I'm curious -- what do folks think of the item access in the Pathfinder Society so far? Good, bad or ugly? Are there good things out there to buy, or am I going to be stuck buying a wand of Scare? :-P
Bear in mind that I've only played half of one scenario (Silent Tide) so far, so -- please! -- hide any spoilers.
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Well personally this 'AR' item access system I've always disliked.
I think modules should give influence and the like, but all items should be open and purchasable.
-James
and I disagree with James...I think that the "all items should be open and purchasable" mentality is a big part of what created the 3.5 power creep. The PFS allows more liberal buying of majic items than I do in my home games, and I very rarely have any character deaths, even in scenarios like skinsaw murders, so I believe that the item availability is fine.
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The PFS allows more liberal buying of majic items than I do in my home games, and I very rarely have any character deaths, even in scenarios like skinsaw murders, so I believe that the item availability is fine.
Remember the 'buying' of items is taking a 'share' of the treasure in items instead of cash. There aren't any great open air markets hocking wands etc...
With few exceptions (CLW wands mainly) I like the scarcity of magic items in PFS.
I don't mind limiting magic items, but I'm just curious if there are decent items to buy in the AR. The items that you can get access to via prestige are so-so at best.
For instance, here's what my Taldan wizard could one day buy, if he got enough prestige:
Oil of keen edge 750
Scroll of invisibility sphere 375
Scroll of bear’s endurance 150
Elixir of sneaking 250
Wand of shocking grasp 750
Ring of protection +1 2,000
Wayfinder 500
Cloak of charisma +2 4,000
Any +2 armor or +2 shield 4,000 (+150, +item cost)
Potion of barkskin +3 600
Wand of charm person 750
Any +2 weapon 8,000 (+300, +item cost)
Wand of scare 4,500
Boots of striding and springing 5,500
Any +3 armor or +3 shield 9,000 (+150, +item cost)
Cloak of charisma +4 16,000
Boots of speed 12,000
Gloves of dexterity +2 4,000
They range from the awesome-but-not-as-useful-to-a-wizard (boots of speed, cloak of charisma, gloves of dexterity, magic armor & weapons), to the mediocre (ring of protection +1, wand of charm person), to the downright terrible (wand of scare!).
Is the quality of items that one gets access to on adventure chronicles any better (for a wizard), or about the same? What's the best item that you've seen so far (if you can say without giving spoilers)?
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Well, the problem with item access via record sheet is that, especially in PFS, it is even more limiting than in LG. And the downside, other than offering items waaaay beyond the money held or reasonably achievable in the limited availability frame to the PCs, especially at low levels, is when some module is written with the assumption that one PC in the party owns item X.
Doesn't work very well. Especially if the success of the party in the module hinges on having that access-only item available. This same issue exists with playing a mod in a series if no one in the party has played the earlier mod(s) in the series.
To be honest, the only worse than items only being available through AR is offering an item that costs 30,000 gp as adventure access (this module and the next two, only, in PFS) on an APL2 AR. This, IMO, is beyond stupid, completely ridiculous and well into insulting. Especially if it is an intro module...
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To be honest, the only worse than items only being available through AR is offering an item that costs 30,000 gp as adventure access (this module and the next two, only, in PFS) on an APL2 AR.
Did this happen to be in Dyvers? I'd seen something similar in a 20 minute mod you were essentially punished for playing. Technically it could go longer, but it involved fighting angels, elementals, and being forced into some kind of service.
I guess I see things in a black vs white mentality.If something is too powerful then ban it. Otherwise allow PCs to obtain it.
If one just considers the consumables.. there are far too many to every be represented on an AR...
Consider what this does to wizards trying to learn new spells to gain their bit of advantage over sorcerers..
The only part about the the limited access that I really don't like is that a wizard can't obtain (either by buying or scribing) scrolls of spells they already know. That just seems anti-wizardly to me. :-)
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The only part about the the limited access that I really don't like is that a wizard can't obtain (either by buying or scribing) scrolls of spells they already know. That just seems anti-wizardly to me.
Remember, odds are pretty good you'll be making items once PFS rules come out. I'm also hoping for some better rules for spell books.
