handled by demons/devils, and so there's no evil gods for my players to pick. You may not have been trying, but that statement seriously pissed me off when no one elses had, because if anything YOU are the one talking about his games. Unless you can show me in the rules the one step rule for paladins. Or the rule that says Gods directly tell people their alignments and everyone just knows it as fact. or any of the other silly arguement people have given me without actually citing the rules because that's how it works in their games, where aparently only clerics have divine power and have the words I'm a Cleric as a class not a description of my duties tatood on their forheads.
Excuse me, Where the hell do you get that from. I never once said have paladins that aren't lawful good. In fact if you knew anything about me I'm seriously opposed to paladins of other alignments. So don't you go giving me that BS.Ok guys we are not longer in RAW but last knights game. If he wants to allow non LG paladins that's fine.
Now I would get behind the multi god ideal and kinda thought the same way with paladins with no god. Someone has to grant his power after all of like last knights example he is incapable of falling as his god is ok with killing that last group of children they had it coming right :)
Dude, your paladin can comment the most foul and evil thing and he will never fall..his god wont allow it..he is so delusional that he thinks he severs a good god when in fact he does not...4 days in any city that has temples of him will tell him that
He may be LG at level 1 but by level 5 he is LN at best. He can not act out his gods will and take place in his gods most holy rites and be unaffected Using the AL system
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Dude, your paladin can comment the most foul and evil thing and he will never fall..his god wont allow it..he is so delusional that he thinks he severs a good god when in fact he does not...4 days in any city that has temples of him will tell him that
Once again, your talking about your world, your gods, your most holy rituals. in fact name the most holy ritual for an evil god of the sun, what about the evil goddess of the sea? can you... thought not.
Once again, your talking about your world, your gods, your most holy rituals. in fact name the most holy ritual for an evil god of the sun, what about the evil goddess of the sea? can you... thought not.
Dude, your paladin can comment the most foul and evil thing and he will never fall..his god wont allow it..he is so delusional that he thinks he severs a good god when in fact he does not...4 days in any city that has temples of him will tell him that
well you used Asmodeus and he requires blood blood sacrifice human or intelligent life. Devil;s are often summoned to take part in such a thing... so yeah he would know.
Historically what we would call evil had human sacrifice, Sun cults often burned or left people in the sun to die, sea cults often drowned folks...yeah so not evil that :)
Your talking about your world man,where you play AL very, very loose. Not a generic one where it is not loose
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Oh man I'm getting tired of talking to a brick wall so I'm breaking from all individual points and just listing the facts.
Paladins can worship whatever god they want by the core rules.
There are no rules saying that a gods alignment dictates the practices of their followers other than those specific followers who have cleric class levels.
Dependant on setting but still going by core rules. You can have people two groups of people, one group says the god is lawful good, one group says the god is chaotic evil. Both groups can have divine spellcasters that have their powers, both can have clerics that channel energy to prove their point. Only one group will have actual Clerics (the class) of that diety. For the rest of the world, good luck identifying who's telling the truth and whos actually just faking it.
If you can disprove any of the above statements I'd be glad to hear it.
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Your talking about your world man,where you play AL very, very loose. Not a generic one where it is not loose
Actually I play alignment very straight and pretty hardcore. Nothing I've said contradicts a set alignment system. Where action dictate alignment.
Also I used satan, who doesn't actually have a set dogma or pattern of behavior other than being an evil, and a tricky bastard. Asmodeus I said was a parallel, because he is, but not the same and I'm not actually sure of Asmodeus's rituals and stuff as I'm trying not to read too many of my modules in case my player may want to run one :)
As for the sun and water gods, they could indeed do that, but there's no rule saying it's required.
Actually I play alignment very straight and pretty hardcore. Nothing I've said contradicts a set alignment system. Where action dictate alignment.
Your talking about your world man,where you play AL very, very loose. Not a generic one where it is not loose
sigh..but you fallow worship and bring people to a well known evil god, you would have to take place in the blood rites at some point..and yeah satan would never ever let you loose your powers no matter how vile and act you did in his name..he wants you corrupt.
By the AL system you can not fallow and evil god very long and stay good, unless the world allows it.
But we are off field here. So I am gonna drop it. You can do however you like.
On the doma..yeah he does..and so do many cults of satan even the "good" ones historically anyhow,But so did early Christianity. The AL system brakes down on historical stuff really.
