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It would be interesting to know more about dead gods and what is left of their cults, as cultural backgrpound and because there are soem aspects that woulbe interest to lots of us to knows...
gods like: Aroden, Arazni, Curchanus, Vyriavaxus (ok ok demon), Thassilonean Dead Gods, etc
so Wes what do you say can Sean write this?
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It would be interesting to know more about dead gods and what is left of their cults, as cultural backgrpound and because there are soem aspects that woulbe interest to lots of us to knows...
gods like: Aroden, Arazni, Curchanus, Vyriavaxus (ok ok demon), Thassilonean Dead Gods, etc
so Wes what do you say can Sean write this?
especially since we will be tested on them at next years PaizoCon...
Except I'm not dead.
Have an article about gods who take a time out. That's me. I'll be back. I just don't say when, to keep you slackers on your toes.
"Aroden is coming. Look busy!"
This would be really cool. However, I'd like to see the living ones, in the AP issues, finished up first. Or if you were going to hit them all in one big article, like what was done with the Demon Lords, that would be great too.
This would be really cool. However, I'd like to see the living ones, in the AP issues, finished up first. Or if you were going to hit them all in one big article, like what was done with the Demon Lords, that would be great too.
I don't think you have anything to worry about, in terms of Paizo changing their existing format of two comprehensive living diety write-ups per AP.
Having said that, Wes, I'd like to see an article on Dead Gods.
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This would be really cool. However, I'd like to see the living ones, in the AP issues, finished up first. Or if you were going to hit them all in one big article, like what was done with the Demon Lords, that would be great too.
after asking about this to James in the Paizochat, definitively it would have to be a big article for them all, and not one-on-one article... since they are dead they don't demand that much attention, still knowing something abit more profound about them, their clergy, domains, portfolio, etc would be nice.
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Os
Os is a generic term for all the dead gods who have seemingly melted into one being now all but forgotten. Considered a Spirit of the past, Os is only remembered by the symbols carved into the stone Doorstep of homes to ward off Evil. Visitors bow to the symbols to show respect for the Household.
Domain: God of Men and Demons
Alignment: None
Clerics: Rare, usually some other God, with Os as a secondary veneration.
Followers: Stone Cutters and Traditionalist Peasants
Creative Director
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If we do an article on dead gods, it would be one article covering them all, and it would NOT be part of the series of articles Sean's writing for the actual living gods. It'd be a standalone article, and it should also probably tie in to the adventure path somehow... since we generally don't do much with dead gods (mostly because their clerics can't cast spells and don't really have much power), it might be difficult arranging a place for such an article to show up.
That said... why the interest in dead gods in particular?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That said... why the interest in dead gods in particular?
Can't speak for the OP, but I think an article on dead gods would be interesting because the mechanics of dead gods (including how exactly a god dies) is a topic of interest in general. If you know which gods died and how they died, that gives you the tools to build a campaign around ressurecting a dead god, or learning about how a god died in order to kill a living god, or do any other number of epic things.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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learning about how a god died in order to kill a living godOh, THAT? THAT'S easy... you just cross the streams, causing a total protonic reversal that reverses the particle flow through the gate.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Do you think I'd ever answer the question in your first spoiler "no"?
Can't speak for the OP, but I think an article on dead gods would be interesting because the mechanics of dead gods (including how exactly a god dies) is a topic of interest in general. If you know which gods died and how they died, that gives you the tools to build a campaign around ressurecting a dead god, or learning about how a god died in order to kill a living god, or do any other number of epic things.
That said... why the interest in dead gods in particular?
Seconded! I have a character that might just need that information about how gods die . . . not to mention that the passing of a god is an event of historical significance. Gods dying influences civilization as we know it, and thus helps us understand how societies reached their current status.
But mostly, I wanna know how they die, I admit.
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Creative Director
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Can't speak for the OP, but I think an article on dead gods would be interesting because the mechanics of dead gods (including how exactly a god dies) is a topic of interest in general. If you know which gods died and how they died, that gives you the tools to build a campaign around ressurecting a dead god, or learning about how a god died in order to kill a living god, or do any other number of epic things.
That said... why the interest in dead gods in particular?Seconded! I have a character that might just need that information about how gods die . . . not to mention that the passing of a god is an event of historical significance. Gods dying influences civilization as we know it, and thus helps us understand how societies reached their current status.
But mostly, I wanna know how they die, I admit.