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To be honest, the only worse than items only being available through AR is offering an item that costs 30,000 gp as adventure access (this module and the next two, only, in PFS) on an APL2 AR.Did this happen to be in Dyvers? I'd seen something similar in a 20 minute mod you were essentially punished for playing. Technically it could go longer, but it involved fighting angels, elementals, and being forced into some kind of service.
Not in Dyvers. First mod played with one of my characters included, at APL2, access to a Doss Lute, at 9,800 GP cost. Gold gained from the AR was 450gp, standard for a 1 round, non-adapted adventure.
That character's second mod, which was an adapted adventure, Scourge of the Howling Horde, was much saner in item access; the most expensive item on the access list was a wand of longstrider at 375 gp for 25 charges. And it gave much more money because it as a longer adventure.
What I was thinking of, however, was my character's 5th adventure, Core module set in the Duchy of Tenh, which was played up at APL6, the minimum it offered, which had, as the only access at APL6, the Eyepatch of Tenh, which costs 30,500 gp. And the adventure, as an example, offered normal gp for an APL6 mod, 900 gp. It just never added up, to me. And that price is out of line, anyhow, for True Seeing once per day. Not to mention I was playing up for half XP and GP on that one.
Then again, as a last thought, prices on ARs was not always correct. That same AR offered, at APL8, access to a couple of planar forks, but at 200 gp each instead of the normal 50 gp each...
Oh, well, too much said, anyhow.
So how do Pathfinder Society modules compare with Living Greyhawk modules in terms of access, so far? Have people seen 30,000 gp items on a level 3 module?
I guess I'm mostly just wondering if I'm hurting myself if I stock up on a lot of open access items, like level 1 scrolls (say); if there are good items available to buy later on (e.g. a headband of intellect, or wands of CLW/Magic Missile, or a mithril buckler), I'll be hurting myself, but if there aren't any good item, then there's no reason to hoard my money.
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Remember? Was this even said somewhere? I figure it was going to be no item creation period..
Pathfinder is reworking how item creation will be done. That was the reason for not allowing item creation in PFS. Granted item creation may indeed be left out of PFS in the end, but I get the feeling Paizo is satisfied with their efforts and will release that into PFS.
'It also removes some of the incentive to play at the highest tier of a module (for all the access) and the like, which, imho, should not exist at all. Tiers should simply be where the party will be comfortable playing.'
So then no matter what tier the party plays they should find the +3 sword that's only used in the 8-9 tier?
Personally I'd like to see more favors, connections, etc... in the end, but I could do without the bizarre useless crap.
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Why bother to need to give out access to items?
Everything boils down to this question, to which the reply is equally short. If everyone had access to everything (magic item shops) then every <race/class combo> would be outfitted pretty much the same just like WoW.
I prefer my games to be less like WoW.
Why bother to need to give out access to items?Everything boils down to this question, to which the reply is equally short. If everyone had access to everything (magic item shops) then every <race/class combo> would be outfitted pretty much the same just like WoW.
I prefer my games to be less like WoW.
Actually, I would've thought it would be the other way around; with open access, you would get a variety of different types of equipment (e.g. one person likes his +1 flaming ghost touch sword and one person likes his +1 holy sword), whereas if two people got access to the same items in the same order, they'd be pretty similarly equipped (because they both buy the best stuff they have access to at the time).
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Actually, I would've thought it would be the other way around;
Ah but there's the rub, there are certain items that are more useful than others. For instance when LG was coming to it's end many new items became open access including the core 6*.
This meant that many people cashed in older items that were quirky or thematic to their characters for items that offered the best statistical payoff. Others simply had a dragon's horde in coin hoping for the one item to dump it all on, becoming much more powerful in one fell swoop.
I quickly became an oddity for my helm (sometimes called my 'helm of NotMousse just charged into battle again') and lacking some (2) of the core 6.
*The core 6 are the magic items pretty much universal gear no matter what the class. These items are (in random order): +1 weapon (often multiple), +1 armor and shield (or +1 bracers of armor), +2 stat booster (exact ones depend on class), +1 cloak/vest of resistance, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor.
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Actually, I would've thought it would be the other way around; with open access, you would get a variety of different types of equipment (e.g. one person likes his +1 flaming ghost touch sword and one person likes his +1 holy sword), whereas if two people got access to the same items in the same order, they'd be pretty similarly equipped (because they both buy the best stuff they have access to at the time).