I guess for me It's really a sticking point I can not allow or see how anyone could allow even a LG fighter fallowing an evil god.
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Okay, two gods that can be considered evil but their listed AL says the are not: Nethys and Gozreh.
Nethys: God of Magic
How many spells actually help you in day-to-day life?
Now how many are there that kill, destroy, summon, or allow you to basically take control of a sentient creature?
Gozreh: God of nature, weather, and the sea.
Not everthing that is natural is good for you(earthquakes, wolves, humans).
Extreme weather can kill(floods, droughts, etc).
People die at sea all the time, from many different things(starvation, dehydration, sharks, drowning, etc.)
Can a paladin still worship them? Yes, in theory.
Does that stop the fact they can be considered evil gods? No.
Can a paladin still worship them? Yes, in theory.
I would say no. It's more then one step and the PFCS uses 1 step..look up every single god listed..1 step
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I thought someone might say that, so...
Sarenrae: Goddess of Sun, Redemption, Honesty, and Healing.
People can die from sun exposure.
Redemption can lead to revenge and murder.
Honesty doesn't always set you free. It can land you in prison, or get you killed.
Healing through magic is unnatural. Healing someone against their will isn't good(the fact that most cure spells are touch spells doesn't help either.)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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sigh..but you follow, worship, and bring people to a well known Evil god; you would have to take place in the blood rites at some point. And yeah, Satan would never ever let you lose your powers no matter how vile an act you did in his name; he wants you corrupt.By the AL system you can not follow an Evil god very long and stay Good, unless the world allows it.
...
I guess for me It's really a sticking point; I can not allow or see how anyone could allow even a LG fighter following an Evil god.
Hi, Seeker. I guess you and I are reading different things into Last Knight's position.
LKL, correct me if I'm getting something wrong:
A paladin is being lied to. He's mistaken, but only about the real personality of a divine being. Otherwise, the paladin is committing the same Good deeds in the same Lawful manner as any other paladin. (Indeed, the Evil hierarchy might well be sending him off to kill some demons or rout out some Chaotic bandits somewhere...)
It would be like an honorable Samurai, mistakenly believing that his Daimyo is a righteous lord.
Other people have argued that the Evil deity wouldn't put up with having a LG follower. But LKL is arguing that it's plausible, because the paladin's essentially building a good reputation for Evil God X, which might make the average citizenry more likely to place their trust in the Evil church, or make pacts with allied devils.
He's not arguing that the paladin in question is Lawful Evil.
I'm betting that, once the paladin has evidence that his beloved old god really is an Infernal fiend, who'd been riding him all along, the paladin might have a smidgin of vengeance welling in his heart.
And, for what it's worth, I'd remind you that "Savage Tide" involved the party in the internal working of the Abyss, where the PCs--including the paladins-- were allying themselves with one faction of Chaotic Evil demons, against a more immediate threat. That was a knowing alliance. This seems to be even more innocent.
But, LKL, do I assume correctly that you keep to strict enough alignments such that, the first time the paladin is ordered to do something that violates his holy oath -- such as behave dishonorably, or use cowardly tools like poison, he would need to atone for his actions?
I thought someone might say that, so...
Sarenrae: Goddess of Sun, Redemption, Honesty, and Healing.
People can die from sun exposure.
Redemption can lead to revenge and murder.
Honesty doesn't always set you free. It can land you in prison, or get you killed.
Healing through magic is unnatural. Healing someone against their will isn't good(the fact that most cure spells are touch spells doesn't help either.)
Heh now your nit picking. people die alot of stupid ways its not the suns fault if ya don't get out of the sun
She is still a NG god. Now sun god of the harsh unrelenting part of the sun would not be good.
Say what ya will the PFCS still uses 1 step.
Hi, Seeker. I guess you and I are reading different things into Last Knight's position.
You might be right, but lied to or not he can find out very very easy. He does not even have to look.Like I said it's his game
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Heh now your nit picking. people die alot of stupid ways its not the suns fault if ya don't get out of the sun
She is still a NG god. Now sun god of the harsh unrelenting part of the sun would not be good.
Now who's nitpicking? Your saying a god of the sun, isn't using the the entire possible description of the sun.
She is a god of the sun, not the god of only the nice warm sun that help things grow.
