I'd like to remind folks that bonuses due to race are not always racial and not all bonuses due to size are size bonuses.
For example, a halfling's +2 dex is an untyped bonus. Its just part of being a halfling. It's not even really a bonus: it's an actual change to the score. An average halfling doesn't have a dex of 10 with a +2 racial bonus: it has a 12 dex.
On the other hand, a halfling's +1 bonus to saving throws is a racial bonus: it's labelled as such.
Similarly, the bonuses a monster gains if it advances into another size category are untyped. The only things that grant size bonuses are effects like enlarge/reduce person and polymorph spells, which are almost always (but not always always) used to get much bigger or smaller.
I'd like to remind folks that bonuses due to race are not always racial and not all bonuses due to size are size bonuses.
I check my 3.5 PHB ,what Ross said is correct. Halfling's +2 dex is an untype bonus instead of racial or size bonus, same with other races.
Overall, I like the new druid, which seems more balance and fun.
Just to confirm, is my reading here going along with the general consensus on how it seems to work?
For explaining this to players confused about "Size Bonus" and same-size Polymorphing, I think I might suggest thinking of it/calling it a "Polymorph Bonus" instead, and restrict the term "Size Modifier" to the Attack/ AC/ Encumbrance modifiers tied to actual Size Category.
Since Stat Bonuses and Attack/AC/Encumbrance Modifiers don't interact "directly" (i.e. they're not a bonus to the same thing, so stacking/not stacking isn't relevant), it might be less confusing to not use the same Bonus category to refer to them...?
I think however you can explain it will work Quandary - as long as you're not stacking size bonuses with shapechanging bonuses (from people casting giant size or something).
I'd like to remind folks that bonuses due to race are not always racial and not all bonuses due to size are size bonuses.
For example, a halfling's +2 dex is an untyped bonus. Its just part of being a halfling. It's not even really a bonus: it's an actual change to the score. An average halfling doesn't have a dex of 10 with a +2 racial bonus: it has a 12 dex.
On the other hand, a halfling's +1 bonus to saving throws is a racial bonus: it's labelled as such.
Similarly, the bonuses a monster gains if it advances into another size category are untyped. The only things that grant size bonuses are effects like enlarge/reduce person and polymorph spells, which are almost always (but not always always) used to get much bigger or smaller.
If this was directed at me, I know that. I just think I'm going to have a house rule that gives size bonuses to characters for being the size they are, and changes when they change size. For simplicity, that will mean the halfling's currently untyped racial modifier to DEX and STR will become size modifiers, which is a deviation from RAW.
Good to see Lini! I feel much better about letting these into my game, now. The 3x druids always were too much of a powerhouse in the wrong hands. :)
I'm kinda netural on the subject, mainly because I'm not sure how this will effect the game. The new shape change rules seem well alsmost like the Shifter race made into a class, or maybe I'm just reading it wrong. In either case my fear is that the new system maybe be a little too odd for the average player and people will shy away from the Druid. Mind you its my least played class so part of my worry is I just don't understand how the shape change is going to really work at the table.
Has anyone played tested the previewed character in a fight? I'd like to hear your views/concerns.
TTFN DRE
It works closer to the shapeshift out of the PHB2 really
Are HP & skill rank correct?HP:8d8+3(con mod.)+1
Skill:acrobat+8(2rank+1dex+5item),fly+10(6rank+1dex+3), Handle Animal +10(4rank+3cha+3), Knowledge (nature) +8(6rank-1int+3), Perception +15(8rank+4wis+3), Survival +13(6rank+4wis+3);total32rank(8*(4-1Int+1))
Gnomes seem to lose their keen sense,hatred(and obsessive?)
I forgot nature sense.
Correctly,
HP:8d8+3con+1favored class
skill:
acrobat+8(2rank+1dex+5item)
fly+10(6rank+1dex+3)
Handle Animal +10(4rank+3cha+3)
Knowledge (nature) +8(4rank-1int+2nature sense+3)
Perception +15(6rank+4wis+2keen sense+3)
Survival +13(4rank+4wis+2nature sense+3)
total 26rank(8*(4-1Int)) +?2?
Nature sense may change into adding bonus on not only Knowledge(nature) and Survival but also Handle Animal, or, gnome's obsessive may change into adding +2bonus on any skill of their choice.
Thanks, Jason!
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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The skills are correct, you are missing the +2 bonus on Fly skill checks due to Lini being Small.
Did I just let that slip. Oops. It's late.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Is that a size bonus to the fly skill so that it's replaced when she wild shapes into a different sized critter?
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Is that a size bonus to the fly skill so that it's replaced when she wild shapes into a different sized critter?The skills are correct, you are missing the +2 bonus on Fly skill checks due to Lini being Small.
Did I just let that slip. Oops. It's late.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Yes. A druid shaped into a diminutive bat becomes an excellent flyer, for instance...
