My local group will be starting a new beta Pathfinder group soon in a custom setting. I argued vehemently against that, wanting to play in Golarion, but to no avail. I have the 3.5 Oriental Adventures book and I know Pathfinder is supposed to be pretty comparable to 3.5. I would LOVE to be able to play in the game as a Samurai with maybe even some levels as a Ninja (subterfuge/espionage guy). How compatible would this be with Pathfinder beta and would the Samurai be at a disadvantage/behind the power curve in regard to other melee classes like Paladin, Fighter, etc?
My local group will be starting a new beta Pathfinder group soon in a custom setting. I argued vehemently against that, wanting to play in Golarion, but to no avail. I have the 3.5 Oriental Adventures book and I know Pathfinder is supposed to be pretty comparable to 3.5. I would LOVE to be able to play in the game as a Samurai with maybe even some levels as a Ninja (subterfuge/espionage guy). How compatible would this be with Pathfinder beta and would the Samurai be at a disadvantage/behind the power curve in regard to other melee classes like Paladin, Fighter, etc?
First, I have to say this:
Any samurai, any samurai at all, who even contemplated the idea of taking even a little bit of ninja training, would almost immediately kneel down and commit seppuku.
If you must, then consider playing a ninja who disguises himself as a samurai and, along the way, picks up real samurai training in the form of class levels - even if he ends up with more samurai levels than ninja.
Far, far, far more palatable to the code of Bushido.
That had to be said.
Now I bite you, twice, for saying what you said. Big tarrasque bites.
Now for your answer: Samurai in 3.5 was always a little weak compared to 3.5 core. So was ninja.
Consequently, since Pathfinder upgraded pretty much all the classes except druid (going from beta and the few previews we've seen here) I'd say the Samurai and Ninja will both be a little farther behind the Pathfinder "power curve".
I would consider giving them both the Pathfinder treatment.
Consolidate the skill lists. Consider tweaking the HD up a notch (specifically the ninja). Add a couple useful class abilities commensurate with fighter weapon training or rogue talents or monk Ki, or whatever you want, just to bring them on-par with the upgraded Pathfinder classes.
As to specifics, I leave that up to you - after you bandage those nasty bites.
Actually the vast majority of historical Ninja were in fact Samurai. Their Daimyos simply employed them secretly on the battlefield outside the normal lines of Bushido.
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If I were inclined to play a Samurai in Pathfinder, I would use the core Fighter and flavor it, as well.
I'd tweak the skills some: Knowledge Dungeoneering and Engineering I would probably go with History and Nobility...maybe swap out Climb or Handle Animal for Diplomacy, depending on if I wanted to be primarily mounted, although most Samurai were very proficient in the saddle. I would use Craft for one of the Noble pursuits of art and beauty.
Skills are the only downside to using the Fighter, as Samurai were Nobles and had quite a few skills.
Oh and the option for Weapon Finesse: Katana (Bastard Sword).
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How compatible would this be with Pathfinder beta and would the Samurai be at a disadvantage/behind the power curve in regard to other melee classes like Paladin, Fighter, etc?
The 3.X Oriental Adventures Samurai, IIRC, is way better than the craptacular Complete Warrior version. I'd definitely go with that one, and consider only modestly tweaking it, if at all, to start.
If certain Samurai abilities closely match certain new Fighter abilities, it might make sense to update those. A Samurai might get the equivalent of armor or weapon familiarity in their particular signature gear, for instance.
On thing that has increasingly been the case in the update from 3.0 to 3.5 is the increase in options. The Monk and Ranger, for instance, are somewhat more flexible, so a similarly flexible Samurai might be able to swap out the katana / wakizashi bonuses to be a naginata or no-dachi or yumi focused build (and indeed, Bushido was portrayed as being more the way of horse and bow, than the way of katana-fu!).
First, I have to say this:Any samurai, any samurai at all, who even contemplated the idea of taking even a little bit of ninja training, would almost immediately kneel down and commit seppuku.
No, he wouldn't. At least not in real life, maybe in the super exaggerated world of Rokugan where the honor and stuff is so serious they don't use leather to make saddles. Until the Tokugawa was solidified and safe, nobody really cared about bushido. In fact it was so out of caring that one Japanese writer of the late Tokugawa/Early Meiji era thought that he had invented the word to inspire people in loyalty to the emperor. Most shinobi were just the more specialized samurai of the Koga or Iga provinces.
Actually the vast majority of historical Ninja were in fact Samurai. Their Daimyos simply employed them secretly on the battlefield outside the normal lines of Bushido.
Source please? My Osprey book (Turnbull, Stephen. Ninja AD 1460-1650. Osprey Publishing, 2003) contradicts that statement utterly.
Source please? My Osprey book (Turnbull, Stephen. Ninja AD 1460-1650. Osprey Publishing, 2003) contradicts that statement utterly.
I like Stephen Turnbull and his works on Samurai and Ninja, however I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axles about some of the details.
http://www.shinobiwinds.com/
A fairly interesting piece of work, with some fairly solid foundations.
Gives a great amount of insight about the relations with samurai clans and their ninja families.
The story of Daisuke Nishina will interest you.
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I am playing a Monk in the Second Darkness AP. And I can say that playing a monk will get you very close to ninja except for the sudden strike and ki powers that focus on blinking and invis.
The jump abilitiy, and free monk feats that can be focused on ninja type moves, gets very close to straight ninja at 4th level.
And, it definately sits better in the minds of those of us that hold samarai and ninja's as two total opposites. For those that love history, that statement is a truth that can not be refuted.
So, monk/samarai might work better.
Until coming Pathfinder Oriental is published, if PF core class substitutes for Shugenja (hermits who worship and train in secred mountains), Druids , taking nature-related domain, may be appropriate, I think.
In this case, they gain Profiency with Naginata instead of scimitar, and Mountain Stride.
And, it definately sits better in the minds of those of us that hold samarai and ninja's as two total opposites. For those that love history, that statement is a truth that can not be refuted.
You can hold that in your mind as much as you want; in that case you aren't 'loving history', but instead loving idealised fiction.
In the short term you can spec a Ftr/Rogue as a classical Ninja, or alternately you can make a quasi-Hollywood version out of the Monk. For a different 'Tengu' bent, you might even consider rolling a stylised Druid in there as well.
I don't understand half the words on this thread.
If/when Paizo bring out an oriental adventures book I'm hoping for a really good, clear explanation of all this stuff.
Most of the words you may be lost with are Japanese in origin, and important to the core motivations and historical context of the Ninja.
Without a knowledge of the lore surrounding the Ninja, any 'Ninja' you might put in your campaign are not actually Ninja, but dudes doing Karate in black pyjamas.