Heh now your nit picking. people die alot of stupid ways its not the suns fault if ya don't get out of the sun
She is still a NG god. Now sun god of the harsh unrelenting part of the sun would not be good.
Now who's nitpicking? Your saying a god of the sun, isn't using the the entire possible description of the sun.
She is a god of the sun, not the god of only the nice warm sun that help things grow.
No not just the nice warm things, she also can be harsh but that is not what she embraces she is a Neutral god after all but embraces good, and redemption and so on and so forth...Read about the god.
Sure you could twist her teachings to evil but she wont grant you spells, and you would not be her paladin and she would most likly send clerics to redeem you or put you down.
The fact remains that she is NG, nit picking aside she is NG not N and not NE
So your saying that people can't be wrong about a diety? Sounds like YOUR game involves everyone knowing the exact AL of the gods. And of course that gods punish those worshipping them differently by not granting them spells. Does this mean discrimanation is okay in your games?*
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Nope they can be wrong, but will not grain class powers...Sure I am a paladin of Satan..sure the devil gives me love and powers and hey does not care if I don't use that silly Code thing..need help killing them puppys?
You are in charge of the character..In the setting gods do not grant power to people more then 1 step.why would they grant powers to people ho do not believe what they preach?
Evil gods do not have paladins....that simple. It should not need to say that. Just like it should not NEED to say 1 step. Show me one canon paladin pathfinder,3.5 or 3.0 that gains all his powers worships a evil god ? Just one
Hell show me one beside Sune(which the books says is the one and only exception) that is more then 1 step
... And of course that gods punish those worshipping them differently by not granting them spells ...
Actually, this is part of the core rules.
I won't deny that there are lots of roleplaying opportunities when there's a paladin with an evil god deceiving them, but you also have to figure out what's in it for the evil god. Are they a chessmaster or a pantomime villain? And what exactly constitutes evil these days anyway?
One of the troubles with an evil god sponsoring a paladin is that paladins have this virtue and goodness that shines out of them like a beacon, inspires allies and does other nifty stuff, and there's a question of where in the Hell (literally) an evil god is getting this good power to funnel through their paladin patsy.
Unless you go with a Ravenloft sort of cosmology, where the Dark Powers run everything but people who worship divine powers get their prayers answered anyway and actual good magic comes through (unless it's twisted by the inherent evil of the place), this probably doesn't work.
There's also the theological trouble with an evil god trying to get good PR by sponsoring a paladin, where the paladin would have to be fed some artfully constructed twaddle about the goodness of his god, including appropriate made-up miracles, and then when out in the real world running into evidence of the evil of his god, including blasphemous crimes, and then coming to the erroneous (but by no means unreasonable) conclusion that we've got two different god with similar iconography and names but they are completely separate. Santa is not Satan. St. Nick is not the same as Old Nick. And the man in the red suit? Well, which man in which red suit?
And wouldn't it be just like some good trickster god to tell the deluded paladin that the old St. Nick is sick, so the paladin needs to take his place? Congratulations, Satan, your made-up twaddle just got appropriated by Good.
Fharlanghn's portfolio includes adventurers. Paladins can be adventurers. A paladin of Fharlanghn is one who protects fellow adventurers and travellers while away(or sometimes in) cities.
source? Thats vague I need a source and an example. Where does it say he has paladins among his clergy?
Edit. He is N and as far as I can find anywhere does not in fact have paladins among his clergy. So your example is wrong
My point stills stands. Discrimanation is wrong.... And of course that gods punish those worshipping them differently by not granting them spells ...Actually, this is part of the core rules.
Your point was off. A LG god is not gonna allow CE clergy. Gods have rules they have to go by same as everyone else.
Its not discrimination it's the rules you fallow them or you do not. A god will not grant a cleric his spells if he no longer fallows that gods teachings
o.O
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Fharlanghn's portfolio includes adventurers. Paladins can be adventurers. A paladin of Fharlanghn is one who protects fellow adventurers and travellers while away(or sometimes in) cities.source? Thats vague I need a source and an example. Where does it say he has paladins among his clergy?
Edit. He is N and as far as I can find anywhere does not in fact have paladins among his clergy. So your example is wrong
My source is the 3.5 Player's Handbook, like you asked for. Fharlanghn's portfolio says he is the god of adventurers. Now, if paladins are not adventurers, I'll concede.
