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Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but it's with regards to the Arcane Archer prestige class. I missed the earlier play-test Arcane Archer-related discussion, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or thought of yet. I noticed a lot of people finding the requirement to cast 1st level arcane spells a bit ridiculous, because it generally means you have a fighter with one level of wizard/sorcerer. Also, there was some discussion about giving the Arcane Archer some kind of spell progression. Well, I'm going to be a player soon in a Legacy of Fire game using the PRPG beta rules, and I'm thinking of being a hardcore archer. So, naturally, I'm looking at the Arcane Archer prestige class. I got to thinking, instead of fulfilling the 1st level arcane spells requirement by taking a random (and possibly useless) level of wizard/sorcerer, why not take four levels of Rogue, pick up the minor and major magic Rogue talent, giving you the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells? Not to mention, this gives your archer the ability to sneak attack! Furthermore, start dumping lots of skills points into Use Magic Device, and carry around powerful scrolls to cast for the Imbue Arrow ability. On the downside, taking four levels in Rogue does slow your BAB progression by 1. Nevertheless, instead of multiclassing your fighter into a useless level of wizard, you've instead multiclassed into Rogue, which is a very useful class for an archer, and still qualifies for Arcane Archer. (Unless I'm mistaken...)
On a side note, is it possible to get the Quick Draw feat to quickly grab scrolls, so you can still move, cast the spell from the scroll to imbue arrow, and then fire?
Casting a spell from a scroll is a standard action, so you could not cast the spell and attack in the same round. Unless you had the scroll already out and ready to read, I would require a move action to find the scroll, and a standard action to cast it. Otherwise it doesn't make sense for a scroll to take the same amount of time to cast as a prepared spell.
A generous DM might allow Quick Draw to refer to readying the scroll for casting, and allow that as a free action. But it would still be a standard action to cast.
Well, I'm going to be a player soon in a Legacy of Fire game using the PRPG beta rules, and I'm thinking of being a hardcore archer. So, naturally, I'm looking at the Arcane Archer prestige class. I got to thinking, instead of fulfilling the 1st level arcane spells requirement by taking a random (and possibly useless) level of wizard/sorcerer, why not take four levels of Rogue, pick up the minor and major magic Rogue talent, giving you the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells?
Unfortunately, the rogue talent is a spell-like ability. The arcane archer requires casting 1st level arcane spells, not quite the same thing.
Another route to meeting the class requirements would be taking at least two levels of bard (possibly bard/fighter or bard/ranger to make it a bit easier; but a straight bard 8 or bard 4/rogue 4 can still qualify by focusing every feat on entrance requirements). You can cast spells in light armor, have access to cure light wounds and Bardic Music, and have plenty of skills (especially a bard/ranger or bard/rogue).
Another route to meeting the class requirements would be taking at least two levels of bard
Or one PF bard...
Could just go PF Bard to 8th level then go Arcane Archer. In 3.5 this was the prefered route for those building Arcane Archers in the campaigns I was involved in.
Doug
A generous DM might allow Quick Draw to refer to readying the scroll for casting, and allow that as a free action. But it would still be a standard action to cast.
I'm not sure about the language of the Imbue Arrow ability, but casting a spell is also a standard action - Imbue Arrow lets you do that with the shot too :) It is a little different though, I don't know. It is at least spell completion (as opposed to wand/spell trigger).
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I'm a bit confused as to why the spell-like ability that Rogues would gain from taking major/minor magic wouldn't work for the requirement. The Arcane Archer requirement states: "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells." The Rogue talent ability states: "A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the wizard/sorcerer spell list." I know the Rogue talent says it is a "spell-like ability," but does the Arcane Archer requirement somehow imply that the casting cannot be a spell-like ability?
I'm a bit confused as to why the spell-like ability that Rogues would gain from taking major/minor magic wouldn't work for the requirement. The Arcane Archer requirement states: "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells." The Rogue talent ability states: "A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the wizard/sorcerer spell list." I know the Rogue talent says it is a "spell-like ability," but does the Arcane Archer requirement somehow imply that the casting cannot be a spell-like ability?
As a DM I would be inclined to allow a Rogue with the Major Magic ability to qualify. The imbue arrow ability is fairly weak in my opinion so this would not be a major loss.
Doug
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Concerning whether a rogue's major magic fulfills Arcane Archer's requirement...
My opinion: Yes
Reason:
Exact wording for Arcane Archer's requirement is "ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells." (p.2 of prestige class)
Exact wording for a rogue's major magic is "A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the wizard/sorcerer spell list. This spell can be cast 2/day as a spell-like ability." (p.39 of pf beta)
Arcane Archer's requirement, it seems, does not specify HOW the spell is cast. You can cast it normally or cast it as a spell-like ability. Ultimately, what is important is that you can cast it.
