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Needed: scenarios and bulleted lists of any/all CMB related actions in combat. Grapple, bullrush, overrun, et.al.
Background: Some of us still need help feeling confident adjudicating CMB accurately. This will help build GM confidence with rulings, and player confidence using this streamlined system in their Pathfinder RPG game.
Note: Pathfinder Beta rules only (unless Jason wants to give us a peek at CMD (Combat Maneuver Defense). Thanks.
Needed: scenarios and bulleted lists of any/all CMB related actions in combat. Grapple, bullrush, overrun, et.al.
Background: Some of us still need help feeling confident adjudicating CMB accurately. This will help build GM confidence with rulings, and player confidence using this streamlined system in their Pathfinder RPG game.
Note: Pathfinder Beta rules only (unless Jason wants to give us a peek at CMD (Combat Maneuver Defense). Thanks.
I'm not quite sure what you're looking for.
Bulleted list?
There's only 6 maneuvers, listed on page 150 of the Beta book, and described in detail on page 150-151.
Bull Rush
Disarm
Grapple
Overrun
Sunder
Trip
Scenarios?
Like what?
If an ogre tries to overrun a paladin? If a rogue tries to trip an orc?
If that's what you mean, the combinations run into the billions, I'm sure.
What's important is to understand that they all use the same basic mechanic.
You have a CMB. Your enemy has a CMB. The formula for calculating the CMB is right there on page 150:
CMB = BAB + STR Modifier + special size modifier.
This CMB doesn't change on its own. When you're BAB goes up, or when your STR modifier changes, or if you happen to change size (e.g. Enlarge Person) you simply adjust the score. Otherwise, it is the same CMB value day after day, week after week, and it is written on your character sheet (and in the monster entries, once Paizo puts out their Bestiary).
When you try any of these 6 maneuvers, you must roll a d20. You add your CMB value to the roll to get a total result. You compare this total result to the DC of the task. The DC is 15+CMB (take your enemy's CMB and add 15).
If your total roll equals or exceeds the DC value, your maneuver succeeds
If not, your maneuver fails.
As for what each maneuver can do, it's spelled out in detail on pages 150-151.
So here's one of the billions of scenarios:
You are a human fighter. Your BAB is 4, your STR is 18 (+4), and you have no size modifier, so your CMB is 8.
You are fighting an ogre. His BAB is 3 and his STR is 21 (+5), and his size modifier is +1 (found on page 150), so his CMB is 9.
You decide to trip him.
You read about Trip on page 151. First thing you see is that tripping is a melee attack. Then there is a size restriction, but the ogre is only one size larger than you, so you can attempt to trip him. Then you see it provokes an AoO. Let's assume for this senario that the ogre already took his AoO this round so you are safe.
So you roll. D20 + your CMB value of 8.
You roll a 14 + 8 = 22. Not bad.
You then look at the DC for the trip maneuver. 15 + the ogre's CMB of 9 = 24.
So you needed a 24 but only rolled a 22. You failed to trip the ogre.
The good news is that you did not fail by 10 or more. If you had rolled a 6 or less, the end result would be 14 or less, which would mean that you fall prone instead (maybe your trip attempt was so bad that you end up off balance and you trip over the ogre's foot and fall prone).
That's all there is to it.
Summary:
1. Figure out your CMB - every player in the group should have it on their sheet.
2. Figurer out the enemy's CMB (or find it if it's already been figured out and recorded in the AP or Bestiary for you).
3. Read the specific maneuver in the book to find out special rules, like AoO, etc.
4. Roll your d20+CMB to equal or exceed 15+defender's CMB.
And that's all there is to it.
Hope that helps.
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Thanks DM.
And that's 100% consistent with our play on Monday nights. We started a Pathfinder campaign May 5th, 2008. We worked through Alpha and Beta.
Yet, I find that my players are hesitant to use CMB. Yeah, I know, its been a year hasn't it? So, lately I've been doing what I can to up my use of CMB by their opponents, figuring it would catch on... still.... crickets.
So, I do thank anyone who can share one or twenty of their "billion" possible scenarios here. Because, I want to literally share them with my players as examples. My thought is to say, "I was online reading about the interesting ways players have used CMB in their games...for example, ...."
Now, I know CMB is plain as day. And, I fully comprehend the mechanics in the previous post.
Yet, I implore this community's help to understand what the sublime problem could be? I am a big fan of the mechanic, and I have even designed my own homebrew character sheets with CMD months ago, since I noticed certain feats will modify a defensive CMB score.
I cannot wait for the new Pathfinder game in August, but until then, I think I need CMB scenarios...
Maybe I am missing something.... please help.
You said you're having the opponents use them - But is it effective when they do?
If it's not, or Maneuvers simply fail too much, that probably wouldn't convice me as a player to try them. So I would make sure to only use them in situations where they provide a signifigant advantage to the enemy, or otherwise be better than a melee attack.
Probably one of the best Maneuver scenarios: Bullrushing someone off a roof/ bridge/ ship deck/ etc.
Or try giving one of the PC's the "Item of Uber Power" that either out-classes the enemy or brings the PCs up to par (what the item is is situational - it could be as simple as a Cloak of Flying), but then Disarm/ Sunder the item, instantly shattering the PC group's assumed superiority. Non-weapon items held in one hand have a bonus to being Disarmed, and many items (especially cloth or wooden ones) have very low HPs that can be Sundered easily. Or if the PCs are using a Magical Weapon that the opposition is very interested in obtaining, Disarm the item, and have another NPC grab it and teleport out... Leaving the players to track down the bad guys before they use the item for no good.