The 3.0 Hero Builder's Guide states the Corellon has elven paladins, for what its worth. Not a big deal, just a point of trivia (and it somewhat fits with the fact that in 2nd edition Corellon could have LG clerics and crusaders, even though elves couldn't be paladins in that edition).
My source is the 3.5 Player's Handbook, like you asked for. Fharlanghn's portfolio says he is the god of adventurers. Now, if paladins are not adventurers, I'll concede.Fharlanghn's portfolio includes adventurers. Paladins can be adventurers. A paladin of Fharlanghn is one who protects fellow adventurers and travellers while away(or sometimes in) cities.source? Thats vague I need a source and an example. Where does it say he has paladins among his clergy?
Edit. He is N and as far as I can find anywhere does not in fact have paladins among his clergy. So your example is wrong
Ype h\e is he is however not a god of paladins so do not have paladins among his clergy. Just like a god of blue eyed people that is NE does not have paladins just because they are blue eyed.
Your looking for a loophole and have failed so far
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Its not discrimination it's the rules you follow them or you do not. A god will not grant a cleric his spells if he no longer fallows that gods teachings.
Time to bring a point to veiw from a source I dislike... The Bible.
One of the Ten Commandments say that it is wrong to kill, another says adultery is wrong. I am not arguing that they are not. Yet believers will still recieve miracles when they are truly needed, even if they are murderers and cheaters.
I would also like to state that I did not once say the paladin in question no longer followed his/hers god's teachings, only that they veiwed them differently. Take a nerf for example. People say they are bad, people say they are good. Does it mean their beliefs are wrong?
I think we are rapidly approaching the argument of what is is . . .
The 3.0 Hero Builder's Guide states the Corellon has elven paladins, for what its worth. Not a big deal, just a point of trivia (and it somewhat fits with the fact that in 2nd edition Corellon could have LG clerics and crusaders, even though elves couldn't be paladins in that edition).
Now that one I can go with, he is CG however not evil but that does fit his profile much like Sune. I would place him as an exception
On an kinda unrelated note ...does it bug anyone else elves had no none chaotic gods? I mean to me Corellon never came off as CG I mean why do all freaking elf gods need be Chaotic?
I think we are rapidly approaching the argument of what is is . . .
So true knight, paladins threads seem to do that all to often. I guess that is a good thing as we get to see how other people see things that to us are very clear.
There were two NG minor gods in the Seldarine, originally published in Dragon Magazine in the 2nd edition days. One was the goddess of benevolent magic and the other was the patron of bladesingers and swordsmen.
I think we are rapidly approaching the argument of what is is . . .
It's not likely to get prettier from this point, I'd say.
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Ype h\e is he is however not a god of paladins so do not have paladins among his clergy. Just like a god of blue eyed people that is NE does not have paladins just because they are blue eyed.
Your looking for a loophole and have failed so far
The 3.5 Player's Handbook also lists Pelor as a god paladins can worship. His portfolio is rangers and bards. Are you saying the 3.5 PHB is wrong for saying this because Pelor is not a god of paladins?
Baccob is the god of wizards, sorcerers, and sages. Sages are wise people that are sometimes said to be able to cast spells. In 3.5 paladins needed wisdom to cast their spells. Even if they hadn't needed wisdom, paladins are sages of their gods.
My point stills stands. Discrimanation is wrong.... And of course that gods punish those worshipping them differently by not granting them spells ...Actually, this is part of the core rules.Your point was off. A LG god is not gonna allow CE clergy. Gods have rules they have to go by same as everyone else.
Its not discrimination it's the rules you fallow them or you do not. A god will not grant a cleric his spells if he no longer fallows that gods teachings
BTW, since it's not a one-time typo, please correct the following, because bad spelling makes me go cross-eyed:
"Follow" is a verb, meaning "to go after." As in "follow the leader" or "follow your god's teachings."
"Fallow" is an adjective, referring to fields that have been unplanted and unharvested for a season or more, but were formerly farmed.
Thanks.
The 3.5 Player's Handbook also lists Pelor as a god paladins can worship. His portfolio is rangers and bards. Are you saying the 3.5 PHB is wrong for saying this because Pelor is not a god of paladins?
Baccob is the god of wizards, sorcerers, and sages. Sages are wise people that are sometimes said to be able to cast spells. In 3.5 paladins needed wisdom to cast their spells. Even if they hadn't needed wisdom, paladins are sages of their gods.
