Good catch.
My word isn't official, but this is how I see it.
A spell in a spellbook is like a recipe for cake. It tells you all the ingredients and a step by step process for mixing it all together to make the perfect cake.
A spell on a scroll is like a finished cake, frosted and ready to go, just waiting for the user to add the little candy sprinkles.
In other words, the spell in the book is just a formula, and the spell on a scroll is a finished product, waiting for a few chosen words to finish the spell.
No, that's not exactly supported by the RAW, but here's my reasoning:
1. Anyone, even a non-spellcaster, with ranks in Use Magical Device can activate a scroll, but they cannot cast spells from a spellbook.
2. Scrolls don't need the user to have the material components or foci to use them. They don't even require somatic gestures.
3. A beholder could cast a fireball from a scroll (if he had 5 levels in wizard, 6 in sorcerer, or enough ranks in Use Magical Device) even though he has no hands and has no bat guano or sulfur.
4. Nobody, not even an arch-mage, can cast even a simple cantrip from a spellbook. The spellbook must be studied and spells prepared in advance, so the formula as presented in a spellbook is evidently a smattering of formulae and instructions and symbols and sketches and whatever, all of which comes together with sufficient study and preparation - but in its raw state, it's basically a how-to manual to cast the spell.
Based on this, it is clear (to me) that the spell on a scroll is a finished product, or nearly so, with just the final bit of incantation missing - to be supplied when the scroll is used.
So with all that said, trying to learn a new spell from a spellbook is just a matter of studying the formula and making sense out of the step-by-step instructions. Trying to learn a new spell from a scroll is a much harder matter of figuring out the formula from the finished spell. Reverse engineering, if you will.
Which is harder: learning a new cake recipe from a recipe book or from a cake that is already baked and frosted?
Hence, back to the original question, my call would be 10+SL to learn from a spellbook and 15+SL to learn from a scroll.
No, that's not RAW, though I think if I dig back far enough into various editions of D&D I will find that definition of a scroll being a finished product somewhere in the RAW of some version. I've had this view of scrolls for decades, so it might even be 1st edition D&D that established this idea for me.
Either way, there are clear differences between spell formulae in a spellbook and spells on a scroll, so while my suggestions here are just interpretations of the RAW, I hope that these interpretations seem well-founded within the rules framework.
On a slightly related note, has anyone noticed this little bit:
If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully.
Think about that DC.
If a 4th level wizard tries to use a Fireball scroll, he must make a caster check of DC 6 (caster level of fireball is 5, + 1 from this rule).
His caster check is d20+4. So he will fail on a 1 and succeed on a 2 or higher.
If he tries to cast Wish from a scroll, he will need to roll an 18, and will succeed on 13 or higher.
Do these DCs seem a little too easy to anyone else?
Maybe that's a typo. Maybe it should read: "(DC = scroll’s caster level + 10)"
At least then the 4th level guy would have to roll an 11 or higher for Fireball, a 50% chance to cast a spell that's over his head. And he would have no chance at a Wish.
A 7th level wizard could cast Wish from a scroll, but he'd need to roll a 20.
|
If he tries to cast Wish from a scroll, he will need to roll an 18, and will succeed on 13 or higher.
Um, if the DC = 10 (spell level + 1) and his CL is 4, doesn't he need a 5+ on the die?
Maybe that's a typo. Maybe it should read: "(DC = scroll’s caster level + 10)" [...] At least then the 4th level guy would have to roll an 11 or higher for Fireball, a 50% chance to cast a spell that's over his head.
For fireball the DC = 3 + 10 = 13, so a 4th level caster needs a 9+ on the die.
And he would have no chance at a Wish.
No, the DC = 19, so he'd need a 15+ on the die. A 30% chance of success.
A 7th level wizard could cast Wish from a scroll, but he'd need to roll a 20.
Again, the DC = 19 so the 7th level caster needs a 12+, which is a 45% chance of success.
Do these DCs seem a little too easy to anyone else?
I've found just about every DC is too low by about 5 points in PF. The Diplomacy checks are way too easy -- I have 4th level PCs going around with a total of +15 on their Diplomacy checks!
I've taken to upping the DCs by 5 across the board (Appraise, Diplomacy, and Heal being the prime motivators) and some of them I add another 2-5 points if I deem it appropriate.
Do these DCs seem a little too easy to anyone else?I've found just about every DC is too low by about 5 points in PF. The Diplomacy checks are way too easy -- I have 4th level PCs going around with a total of +15 on their Diplomacy checks!