The Beta's base DC of 15 does make Maneuvers relatively hard to succeed at, which reduces their attractiveness. If you're interested, you might try searching the messageboards for "Maneuver AC". It may not be EXACTLY the implementation seen in the final product, but from the Valeros Preview, we do know that the "Base DC" has changed from 15 to being equal to Touch AC. Allowing common bonuses like Flanking to help with Maneuvers is intuitive and exploitable by players (and you) to help their Maneuvers succeed when they really want them to.
I wouldn't really expect Maneuvers to really get much better than "Situationally Effective" (unless you have a Wildshaping Druid PC into Kraken role-play), but if you look out for those situations and exploit them, you might convice your players to also start looking out for those situations (but you need to give them those situations!)
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You said you're having the opponents use them - But is it effective when they do?
If it's not, or Maneuvers simply fail too much, that probably wouldn't convice me as a player to try them. So I would make sure to only use them in situations where they provide a signifigant advantage to the enemy, or otherwise be better than a melee attack.Probably one of the best Maneuver scenarios: Bullrushing someone off a roof/ bridge/ ship deck/ etc.
Or try giving one of the PC's the "Item of Uber Power" that either out-classes the enemy or brings the PCs up to par (what the item is is situational - it could be as simple as a Cloak of Flying), but then Disarm/ Sunder the item, instantly shattering the PC group's assumed superiority. Non-weapon items held in one hand have a bonus to being Disarmed, and many items (especially cloth or wooden ones) have very low HPs that can be Sundered easily. Or if the PCs are using a Magical Weapon that the opposition is very interested in obtaining, Disarm the item, and have another NPC grab it and teleport out... Leaving the players to track down the bad guys before they use the item for no good.
The Beta's base DC of 15 does make Maneuvers relatively hard to succeed at, which reduces their attractiveness. If you're interested, you might try searching the messageboards for "Maneuver AC". It may not be EXACTLY the implementation seen in the final product, but from the Valeros Preview, we do know that the "Base DC" has changed from 15 to being equal to Touch AC. Allowing common bonuses like Flanking to help with Maneuvers is intuitive and exploitable by players (and you) to help their Maneuvers succeed when they really want them to.
I wouldn't really expect Maneuvers to really get much better than "Situationally Effective" (unless you have a Wildshaping Druid PC into Kraken role-play), but if you look out for those situations and exploit them, you might convice your players to also start looking out for those situations (but you need to give them those situations!)
Very good insight. I recall that in the first few sessions of this campaign, I was using CMB a lot. But goblins couldn't push PCs off rooftops etc. In fact, now that you mention the 15 mark - I think that's central to my issues. Althought I've been trying to use CMB in the games, it mostly does not work with the 15 factor.
Have you been using 12, or touch ac as the base? The downside of touch ac is that it is another calculation rather than a flat number. Couldn't I just use 11? What do you do in games?
I don't think it's any more calculations: You already need to calculate Touch AC, so using that already-written-down figure is no different than using 15. In any case, Touch AC clearly is the basis of the CMD (Defensive) seen in the Valeros preview of the Final rules.
If you want to try using Maneuver AC, which the final rules seem set to be very similar to, try this:
Maneuver Attack = (Normal Attack Roll & Modifiers + Maneuver Size Mod*) vs.
Maneuver AC = (Touch AC + BAB + STR + Maneuver Size Mod*)
* Medium Creatures (most PCs) have a zero Maneuver (and regular) Size Mod, so can ignore this.
That's it, and it otherwise works exactly the same as Melee combat.
Using Touch AC as the basis for CMD/Maneuver AC means a signifigant situational bonus besides Flanking is catching your opponent Flat-Footed & denying them their DEX bonus: If the NPCs get the drop on your PCs Initiative-wise, that first round is definitely an optimal time to try any Maneuvers, for this very reason. Things like balancing on a narrow ledge or slanted roof also negate the DEX bonus to AC.
One other thing that might make Maneuvers more enticing:
A signifigant problem is that if you don't have the appropriate Improved Maneuver Feat (which often have other Feat pre-req's), attempting a Maneuver means you provoke an AoO (which also raises the DC by the amount of damage done, quickly prohibitive).
You might consider allowing ANYBODY to try the Maneuver without provoking AoO's (attacking "Unarmed" still would provoke, and only specific Weapons are compatable with most Maneuvers - check the Weapon descriptions). Shields (not Bucklers) are common and good for Bullrushes... This has the side-effect of making those weapons that allow certain Maneuvers more noticeable - with the standard rules on provoking, most people fighting with those weapons probably aren't using the Maneuvers they're supposedly designed for. If your Weapon is Enchanted, that attack bonus also applies to any Maneuvers it's capable of.
(If this change makes it into the Final, I'd be VERY happy :-)
...I hope this is helpful!
Valeros' preview wasn't at all clear what bonuses applied to Maneuver attack rolls.
So until August, all I can say is: Look for more previews.
Actually, since a "CMB" number WAS included in Valeros' stat block, I might guess that they decided to "separately calculate" CMB & CMD instead of just slapping a Maneuver Size Mod on top of normal attack and Touch AC numbers... But as long as all attack mods and all dodge/deflection mods apply to CMB and CMD, the END RESULT will be exactly the same.