Concerning whether you can cast from a scroll and fire in the same round...
Verdict: Yes
Exact wording from Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow is "it takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted." (p.2~3 of prestige class)
I think that's pretty self-explanatory.
As a side note, I would totally take quick draw as a feat for arcane archer. That way, when everyone get in the right position, I can fire in the same round.
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As a side note, I would totally take quick draw as a feat for arcane archer. That way, when everyone get in the right position, I can fire in the same round.
Actually, you can't quick draw a scroll, according to pf beta.
"You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action...Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be
drawn quickly using this feat." (pf beta p.92)
Basically, you would have to pre-draw your scroll in order to move and use Imbue Arrow in the same round.
If you allow someone with a 1st-level spell-like ability to enter the Arcane Archer PrC, then any creature with a spell-like ability could enter any PrC with that prerequisite. For example, the 3.5-edition balor would have no problem becoming an Archmage, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Hierophant, or any other PrC that requires spellcasting ability.
I also recall reading somewhere that spell-like abilities are not actually "cast"; thus, why they can't be used to activate scrolls, wands, etc. It's been a while, but I'll dig around and see if I can find where this is mentioned.
I completely agree with this reasoning - spell-like abilities are not "cast", they are used. The Rogue Major Magic ability is, frankly, poorly worded.
That said, I still might allow it for this particular class.
On the scrolls - I'm not convinced those are "cast" either, vs. used, but as I said they are at least spell-completion, which is darn close to cast.
I hope they leave it open for DM discretion frankly.
I still don't see how it would be possible to juggle bow, arrow, and scroll, while moving, and still get a shot off in the same round.
Here's how I see it, and correct me if I'm wrong:
Fishing scroll out of backpack/scrollcase and unrolling it to read: 1 move action.
Casting spell from scroll on arrow: 1 standard action.
Drawing bow can be done with the movement, if you have a BAB +1.
Moving - 1 move action.
Firing: 1 standard action.
By my count, that's 2 move actions and 2 standard actions. Even if the Imbue Arrow allows casting/firing as a standard action, I don't see how you can do all that in a single round without some sort of haste.
Also, while we are on the subject, what is the logic behind casting from a scroll being the same casting time as casting a prepared spell? Wouldn't it take more time to read a spell aloud than just triggering the energies of a prepared spell? Isn't that why you prepare spells in the first place, so you don't have to dig through your spell book to look up sleep every time you need to use it?
Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
I, too, would require actual spellcasting, not just spell-like abilities.
Yeah several places note that spell-like abilities are not the same as the ability to cast spells. Reasons I think this should be obvious would include the name, "Spell-like" not "Spell abilities", the fact you can't change them out for other spells, and the fact that you 'use' spell-like abilites, and you 'cast' spells.
Oh, oh Prestidigitation! Always take Prestidigitation! Wonderful spell useful for all sorts of stuff...collecting arrowheads, coins, making that gruel taste good, warming up your bedroll, cleaning your hair, turning coins into rings, arcing lightning between your hands (looks intimidating), cooling down your ale, putting a smug of dirt on the queen's robes, flatulence sounds...
the list goes on and on and on!
...spell-like abilities are not "cast", they are used...That said, I still might allow it for this particular class.
...On the scrolls - I'm not convinced those are "cast" either, vs. used...
SCROLLS and SPELL-LIKE abilities both provoke ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY as if you were casting a spell, that alone IMO makes them qualify as CASTING A SPELL.
A WAND does not provoke, as the wand is doing the work, you're just activating it.
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ALSO... A Dark Elf might qualify for the obligatory caster level simply for being a Dark Elf, but he doesn't qualify for the +6 BAB. I don't see this as a problem since anything and everything with "spell-like abilities" as a race is 'Level Adjustment +1 or better' meaning they already have their obligatory level through racial leveling.
Take the draconic bloodline, and you have 2 1D6 claw attacks. Sure, that may not sound like much, but if you get snuck up on or otherwise engaged in melee, it may be a lifesaver compared to taking a move action and attack of opportunity to draw a melee weapon.
Or you could just wear spiked gauntlets...
Or while you're taking obligatory levels of classes, dip for a level of Monk so you'd NEVER even have to drop the bow...
Or soak a feat for 'Imp. Unarmed Strike'.
Honestly I think the Pathfinder Arcane Archer is an abomination that needs to be severly re-written or just thrown out like they did the Dwarven Defender.
Take the draconic bloodline, and you have 2 1D6 claw attacks. Sure, that may not sound like much, but if you get snuck up on or otherwise engaged in melee, it may be a lifesaver compared to taking a move action and attack of opportunity to draw a melee weapon.Or you could just wear spiked gauntlets...
