Is it possible to build a potion or a wand with a Metamagic enhanced spell?
If so, what would be the mechanic for doing this? (Treat the Spell as its new level for time and cost?)
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Is it possible to build a potion or a wand with a Metamagic enhanced spell?
If so, what would be the mechanic for doing this? (Treat the Spell as its new level for time and cost?)
That's how my groups have always done it. The inherent level cap in potions and wands have always served to mitigate the increased power. It only became an issue when PC's reached epic level and a wizard took Improved Metamagic. This made it possible to make a maximized lightning bolt wand. The player ultimately decided against it when he saw my DM smile...
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Not sure if it's by the rules since I've never seen it done. But Why not?
Though it shouldn't be easy. A straight cost according to the effective level would be the easiest way to do it. Does PFRPG have any kind of 'custom magic item' rules? Like you could make a wrist item with powers normaly tied to a glove slot or something in 3.5 but it would cost more than the 'normal' item would. Something like that might apply.
Is it possible to build a potion or a wand with a Metamagic enhanced spell?
If so, what would be the mechanic for doing this? (Treat the Spell as its new level for time and cost?)
You used to be able to in 3.5. That's how it worked (i.e. a wand of extended mage armor would cost the same as a wand of any other 2nd level spell).
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You may craft a wand in this manner. For example:
Wand of Magic Missile (CL 1, SL 1) = 750 GP market price, DC 6 crafting check.
Wand of Empowered Magic Missile (CL 5, SL 3) = 11,250 GP market price, DC 10 crafting check.
As normal, you will need to be able to expend an Empowered Magic Missile each day of crafting to succeed.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
You may craft a wand in this manner. For example:
Wand of Magic Missile (CL 1, SL 1) = 750 GP market price, DC 6 crafting check.
Wand of Empowered Magic Missile (CL 5, SL 3) = 11,250 GP market price, DC 10 crafting check.
As normal, you will need to be able to expend an Empowered Magic Missile each day of crafting to succeed.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
I think the main question is, can you craft a Wand of Empowered Fireball ?
- Yes, because Fireball is originally a 3rd-level spell, so it's allowed by the rules
or
- No, because an Empowered Fireball uses a 5th-level slot, and so is unsuitable for putting it into a Wand (maximum level 4th)
I personally would answer 'NO', but this is effectively debatable...
You may craft a wand in this manner. For example:
Wand of Magic Missile (CL 1, SL 1) = 750 GP market price, DC 6 crafting check.
Wand of Empowered Magic Missile (CL 5, SL 3) = 11,250 GP market price, DC 10 crafting check.
As normal, you will need to be able to expend an Empowered Magic Missile each day of crafting to succeed.
Your God of Knowledge,
NethysI think the main question is, can you craft a Wand of Empowered Fireball ?
- Yes, because Fireball is originally a 3rd-level spell, so it's allowed by the rules
or
- No, because an Empowered Fireball uses a 5th-level slot, and so is unsuitable for putting it into a Wand (maximum level 4th)
I personally would answer 'NO', but this is effectively debatable...
But, then what about say ... Extended Fireball, which only raises the level by 1. So, it is a 4th level spell, and still fist under the cap?
But, then what about say ... Extended Fireball, which only raises the level by 1. So, it is a 4th level spell, and still fist under the cap?You may craft a wand in this manner. For example:
Wand of Magic Missile (CL 1, SL 1) = 750 GP market price, DC 6 crafting check.
Wand of Empowered Magic Missile (CL 5, SL 3) = 11,250 GP market price, DC 10 crafting check.
As normal, you will need to be able to expend an Empowered Magic Missile each day of crafting to succeed.
Your God of Knowledge,
NethysI think the main question is, can you craft a Wand of Empowered Fireball ?
- Yes, because Fireball is originally a 3rd-level spell, so it's allowed by the rules
or
- No, because an Empowered Fireball uses a 5th-level slot, and so is unsuitable for putting it into a Wand (maximum level 4th)
I personally would answer 'NO', but this is effectively debatable...
Following my previous example, yes, you can (and no, I'm not from USA ;) ... )
Of course, as Nethys previously said, the cost would be that of a 4th-level spell.
My main concern is when, combined together, a spell and Metamagic Feat (or more Metamagic Feats together) raise the total level above 4th - and I believe it's not possible (again, this is highly debatable...). Or we could have a Wand of Maximized, Silent, Extended Fireball (an 8th-level spell...) - highly costly, but REALLY powerful...
I would personally avoid 'Still Spell' on such items, however (it's useless to 'cast' a spell without somatic component while you are effectively waving a wand or drinking a potion)...