That's not something a single article can really cover, though. There's countless ways for mortals to die: shark bites, leprosy, explosive decompression, drowning, rattlesnake venom, being stabbed with a broken pool cue, trampled by a riot, falling from a ladder, volcanic explosion, old age, etc. etc.
There's just as many ways for gods to die too. The ramifications on what happens to a faith when a god dies is much more interesting.
Actually, wasn't there a Monte Cook book about this topic?
That's not something a single article can really cover, though. There's countless ways for mortals to die: shark bites, leprosy, explosive decompression, drowning, rattlesnake venom, being stabbed with a broken pool cue, trampled by a riot, falling from a ladder, volcanic explosion, old age, etc. etc.
There's just as many ways for gods to die too. The ramifications on what happens to a faith when a god dies is much more interesting.
Actually, wasn't there a Monte Cook book about this topic?
Yes, there was. But the Paizo take on things would be interesting to see.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That's not something a single article can really cover, though. There's countless ways for mortals to die: shark bites, leprosy, explosive decompression, drowning, rattlesnake venom, being stabbed with a broken pool cue, trampled by a riot, falling from a ladder, volcanic explosion, old age, etc. etc.There's just as many ways for gods to die too. The ramifications on what happens to a faith when a god dies is much more interesting.
Right, but the various ways a mortal can die are very familiar to us as mortals. Gods are supposed to be immortal, and the fact that they can die must be pursuant to some exception to that immortality. I wouldn't expect gods to die from falling from a ladder and, if they can be killed by such means, it'd be interesting to hear about it.
Also, there are rules to the way mortals die. You inflict sufficient damage to their bodies causing one or more major organs to fail, and death results. The ways you can inflict damage are well known. You can also cut off their air flow and cause them to suffocate. They can suffer diseases that disrupt the function of their organs.
Do gods have organs? Can they be harmed by mundane implements? Can they suffer diseases? Is there a relationship between the followers of a god and its ability to die (or not die)? Given that there are no (known) harmable gods in our universe, these questions do not have a clear answer.
So, even if the article states something like "gods can only be killed with special weapons made from toe nail fungus and cookie dough or diseases that affect dolphins" that at least conveys some useful information.
Actually, wasn't there a Monte Cook book about this topic?
Probably, but I'd also be interested in the official Paizo view, particularly since the death of a god features so prominently in the history of Cheliax and the disruption of prophesies.
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Creative Director
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Further complicating matters is that in order to know how gods can die, we kind of have to know how they can live, avoid dying, recover and heal, and all that. This starts to get into some territory that leads one down the path toward doing stat blocks for gods, and with the exception of demigods, that's not something we're interested in.
In other words... it's a tricky topic.
since they are dead they don't demand that much attention
I DEMAND ATTENTION.
Of course, I'm not dead.
since they are dead they don't demand that much attentionI DEMAND ATTENTION.
Of course, I'm not dead.
Really, I feel fine. I want to go for a walk!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Further complicating matters is that in order to know how gods can die, we kind of have to know how they can live, avoid dying, recover and heal, and all that. This starts to get into some territory that leads one down the path toward doing stat blocks for gods, and with the exception of demigods, that's not something we're interested in.
In other words... it's a tricky topic.
Which is why we pay you to write something cool about it. ;-)
It is a tricky topic, and one that is frequently punted by almost all game designers for good reason. Once you start mapping out everything that makes a god work, they lose a lot of their power and become just another set of stat blocks. I guess that's why I'd be interested in a general article about how prior gods died - that saves you from having to come up with a system for how gods eat, poop, die, etc., but provides some concrete examples of how a particular god did die and gives me some inspiration for my own deicides (or some background for my players).
There's countless ways for mortals to die: shark bites, leprosy, explosive decompression, drowning, rattlesnake venom, being stabbed with a broken pool cue, trampled by a riot, falling from a ladder, volcanic explosion, old age, etc. etc.There's just as many ways for gods to die too.
So, for brainstorming reasons, let's get the list started. Ways for a god to die
Godshart bites, divine leprosy, explosive decompression of the universe, drowning in ambrosia, gotbeast rattlesnake venob, being stabbed with a broken cue from the Great Pool Hall In the Sky, trampled by a riot made up of stampeding godlings, falling from Jacob's Ladder (not to be confused with the James Jacobs Ladder), Deific Volcano Explosion, old world-age.
James,
Sebastian answered this pretty well as far as I am concerned, but I want to chime in and put my own two cents in.