Or while you're taking obligatory levels of classes, dip for a level of Monk so you'd NEVER even have to drop the bow...
Or soak a feat for 'Imp. Unarmed Strike'.
Spiked gauntlets could be good... get them enchanted +5 Defending so you get a use out of them while not punching someone's face in...
A level in monk would eat up another level from elsewhere with no BAB... flurry of blows still doesn't equal two natural weapons though (which are at full BAB each) though stunning fist might be a good "get away" feature to have.
Imp. Unarmed strike offers nothing in and of itself that is worthwhile and eats a feat that is better spent elsewhere.
By the way, spell-like abilities won't work for arcane archer because it requires the ability to cast arcane spells of at least 1st level.
By using sorcerer to go into arcane archer with the draconic bloodline, you set yourself up to follow those 10 levels in arcane archer with Dragon Disciple which offers strength increase to help with that mighty composite longbow. The HD increase is slightly helpful and the Natural armor is good too. The BAB isn't great but you increase your spell abilities without too much lose anywhere else.
In the mean time those nonmagical arrows of yours are the equivalent of +6 magic arrows saving a bunch of money for buying other things.
A different choice could be to go for full eldritch knight followed up with five levels in arcane archer.
Actually, you can't quick draw a scroll, according to pf beta."You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action...Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be
drawn quickly using this feat." (pf beta p.92)
I allow this but only when used with a Handy Haversack.
It's Racial specific(Elf), after removing the Dwarven Defender, for that very reason.
No. race-specific PrCs are good, they're exactly the kind of situation PrCs are there for.
It's still good the DD is gone, because dwarves deserve nothing! :)
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Certainly there are many other options depending on the sorcerer bloodline you choose, or wizard school you specialize in. It just takes some creativity.
Sure, I can agree with that, but the main feature of having the ability to cast arcane spells is the ability Imbue Arrow; that is, to put area-effect spells into your arrows and greatly increase the range of the spell. With the ability to only cast level 1 spells (either from a level in sorcerer/wizard/bard, or from a rogue with major/minor magic talent [which I still think could work]), there's not many good area effect spells you can imbue your arrows with. This is why I suggested using scrolls combined with Use Magic Device, allowing you to more powerful spells (higher than level 1) to imbue your arrows with.
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I still don't see how it would be possible to juggle bow, arrow, and scroll, while moving, and still get a shot off in the same round.
Here's how I see it, and correct me if I'm wrong:
Fishing scroll out of backpack/scrollcase and unrolling it to read: 1 move action.
Casting spell from scroll on arrow: 1 standard action.
Drawing bow can be done with the movement, if you have a BAB +1.
Moving - 1 move action.
Firing: 1 standard action.
By my count, that's 2 move actions and 2 standard actions. Even if the Imbue Arrow allows casting/firing as a standard action, I don't see how you can do all that in a single round without some sort of haste.
Upon closer examination, the Quick Draw feat seems to help in casting and fireing in the same round. Here are 2 scenarios:
Scenario 1 - you have the scroll in hand already
You move into the desire position - 1 move action
You cast, then quick draw and fire - 1 standard action
It is important to realize that firing takes place right after casting, because the Imbue Arrow ability effectively combines the 2 actions into 1. Thus, you need the Quick Draw feat to draw you bow since you won't be able to draw it as part of a move action.
Scenario 2 - you don't have the scroll in hand
You take scroll out - move action
You cast, then quick draw and fire - 1 standard action
When you don't have the scroll out, you can only pull off casting and firing in the same round if you don't move.
However, these two scenarios would only work IF YOU CAN PERFORM A FREE ACTION (drawing via Quick Draw) IN THE MIDDLE OF A STANDARD ACTION (cast then fire). If you cannot, then you would need to have both the scroll and the bow out to begin with. However, that means you would have to use the scroll in your left hand while holding the bow in right hand. Can you use a scroll with only 1 hand? Are there pathfinder feats out there that allows easier scroll retrieval/casting? Can you perhaps use a swift action to trigger a spell/magic item, which in terms trigger the scroll?
Either way, users of the Imbue Arrow ability has to find a way to cast and fire in the same round because pathfinder specifically states "the arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted" (prestige class, p.3).
I allow this but only when used with a Handy Haversack.
Actually, you can't quick draw a scroll, according to pf beta."You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action...Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be
drawn quickly using this feat." (pf beta p.92)
Not sure if there is a pathfinder rule out there that deals with the combined effects of Quick Draw AND Handy Haversack, but beta says "retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action" (pf beta, p. 377).
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Well, it looks like using the major/minor magic rogue talent to go into Arcane Archer is still debatable. As is the ability to use scrolls for the Imbue Arrow ability. My stance is still that both of these aspects are acceptable, but I suppose it is up to the DM to interpret, due to the confusion of the wording.