What are the ramifications of casting a spell that has no components. E.G. a silent casting of Dimension Door.
Under normal circumstances, the caster (wizard) is doing something that obviously indicates he is casting a spell, and thus you get the attempt to counter or dispel the spell he is casting. Furthermore, you get your AoO if you're in melee.
What other indications are there that a mage is casting a spell, and if none, do others still get an AoO on the spell, or the opportunity to counter or dispel?
Thanks,
Taka
That he disappears and reappears somewhere else is usually a good indication...
Beyond that the use of metamagic feats like silent and still spell simply add 2 to the DC of the spell craft check to recognize the spell.
That being said if the wizard in question is successfully hiding then casts a silent, still spell when no one knows he is there he should get away with it since he's not making any sound or taking any movement. However if the spell has a visual (i.e. fireball with it's pea sized ball of flame that explodes) then a spot check to notice where the spell is coming from is not out of the question.
Well, in a grapple you need to make checks to grab material components, and I don't think you can cast spells with somatic components at all.
As far as I know, the reason opponents get attacks is because you are focusing on casting the spell, not defending yourself, not because they know what you are doing. I would think that even if there is no V,S,M, there may be other things that give casting away, such as glowing auras, crackling energy, or any of the other effects.
As for things like opponents readying to do something if you start casting, that might be a little more dependent on their intelligence or knowledge of magic, but I don't really know of any specific rules on the subject.
By the rules as written a spell with no components still requires concentration and subjects the caster to the normal Attack of Opportunity rules.
Another question is, if you've readied an action to try and attack someone who's casting (perhaps you're ranged or they're casting defensively) then will your readied action trigger?
This is always a source of some conversation, so my plan when it next came up would be to write a moderately hard math problem on an index card, hand it over to the main antagonist, and ask him to solve it in his head. Then I'd point out to the rest of the table the furrowed brow, the slightly glazed eyes, and say "That's what 'concentration' looks like"
Spells always provoke attacks of opportunity unless some other effect is in play that says otherwise (like when you use the Quicken Spell feat).
Neither Silent Spell nor Still Spell say they prevent attacks of opportunity, so they still provoke.
If a dumb old kobold, or a dumber old rat, can take an AoO on a wizard standing there casting a spell with no visible or audible components, then there must still be something going on.
Basically, it's the concentration. That is required, and it didn't go away.
When concentrating, the caster drops his guard, provoking AoOs from everyone within reach.
And if that dumb old rat can still see it and take that AoO, then a clever enemy spellcaster trying to use counterspell can surely see it and react to it.
Someone posted that Silent and Still impose penalties to the Spellcraft check to identify a spell, but I don't know where that rule can be found. Seems reasonable though.
On the other hand, if all the caster is doing is squinting his eyes and furrowing his brow and maybe biting his lip in concentration, so it is reasonable to see that he is casting some spell, I don't know how anyone could possibly know what spell he is casting until it goes off.
Somewhere, lost in time, I am sure the rule said that a Silent spell means the caster whispers the component (as opposed to the - required - act of "speaking in a firm voice") and a Stilled spell required some minor finger wiggling as a small representation of the grander gestures normally required. At least then, enemy casters had something to look for.
Now they don't.
I would say that anyone who wanted to spend a precious feat on these almost useless feats, and then wants to prepare their spells 1 or 2 slots higher where they could have put a much mover valuable spell, well, they deserve to get something for it, so why not let them be impossible to identify during the casting?
Thanks, all. Typically, I think the people who take these feat(s) are the universalist wizards who make use of the free 1 level feats per day.
I may rethink my choice in feats and simply make do with extend, instead.
Thanks, all. Typically, I think the people who take these feat(s) are the universalist wizards who make use of the free 1 level feats per day.
I may rethink my choice in feats and simply make do with extend, instead.
Good luck with it either way.
Me, I don't bother with any metamagic feats.
A quick run of the numbers quickly shows that it's almost always better to prepare a 3rd level spell in a 3rd level slot than it is to prepare a 1st or 2nd level spell enhanced with any metamagic.
Wait!
Before I get pooh-poohed for saying that, I really do know that there are endless circumstantial situations where my blanket statement is wrong.
But in general, I believe that blanket statement to be true far far more often than it is wrong.
For my limited feat selection, I am much more satisfied with feats I can always use than I am with circumstantial feats that I will rarely use.
So I never take any metamagic feats.