Take a look look at the dead Thassalonian gods for example.
The World hasn't killed off some (or all) of the Runelords. It surely has not scourged creation of their monuments and artifacts.
But some of their gods dry up and blow away?
That's interesting! That says something about the nature of certain divine mysteries.
And honestly, when you kicked off the current Age with Aroden, it honestly set the stage for people to be curious on the subject material.
On a different but related side note of concern: I know not to expect all, or even most mysteries to be answered. You're going to want to leave some unanswered questions for GMs to answer for themselves in their own campaigns, or to leave yourself and Wes some room for future adventures and/or books. I expect that, and I'm good with it.
But when it comes to the topic of Divine Mysteries, there is a tendancy to devote a lot of words to "what nobody knows", "scholars can only speculate", and "even the gods were shocked". That is vague hints that emphasize what is never going to be explained or understood rather than actual content. I'd like you and Wes to watch out for that.
I realize you have to do some of that, but I ask for it to be sparing, or at least in moderation.
Further complicating matters is that in order to know how gods can die, we kind of have to know how they can live, avoid dying, recover and heal, and all that. This starts to get into some territory that leads one down the path toward doing stat blocks for gods, and with the exception of demigods, that's not something we're interested in.
In other words... it's a tricky topic.
Again, Sebastian has the right of it. That's the cool stuff we pay you to write.
But that cynicism aside, you had to realize that you were opening this can of worms with Aroden, and the Starstone itself?
I'm not advocating God Stat Blocks, or the like.. But contemplating the nature of divinity in the campaign does not equate to actually developing system to support it. You've drawn a rather clear line in the sand with no god stat blocks. No one can make you cross that line.
Oh, THAT? THAT'S easy... you just cross the streams, causing a total protonic reversal that reverses the particle flow through the gate.
Important safety tip, thanks Cosmo.
Actually, part of why I would be interested in this topics is because there is a Malhavoc book on the subject. Requiem for a God was an interesting book, and I loved the Necrotheologists in it, and Necrotheologists need dead gods . . .
I prefer to think that each god has a unique way that they can be killed, much like liches have to walk their own path to lichdom. Finding that way to off a deity would certainly be a fun (and epic) quest for a party of committed adventurers.
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Creative Director
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Dead and dying gods is a classic and very interesting trope of fantasy fiction. It's included in the game because of that. It's also one of countless parts of the world we've not yet talked about in great detail, and since we've already done a big deity book (which talked a little bit about dead gods), there's not really all that much in the immediate future to serve as a logical and organic place to talk more about this topic. With the exception of the Pathfinder APs. And before we can do an article about dead gods in an AP, the AP itself needs to have elements in it where that would be a logical addition.
The Council of Thieves AP, which is set in Westcrown, which is where Aroden was supposed to manifest before he died, has that theme to a certain extent. But we've already got all the articles for Council of Thieves nailed down, so there's no room there. Kingmaker doesn't have much to do at all with dead gods, so there's no room there for an article either.
The AP after Kingmaker might have something to do with dead gods, but I'm not going to force that topic/theme into an AP unless it makes sense.
So while I do agree that it's a good topic to talk about, and I hear the fact that some folks are interested, I can't just push a button and make it happen—especially since in order to talk more about it we have to (at least internally) know more about how it works than we'd need to reveal in a short article.
Again, it's a complicated topic. I'd say it's actually just as complex as Epic rules and Mass Combat rules and Psionic rules, to be honest, and we wouldn't just throw out an 8 page article about those either unless we were confident that those 8 pages would mesh well with the rest of the elements that might not see print for a while.
I'm not hesitant to do an article on this topic because it's popular, in other words.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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No worries from me - it's not something I'm dying to have, I was just trying to respond to the question of what was interesting about the topic. I'd much rather have you release an 8 page article which has a larger fully fleshed out system behind it than fire and forget something that will just be retconned by a future release.
Keep up the good work, and seriously, you guys need a day off. You've been pushing yourselves so hard from day one, and it's only gotten more intense since you've picked up the enormous burden of keeping 3.5 alive post-WotC and begun building the best living campaign I've yet to see. I don't want to see you burn out, and if that means you reduce output to regain your sanity and maybe spend an hour or two awake and out of the office, I think that's a worthwhile investment.
You guys really really really deserve a day off. Take the seventh day and get some rest. Please!
That's pretty reasonable.