Show me the paladin or where it says he has them. Then I'll say I was wrong
BTW, since it's not a one-time typo, please correct the following, because bad spelling makes me go cross-eyed:
Then do not read my posts man. I clean up what I catch which is alot, I am a horrible speller your just have to live with that
There were two NG minor gods in the Seldarine, originally published in Dragon Magazine in the 2nd edition days. One was the goddess of benevolent magic and the other was the patron of bladesingers and swordsmen.
Didn't read dragon back then but that is good to know. I did not read dragon back in 2e but that is nice to know
Eh, I think Chris Mortika made some of the most cogent points in this thread, and I probably didn't elaborate what I thought nearly as well as I would have liked.
I can understand a paladin without a specific patron, and can see that paladin as being guided by the "gods of order and goodness," without choosing one specific one as a patron.
I can also see that there might be some divine shenanigans involving granting powers to beings that don't match your traditional followers. Ed Greenwood mentioned this a few times at Candlekeep regarding things like Ur-Priests in the Realms (i.e. there are Ur-Priests, or were, but they can "steal" spells from the gods because some gods don't mind the havoc the Ur-Priests wreak, not because they can do it without the gods being able to do anything about it).
That having been said, your odd paladin of Asmodeus is going to be good for a very specific campaign that is tailored to deal with this odd bit of roleplaying, but won't work long term, and should probably be extremely rare, because eventually said paladin is going to feel the active presence of evil, because evil is a tangible force in Pathfinder (and D&D before it).
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Show me the paladin or where it says he has them. Then I'll say I was wrong
The 3.5 Player's Handbook also lists Pelor as a god paladins can worship. His portfolio is rangers and bards. Are you saying the 3.5 PHB is wrong for saying this because Pelor is not a god of paladins?
Baccob is the god of wizards, sorcerers, and sages. Sages are wise people that are sometimes said to be able to cast spells. In 3.5 paladins needed wisdom to cast their spells. Even if they hadn't needed wisdom, paladins are sages of their gods.
Pelor? It doesn't say he can have them.
I know who you mean. But as I have never purchased an AP I am being asked to do the impossible.
Hm... does this mean the Goddess will take away my spellcasting?
On an kinda unrelated note ...does it bug anyone else elves had no none chaotic gods? I mean to me Corellon never came off as CG I mean why do all freaking elf gods need be Chaotic?I never noticed that before, but you are right, that's annoying.
It is I mean I know the elves frolic naked and care free in the woods and all but couldn't they have 1 I mean just 1 non chaotic god? Even some elven civilizations such as Sun elves IN FR are more lawful and not very chaotic in mind set
Ya know guys I think we ran the OP off.
Is it possible for a Paladin to worship a LN god and remain LG?
Yes.
Perhaps the above was all that was required? ;)
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It is I mean I know the elves frolic naked and care free in the woods and all but couldn't they have 1 I mean just 1 non chaotic god? Even some elven civilizations such as Sun elves IN FR are more lawful and not very chaotic in mind setOn an kinda unrelated note ...does it bug anyone else elves had no none chaotic gods? I mean to me Corellon never came off as CG I mean why do all freaking elf gods need be Chaotic?I never noticed that before, but you are right, that's annoying.
Even the drow don't seem Chaotic to me, Evil, but not Chaotic.
On an kinda unrelated note ...does it bug anyone else elves had no none chaotic gods? I mean to me Corellon never came off as CG I mean why do all freaking elf gods need be Chaotic?I never noticed that before, but you are right, that's annoying.
Because you must be chaotic to build airy art nouveau palaces with immaculate lawns in the middle of the forest.
Pelor? It doesn't say he can have them.
I know who you mean. But as I have never purchased an AP I am being asked to do the impossible.
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Nah does not have to be AP, but anywhere you have seen one. That has been an unwritten rule since 2e really. Even people think it's a rule as it's so common. It is a good rule of thumb for playing in other folks games. FR was sure to point out the exceptions as have other things like knight pointed out above. But they point them out.
Most GM's wont blink an eye at bringing a paladin of a 1 step god to the table. More then one step and you get what the last 2 pages of this thread has been. debate
Perhaps the above was all that was required? ;)
Wheres the fun in that:)