Unless I have a long talk with a receptive DM who wants to revamp the metamagic system into something that makes it much more general-purpose and worthwhile.
My personal houserule for metamagic feats when I DM makes them quite useful again, but not overwhelmingly so.
Thanks, all. Typically, I think the people who take these feat(s) are the universalist wizards who make use of the free 1 level feats per day.
I may rethink my choice in feats and simply make do with extend, instead.
Good luck with it either way.
Me, I don't bother with any metamagic feats.
A quick run of the numbers quickly shows that it's almost always better to prepare a 3rd level spell in a 3rd level slot than it is to prepare a 1st or 2nd level spell enhanced with any metamagic.
Wait!
Before I get pooh-poohed for saying that, I really do know that there are endless circumstantial situations where my blanket statement is wrong.
But in general, I believe that blanket statement to be true far far more often than it is wrong.
For my limited feat selection, I am much more satisfied with feats I can always use than I am with circumstantial feats that I will rarely use.
So I never take any metamagic feats.
Unless I have a long talk with a receptive DM who wants to revamp the metamagic system into something that makes it much more general-purpose and worthwhile.
My personal houserule for metamagic feats when I DM makes them quite useful again, but not overwhelmingly so.
Unfortunately true. Nobody in any of my campaigns take metmagic feats, because they universally are less useful than regular spells. I'll also point out I use the spell point system, which gives them the flexibility to have prepared the same spell both ways and use it either way, and still nobody ever takes them.
I'm seriously considering using the alternate form from the UE once we switch to pahtfinder, which says you take the feat, you can use it (once or three, can't remember) so many times per day. Then they might be useful.
Thanks, all. Typically, I think the people who take these feat(s) are the universalist wizards who make use of the free 1 level feats per day.
I may rethink my choice in feats and simply make do with extend, instead.
Good luck with it either way.
Me, I don't bother with any metamagic feats.
A quick run of the numbers quickly shows that it's almost always better to prepare a 3rd level spell in a 3rd level slot than it is to prepare a 1st or 2nd level spell enhanced with any metamagic.
...
My personal houserule for metamagic feats when I DM makes them quite useful again, but not overwhelmingly so.
Unfortunately true. Nobody in any of my campaigns take metmagic feats, because they universally are less useful than regular spells. I'll also point out I use the spell point system, which gives them the flexibility to have prepared the same spell both ways and use it either way, and still nobody ever takes them.
I'm seriously considering using the alternate form from the UE once we switch to pahtfinder, which says you take the feat, you can use it (once or three, can't remember) so many times per day. Then they might be useful.
Really, not even something like Sculpt Spell (admittedly 3.5)? That one seems flexible enough to serve a wide range of purposes, given that you may choose the AoE when you cast rather than when you memorize.
Unfortunately true. Nobody in any of my campaigns take metmagic feats, because they universally are less useful than regular spells. I'll also point out I use the spell point system, which gives them the flexibility to have prepared the same spell both ways and use it either way, and still nobody ever takes them.
I'm seriously considering using the alternate form from the UE once we switch to pahtfinder, which says you take the feat, you can use it (once or three, can't remember) so many times per day. Then they might be useful.
I personally think that Metamagic Feats are more useful to Spontaneous casters like Sorcerers and Bards - they have only to choose 'on the fly' to convert their spells with their metamagic feat, and this is good (only downside, they have to cast a spell as a full-round action, but if they are in the back of the party, being able to move only 5 feet for that round is not a big deal...).
The most useful Metamagic feat for a Spontaneous caster (agan, IMHO) is Heighten spell. When a Sorcerer (for example) has finished his 3rd-level spell slots and has to cast another Fireball (using a higher spell slot), why not casting it as an EFFECTIVE higher level spell (for DCs and immunities) ?
Of course, YMMV.
I have used metamagic feats on a regular basis with a wizard and got good mileage out of them. However I stuck to the following:
Extend, Still, Silent, Quicken, Sculpt, and occasionally widen.
Occasionally I'll grab an energy substitution but it depends on the campaign.
I personally think that Metamagic Feats are more useful to Spontaneous casters like Sorcerers and Bards - they have only to choose 'on the fly' to convert their spells with their metamagic feat, and this is good (only downside, they have to cast a spell as a full-round action, but if they are in the back of the party, being able to move only 5 feet for that round is not a big deal...).