Eh.. And we got some glimpses into the First World, possibly, with KingMaker.
No dead gods this year, but maybe we get some beautifully horrific Fey instead.
"Sometimes you get what you need."
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That's not something a single article can really cover, though. There's countless ways for mortals to die: shark bites, leprosy, explosive decompression, drowning, rattlesnake venom, being stabbed with a broken pool cue, trampled by a riot, falling from a ladder, volcanic explosion, old age, etc. etc.
There's just as many ways for gods to die too. The ramifications on what happens to a faith when a god dies is much more interesting.
Actually, wasn't there a Monte Cook book about this topic?
The two parts I would like to see on dead gods would be.
1) What happens to a faith when a god dies. Clerics ect.
2) What was their powers and influences and what was they like. Incase i want to use them as living gods instead. Just to shake things up after my players get use to the world setting.
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That said... why the interest in dead gods in particular?
I myself I am much more interested in 2 things about a dead god... how he did lived and afected the world... Aroden's influence is still felt to this day...
but more importantly how his religion worked, his/her relationship with men/demihuman/monsters...
If I put a lost temple of a dead and forgotten god in the middle of the dessert it would be cool to have somewhere from where tot ake information for depiction of murals, holy writings, clothes and armors of their clergy or sacred items for the faith...
and while I can do it myself for gods I create, I would love to have Paizo'z (Sean's) impresion on the particular gods that died in Golarion... what happened to their people... what is left of their cult... how this afected the world...
how a god dies? meh that is cheating... I knwo everyone WANTS to know how Aroden died... but that will kill the mistery... and we all know how Curculain and Arazni died... grievous wounds by inhuman beings. as you said they die like any other mortal... just its a lot more difficult, needs alot of power and it is not nice :P
those are at least my reason to ask for an article about Dead Gods... ideas about what is elft of their cults... their relics... and how their passing afected and still afects the world.
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Creative Director
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That's pretty reasonable.
Eh.. And we got some glimpses into the First World, possibly, with KingMaker.
No dead gods this year, but maybe we get some beautifully horrific Fey instead.
"Sometimes you get what you need."
Actually, there's a LOT of First World stuff going to be happening in Kingmaker. Support articles, NPCs, new monsters, etc. Of course, it's been about a year since we first realized that the tidbits we were dropping about the First World were really intriguing folks... and it'll be about another year before those things are all in print... but we'll get there eventually.
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I'm not advocating God Stat Blocks, or the like.. But contemplating the nature of divinity in the campaign does not equate to actually developing system to support it. You've drawn a rather clear line in the sand with no god stat blocks. No one can make you cross that line.
no, they had Aroden and the Starstone as plot tools :P
but yes... I know we all want one of this day a reference boof for the Starstone test... but as it changes... it would be interesting a series of ideas, some unconected maps... test, tricks, tramps... that could appear...
basicallly you 3 are asking for Paizo to reveal the mysteries that give interest to Golarion...
also many gods died afte being biten/poisoned/mauled/pummeled/munched by Rovagug...
when gods die... the important is not how, or sometimes even why... but as Jacobs said... what happens to what they have created... to their followers, to their agenda...
those are topics thar demand attention
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when gods die... the important is not how, or sometimes even why... but as Jacobs said... what happens to what they have created... to their followers, to their agenda...
What happened in the Belgariand: the minor clerics go on being a bureacracy keeping folks in line while the clerics at the top selfindulge in all the things they we forbidden from doing when their god was alive, some give up, and a few wander off and find a demon they can get their power from.
no, they had Aroden and the Starstone as plot tools :P
I don't understand your post. You start with a contradiction, but I have no idea what you're disagreeing with.
I said Aroden and the Starstone quite natually fostered curiousity in what happens when gods die. I stand behind that statement as reasonable.
They might be plot tools, sure, but that isn't exclusive to what I said.
but yes... I know we all want one of this day a reference boof for the Starstone test... but as it changes... it would be interesting a series of ideas, some unconected maps... test, tricks, tramps... that could appear...
Again, I suppose it would be nice to see such a book, but I didn't ask for one.
basicallly you 3 are asking for Paizo to reveal the mysteries that give interest to Golarion...
You're coming close to telling me what I think and what I mean.
You're a fine person, Montalve, but step back please. Do not presume.
No worries from me - it's not something I'm dying to have, I was just trying to respond to the question of what was interesting about the topic. I'd much rather have you release an 8 page article which has a larger fully fleshed out system behind it than fire and forget something that will just be retconned by a future release.