PS: we need stats for a pterodactyl! (i.e. large flying animal) :)
I just realized that the Druids summoning powers just got a huge boost.
Now that Protection from Evil only blocks contact by Evil summoned creatures, there is no longer a simple counter that neutralizes a druid's summoned creatures. [Before all the protection from (alignment) spells block physical contact by Neutral summoned creatures.]
Seeing as the summoning powers are one of the most powerful aspects of the class, I think it just got got a nice increase in power, and will probably get more once we see how the new versions of monsters work...
Jason, here is a druid question and a cleric question rolled into one.
Druids still have the option of taking a cleric domain in place of animal companion, that is nice. But do they get the domian spells as in 3.x?
The boring thing about 3.x domains are the bonus spells come at level 1,3,5,7, etc. Same level as you now get feats. That means that level 2, 4, 6, 8, etc will be quite boring. Especially if you are a cleric. Will the new domains work as 3.5 or different? I hope they get the bonus spells at even levels or some bonus stuff at some even levels.
I don't expect you to give us details, but can you say anything?
I just realized that the Druids summoning powers just got a huge boost.
Now that Protection from Evil only blocks contact by Evil summoned creatures, there is no longer a simple counter that neutralizes a druid's summoned creatures. [Before all the protection from (alignment) spells block physical contact by Neutral summoned creatures.]
Seeing as the summoning powers are one of the most powerful aspects of the class, I think it just got got a nice increase in power, and will probably get more once we see how the new versions of monsters work...
Summoning isn't one of the more powerful magics in the game. They are decent at certain levels but the CR of the summoned creatures is based on the spell level and doesn't scale well with caster level. In particular SNA is a bit weak because DR is so common at higher levels.
Giving summoning a bit of a boost isn't a bad thin IMO.
Summoning isn't one of the more powerful magics in the game.
Summon Monster I can summon 1d4+1 solars. You just need a real life weapon as Focus for the spell.
I've stayed out of this thus far because I've never actually used wild shape for combat in play -- I use it for disguise, mobility, scouting, etc. One thing I don't like is that size bonuses are now all over the place: if I go from Medium to Large, I might get a +2 bonus (Enlarge person), or a +8 bonus (monster advancement), or a bonus that scales with wild shape spell level. This might be better "balanced," but it is a definite pain in the neck to keep track of, and it offends my sense of orderliness in the rules -- I like things to work consistently, rather than randomly.
Other than that, I think the new druid is more or less right where a druid should be.
@Kirth: I don't think it will be complicated "to track" at all - You just have to look beyond the name and understand that the "Size Bonus" Stat Bonuses have NOTHING to do with actual Size Category.
It really seems like a hold over from 3.5's Size Modifier, for which the only effect giving a Size Bonus to STATS was Enlarge/Reduce X, and PRPG seems to have retained that name rather than instituting a "Polymorph Bonus". But since NOTHING else besides Polymorph Effects seem to give Size Bonuses to STATS, this portion of Size Bonus is de facto completely separate from the (attack/AC) bonuses linked to Size CATEGORY. Since both "Size Bonus" aspects CAN'T possibly interact (they don't modify the same things), there doesn't seem to be any reason why they need to use the same Bonus Type - except the anachronism of 3.5 Enlarge/Reduce using Size Bonus.
...If you used a different name (like Polymorph Bonus), would that make it seem simpler to you? Because I think in it's APPLICATION, it's very simple, just like Enhancement or Holy, but unifying Polymorph effects.
I just realized that the Druids summoning powers just got a huge boost.
Now that Protection from Evil only blocks contact by Evil summoned creatures, there is no longer a simple counter that neutralizes a druid's summoned creatures. [Before all the protection from (alignment) spells block physical contact by Neutral summoned creatures.]
Seeing as the summoning powers are one of the most powerful aspects of the class, I think it just got got a nice increase in power, and will probably get more once we see how the new versions of monsters work...
Summoning isn't one of the more powerful magics in the game. They are decent at certain levels but the CR of the summoned creatures is based on the spell level and doesn't scale well with caster level. In particular SNA is a bit weak because DR is so common at higher levels.
Giving summoning a bit of a boost isn't a bad thin IMO.
A 9 level druid can summon a Large Elemental. I would say that's powerful.
High level game are always a problem. SNA can take care of all the small critters in a big fight or flank etc.
I'm happy for the [size] bonus. I'm playing a dwarf druid right now, and that's one of the saddest things I've had with wildshaping (that and the T-Rex not getting as awesome a bite as the actual monster, since it gets benefits from Improved Natural Attack that I wouldn't get). I'll certainly love having that to play with.
My druid did prioritize strength somewhat (I've got a 16), and that's been a big help, so I'm glad that I'm a decent melee combatant (though the barbarian with Overhand chop is much better, which is only right). I think this all works pretty well, honestly. Glad to see it's not that different from the Beta (though I do rather like the Shapeshift variant from PHBII as well).