The most useful Metamagic feat for a Spontaneous caster (agan, IMHO) is Heighten spell. When a Sorcerer (for example) has finished his 3rd-level spell slots and has to cast another Fireball (using a higher spell slot), why not casting it as an EFFECTIVE higher level spell (for DCs and immunities) ?
Of course, YMMV.
You're right.
Deciding on the fly is better than having to prepare in advance - that's true whether he uses metamagic or not, and even more true if he does.
Me, I'd like to find a way to make them equally useful to all classes.
Besides, don't forget that yon sorcerer had to give up other feats, feats he might be able to use all the time, in order to get these metamagic feats that he uses situationally and infrequently.
Even for a sorcerer it's a tough call.
I have used metamagic feats on a regular basis with a wizard and got good mileage out of them. However I stuck to the following:
Extend, Still, Silent, Quicken, Sculpt, and occasionally widen.
Occasionally I'll grab an energy substitution but it depends on the campaign.
I would have to know, for a fact, that preparing my still/silent Fireball would be more valuable to me than preparing a Cone of Cold.
And it would have to be so valuable to me that I would gladly give up two feats for the privilege of doing this.
And I would need to know this weeks in advance, in time to decide how I will spend two feats before I need to prepare this 5th level slot.
Otherwise, I'll go for Spell Penetration and Spell Focus and just prepare that Cone of Cold - it will be harder to save against, likely do more damage, and will overcome spell resistence better.
Likewise for almost any metamagic combo.
Like I said, there are situational exceptions.
For example, having one still/silent teleport prepared in a level 7 slot can get you out of just about any ropes, any gag, any jail cell, or almost any other form of captivity. It's like a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card.
Except, by the time you're preparing 7th level spells, if the DM is going to capture you, it won't be an orc with a simple rope that does the capturing...
Another useful metamagic feat is empower, if your using direct damage spells in your top level spots. When your several levels from hitting the damage cap but at or close to the damage cap on a spell two levels lower (e.g., a 10th level wizard caster Empowered Fireball or Cone of Cold), you get an extra 50% damage before saves. Even considering the increased likelyhood of a successful save against an empowered spell (the DC is two lower), you still do more damage.
Even if the target has evasion, the empowered spell still averages more damage unless the target can make his save on a 6 or less.
Another useful metamagic feat is empower, if your using direct damage spells in your top level spots. When your several levels from hitting the damage cap but at or close to the damage cap on a spell two levels lower (e.g., a 10th level wizard caster Empowered Fireball or Cone of Cold), you get an extra 50% damage before saves. Even considering the increased likelyhood of a successful save against an empowered spell (the DC is two lower), you still do more damage.
Even if the target has evasion, the empowered spell still averages more damage unless the target can make his save on a 6 or less.
Yes. All true.
Unfortunately, many 5th level damage spells already can do more damage than a capped fireball. So much of the time, you may as well just prepare those spells rather than an Empowered Fireball.
Sometimes, the Empowered Fireball does more, sometimes less (depending on the caster level and the other spell we're talking about). For example, a 15th level caster can do as much damage with a cone of cold as he can with an empowered fireball, probably hit more targets, have less chance of hitting his friends, and the save DC is 2 points higher. No contest.
Yet that same mage is looking at his sheet and saying "why did I ever take that Empower Spell feat? I never use it anymore..."
Evokers already suck. I personally think Empower and Maximize got shafted. They should be +1 and +2 respectively. That would make them useful. Unfortunately, it would also probably overpower them, so maybe they go down to +33% more damage and +66% more damage. Or something like that. I'm talking out of my hat here.
Maybe thier level adjustment shouldn't change at all, but I've never been willing to take them on any caster of any class when there are better feats to take, and almost anything else is better.
I have my own rules for metamagic that makes it all interesting and playable, so I'm fine.
I just think the whole idea was a brilliant idea with horrible execution.
Kinda like Pearl Harbor - brilliant idea (mean, rude, maybe even evil, but brilliant), worst execution of any battle in all of World War II.
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Well...
With dispel magic, a silent/still dispel has merit sitting there in that 5th level slot. Polymorph/Hold Person/Silence/other save or suck effect.
And yes, it still draws an AoO, but it doesn't have to.
- Casting detect thoughts in a bar.
- Caster made an awesome hide check and wants to summon on the sly.
- Caster is wearing anotehr shape (hummingbird shaped Druid?) and wants to not draw attention to himself.
Those are off the top of my head. If you want to allow casters to throw still/silent/eschewed spells w/o drawing AoO, may I play a psion in your game? ;-)