I've taken to upping the DCs by 5 across the board (Appraise, Diplomacy, and Heal being the prime motivators) and some of them I add another 2-5 points if I deem it appropriate.
Yes, I've felt much the same way.
By the way, the Pathfinder rule says "Caster Level" not "Spell Level", so the minimum caster level for Fireball is 5, which is why I used 5 instead of the spell level of 3, and the minimum caster level for wish is 17, which is what I used, rather than the spell level of 9.
Although, I did have a typo when I said, by RAW, a 4th level caster would succeed on a wish on a 13 or higher. I was thinking "over 13", and should have typed "14 or higher", but I jumbled the two together incorrectly.
|
|
Hi,
It is unfortunately too late to report typos in the playtesting forums, but on p.166 copying a spell from another book or a scroll requires a Spellcraft DC15 + spell'd level check whereas on p.72 the table says: Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll 10 + spell level. What is the correct DC ?
In 3.5, according to the d20srd.org, it was 15+spell level. This is the same in both the Spellcraft skill and the Magic chapter. I would go with that ruling for the time being.
|
|
On a slightly related note, has anyone noticed this little bit:
If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully.Think about that DC.
If a 4th level wizard tries to use a Fireball scroll, he must make a caster check of DC 6 (caster level of fireball is 5, + 1 from this rule).
His caster check is d20+4. So he will fail on a 1 and succeed on a 2 or higher.
If he tries to cast Wish from a scroll, he will need to roll an 18, and will succeed on 13 or higher.
Do these DCs seem a little too easy to anyone else?
Maybe that's a typo. Maybe it should read: "(DC = scroll’s caster level + 10)"
At least then the 4th level guy would have to roll an 11 or higher for Fireball, a 50% chance to cast a spell that's over his head. And he would have no chance at a Wish.
A 7th level wizard could cast Wish from a scroll, but he'd need to roll a 20.
Of course they're easy, it's a finished Scroll. A one-time use item. That scroll of Wish still costs a ton and a half to get, and if a 7th level Wizard somehow got his hand on one...well, something's weird. :)
The DC is low, but I'm not sure that it's unreasonably low. For a CL N caster reading a CL N+1 scroll, he's trying to do something that, one level from now, he won't even have to make a roll for.
Also, he's not trying to gain access to some new feature that is currently unavailable (like a 4th level druid trying to wildshape), he's trying to do something that he already knows how to do, but not good enough that it's automatic.
It provides a way for the party to get somewhat early (risky, expensive) access to higher level spells without hiring an NPC. It can also be an effective way for enemy NPC's to use their treasure. A 4th level sorcerer against a 4th level party is one combat; a 4th level sorcerer with a scroll of Fly against a 4th level party in a tall room is quite a different combat. And if the party has a scroll of Dispel Magic, ...
Personally, I don't think the DC should be any higher than 5 + CL and the current (1 + CL) isn't unreasonable.
|
|
By the way, the Pathfinder rule says "Caster Level" not "Spell Level", so the minimum caster level for Fireball is 5, which is why I used 5 instead of the spell level of 3, and the minimum caster level for wish is 17, which is what I used, rather than the spell level of 9.
Wow, I hadn't noticed that! Thank you very much!
We've been playing using the PF Beta since last September and I hadn't noticed it. I guess I'll lump that in with the beast shape changes I hadn't picked up on either, like movement rates being limited based on the spell level...
Thanks again.
I shall answer my own question with what I could read on p.359 : a scroll has the caster level of its creator, who can chose between the minimum level to cast the spell and his own level if higher. Is that right ?
I have a question regarding this caster level then: Fireball caster level is 5 for a Wizard, but 6 for a Sorcerer. How does it work then for a scroll ? Is that the caster level of the character that has made the scroll, or the caster level of the one that uses the scroll to cast the spell ? That means a scroll user could cast a spell of a higher level than his own level ?
Yes that's right, and he can choose any level in between.
So a 10th level wizard can write that scroll at 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, or 10th level.
I shall answer my own question with what I could read on p.359 : a scroll has the caster level of its creator, who can chose between the minimum level to cast the spell and his own level if higher. Is that right ?
I have a question regarding this caster level then: Fireball caster level is 5 for a Wizard, but 6 for a Sorcerer. How does it work then for a scroll ? Is that the caster level of the character that has made the scroll, or the caster level of the one that uses the scroll to cast the spell ? That means a scroll user could cast a spell of a higher level than his own level ?
On a related note, unless otherwise noted scroll are expected to be created by a wizard (or cleric if divine) at the lowest possible caster level.