Also, I would recommend you not waste your time with Extended Fireballs. Doubling the duration of an instantaneous spell will not result in any change.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Of course you are right, I was thinking of Enlange Spell (a Fireball which could be thrown at 1000+ feet), but somehow I spoke of Extend Spell...
Also, I would recommend you not waste your time with Extended Fireballs. Doubling the duration of an instantaneous spell will not result in any change.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Oh? I thought that was "Enduring" and that "Extend" doubled the Range. Sorry, my error.
The wand's total effective spell level cannot be higher than 4th level. So while an Empowered Fireball wand would not be possible, a 3rd level spell with "Extend" on (effective 4th) would be possible.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
One of my players is going to ask for justification for this, since this is specifically not mentioned in the PRD as far as I can see.
From the Pathfinder RPG Reference document:
"While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."
Done.
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The wand's total effective spell level cannot be higher than 4th level. So while an Empowered Fireball wand would not be possible, a 3rd level spell with "Extend" on (effective 4th) would be possible.
Your God of Knowledge,
NethysOne of my players is going to ask for justification for this, since this is specifically not mentioned in the PRD as far as I can see.
From the Pathfinder RPG Reference document:
"While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."
Done.
My guess is that "normal" refers to the spell's original level (ie, you can place a 4-th level equivalent metamagicked spell, which is normally 1st-level, in a wand) and not to the level limit of the wand itself (ie no metamagicked spell which is equivalent to an 5+th-level spell can be placed in a wand).
Hope it helps.
Would one count the level the caster would cast it at including feats and features that reduce the effective metamagic level during the creation process?
This thread is 4 years old.
But no. Magical lineage or wayang spell hunter do not apply when making magical items.
When you make a wand or scrolls (or any magical item) with a spell with metamagic you do not get to apply your other feats or traits to enhance those items.
Not unless they specifically say you do. There are feats and abilities that specifically effect your use of spell trigger and spell completion items, such as a wands and scrolls respectively. However, they are the exception, and not the norm.
Fats and abilities that effect your spellcasting, such as Spell Focus, Spell Perfection or Spell Specialization, simply do not apply to such items (except for staffs, which are an exception to the general rule).
Magical lineage or wayang spell hunter do not apply when making magical items.
I'm looking around and I don't see anywhere where it says this. Do you have a quote or link to where that would be?
*taps microphone*
Is this thing on?
Magical lineage or wayang spell hunter do not apply when making magical items.I'm looking around and I don't see anywhere where it says this. Do you have a quote or link to where that would be?
Technically you could apply those traits, but any sane GM will just laugh at you if you ask to do so.
It's a simple matter of logic.
If Magical Lineage COULD be applied, then somewhere someone would be doing it. His magic items would be more powerful than anyone else's similar items, for the same price.
He would dominate the market.
But then...
Others would catch on. They would figure out how to get Magical Lineage for themselves. Maybe the retraining rules, or use a Wish, or scour the planes for random people born with Magical Lineage and recruit (or force) them to make magic items.
Pretty soon everyone would be doing it - it would be the only way to be competitive.
Logical conclusion: if this were possible, then the above scenario would have happened thousands of years ago and every magic item made in the last few dozen centuries would have been made this way.
Since it's obvious that not every item is made this way (in fact, none of them are), then this must not be possible at all.
Er... I think that logic has some flaws. Copper and tin was available for a fair few thousand years before anyone thought to use bronze rather than flint when making tools, after all.
Er... I think that logic has some flaws. Copper and tin was available for a fair few thousand years before anyone thought to use bronze rather than flint when making tools, after all.
But I am sure once the first person did it others would do it also if they could do it with the same ease, which is what he was getting at.
What you are discussing is someone being able to figure out a process. In PF the process is already know. It is just a matter of applying it or not applying it.
Needing to figure something out is not even remotely close to knowing you can do it, and choosing not to "just because".
Also those traits don't change the level of the spell or slot with regard to its actual value. They change the slot that is used. Magic items go by the spell levels and slots, not what you use.
As an example an empowered fireball is still going to take a 5th level spell for the purpose of the slot it uses. The trait just allows you to use a lesser slot to cast it. Nowhere in the magic item rules does it mention your resource used as a factor. What it does list is the spell level, and metamagic feats increase the virtual level of a spell.
I feel no qualms about resurrecting this thread again, since I'm researching for a necromancer.
My comment on the matter, Magical Lineage reads:
When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
That would indicate to me that an enlarged fireball via ML trait is, at the end of the day, considered a level 3 spell (or in the case of my interest, a reaching vampiric touch). The use of 'final adjusted level' is, to me, the key language.
If your GM lets that fly, go for your life.
Whether it is strictly allowable by the rules (hugely debatable, but there is almost an argument) is largely irrelevant, as pointed out above no sane GM should allow this.