I agree. I'd like to see the topic at some point in time, but its not a "must have" at this very moment. I was just posting to say, "yeah, if you do it, definitely interested to see it."
That said... why the interest in dead gods in particular?
umm. Planescape?
As far as my group is concerned, Pathfinder's the next best thing. Maybe better. We're just waiting for more stuff on the Great Beyond.
Oh, THAT? THAT'S easy... you just cross the streams, causing a total protonic reversal that reverses the particle flow through the gate.
LOL Cosmo, for today you're the coolest person in my book! =D
That said... why the interest in dead gods in particular?umm. Planescape?
Oh yeah. That particular chapter in Guide to the Astral was awesome. Blame Monte Cook all the way on this, because ten years on, it's still made of awesome.
Oh yeah. That particular chapter in Guide to the Astral was awesome. Blame Monte Cook all the way on this, because ten years on, it's still made of awesome.That said... why the interest in dead gods in particular?umm. Planescape?
Seconded.
Someone should make a magic cloak for planar travel and call it a Planes Cape.
including how exactly a god dies...
You called.
Someone should make a magic cloak for planar travel and call it a Planes Cape.
The setting should have had a mascot, that would have prevented it from going under. I think we might still save it if we invent a mascot now. Animals are always popular.
So I say We get a Planescape Goat!
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Someone should make a magic cloak for planar travel and call it a Planes Cape.The setting should have had a mascot, that would have prevented it from going under. I think we might still save it if we invent a mascot now. Animals are always popular.
So I say We get a Planescape Goat!
What you do with Planescape Goats is your own business...I think (not that anyone cares) is that Gods should be Beyond anything you can imagine.
In the Necronomicon they talk about Constelations being the Watchtowers created for the 'Elder Gods' to watch against That which dwells in the Chaos of total Void. Watchtowers created by another to whom the Elder Gods are inferior.
Down and dirty the Universe is debris of change in Possibility. Only life can create change in possibility, and only from outside the Universe.
That is you want from Gods in this Game, even when they die.
That said... why the interest in dead gods in particular?I myself I am much more interested in 2 things about a dead god... how he did lived and afected the world... Aroden's influence is still felt to this day...
but more importantly how his religion worked, his/her relationship with men/demihuman/monsters...
This is pretty much what I want too. I really don't care about the crunch or mechanics of the whole thing. I just think that it's a really cool topic and that Golarion will be an even deeper world, once something like this is written.
Also, for the record, I would totally buy a "Dead Gods and Magic" book. Just saying. :-)
This all ends with a Zombified God wandering the countryside...I just know it.
Hrm ... so, how exactly does one kill some thing that has had a "true death" administered to it, only to rise as a devourer of flesh and/or brains (or worse)?
Sounds like a real challenge. "Ok, I nat 20'd Aroden's zombie carcass, confirmed with a nat 20 and I'm using my Holy Avenger of Beneficent Doom!"
"That's purty. Aroden's milky white eyes are the last thing you see as he tears your face off, cracks your skull open like a coconut and snacks on your grey matter. Hand me your character sheet. Everyone, Bif the Paladin here is now a zombie of some sort too. Seems his Holy Avenger of Beneficent Doom was not the sure-fire method to dispatch Zombie Aroden."
But some of their gods dry up and blow away?
Is this some sort of weird deity menopause?
The Cook book was _Dead Gods_, but I don't think it counts because it was an adventure.
It would be interesting to learn about their clerics who, regardless of their disparate faiths, could have banded together because of their similar situations. Perhaps they could even, in some way, draw some power from the memories of their gods.
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true true
sorry Watcher, you are right.
about Aroden's DEath and the Starstone, they are more plot tools than somethign really accesible to players, that is how I see it
about the starstone test... you are not the one asking for it... its me
about persuming too much, you are right, i am sorry, i was not only answering to you, but also to Sebastian and a few others... i just found your post at the end... to reveal Aroden's death would be as if they told you the assassin in the 1st 20 miutes of a mystery movie... you lose the mystery that partially give the story focs... with this i refer to Golarion and the age itself...
for the rest: they have already revealed how at least how 2 gods dies... massive damage from magical sources or fell weapons... Arazni's death at least asn't a nice or good one... Curculain at leasthad some time for peace but yes he was attacke d by monsters and taken one of his portfolios, I suppose partially that killed him