But you may not get the same items in te same order. There are currently... 10? 15? tier 1-2 adventures, some people will do silent tide as a high level tier, and hydra's fang at low level, some will do Hydra's fang at high level, and not do silent tide at all.. The whole point of the system is that in a world where it would take the average worker years to earn the gold for a +1 weapon, you have to be at the right place, at the right time to get what you want. Maybe that means saving a few adventures, hoping to get something better to use. Maybe it means passing on something that is 'good' for your class because you only have 2 more adventures to get something that is 'great' for your class. and maybe someone else will take the 'good' thing and 4 potions instead. It builds an extra layer of strategy to the game and at the same gives it some realism. another reason why I think its a good idea to limit it in this instance, is that you HAVE to limit is somewhere. They couldn't say you could buy any magic item at book price.. then you would see some of the more broken magic item compendium items trying to be bought, which creating scenarios under the OGL Paizo couldn't plan for.
Currently there are no magic item compendium items in Pathfinder Society. I expect these items will not show up until campaign rules state they use magic item compendium. (And I expect hell to freeze over before PFS starts to use WotC splatpooks.)
Even if you could buy any allowed magic item at book price, the pool of items would be currently limited to what DMG offers.
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Currently there are no magic item compendium items in Pathfinder Society. I expect these items will not show up until campaign rules state they use magic item compendium. (And I expect hell to freeze over before PFS starts to use WotC splatpooks.)
Even if you could buy any allowed magic item at book price, the pool of items would be currently limited to what DMG offers.
It would require something even more unlikely than Hell freezing over. Paizo can only use items released under the OGL in their products (or stuff they create themselves which doesn't have to be under the OGL, but almost certainly will be). For them to be able to use items from the Magic Item Compendium (or any other WotC product except the SRD and Unearthed Arcana) in their products, WotC would have to allow them to. Given recent events, I'd put money on Satan needing skis before that happens.
I just finished my first Pathfinder Society module, so I got my first taste of the type of items that are available to buy:
Nothing struck me as very exciting, so I might stock up on a few (open access) level 1 potions & scrolls, like Cure Light Wounds and Enlarge Person. Maybe I'll get a familiar, too -- a toad is looking pretty good, right about now...
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Nothing struck me as very exciting, so I might stock up on a few (open access) level 1 potions & scrolls, like Cure Light Wounds and Enlarge Person. Maybe I'll get a familiar, too -- a toad is looking pretty good, right about now...
I just saved all of my $ until the end of my 6th adventure, by then I had enough for a +1 weapon (had also gotten masterwork along the way).
I just saved all of my $ until the end of my 6th adventure, by then I had enough for a +1 weapon (had also gotten masterwork along the way).
Nothing struck me as very exciting, so I might stock up on a few (open access) level 1 potions & scrolls, like Cure Light Wounds and Enlarge Person. Maybe I'll get a familiar, too -- a toad is looking pretty good, right about now...
That's less useful for my wizard, of course. Actually, I can't think of much of anything that I want to buy for under 4,000 gp (headband of intellect, naturally, on the off chance I get access) except for:
- more scrolls (if I find some good ones)
- a mithral buckler (I suspect that's a longshot, though)
- a wand of magic missile with a CL > 1 (another longshot, maybe)
- some more mundane items like alchemical stuff or a light warhorse
I'm pretty sure that's open access. In fact I'd bet on it. They're in the PHB afterall.
- some more mundane items like alchemical stuff or a light warhorse
Yes, I know. Sorry for confusing you by mixing up open access and limited access items in my wish list. :-)
Director of Brand Strategy
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Yes, I know. Sorry for confusing you by mixing up open access and limited access items in my wish list. :-)I'm pretty sure that's open access. In fact I'd bet on it. They're in the PHB afterall.
- some more mundane items like alchemical stuff or a light warhorse
You're still in the lowest tier so wealth is lower in gp. If thy made a headband of intellect available to a tier 1-2 scenario, no one would be able to afford it before its availability expired (2 scenarios later). Rest assured, however, that you'll have access to higher level scrolls, wands, wondrous items, magic weapons, armor and even free social rewards and favors down the line.
You're still in the lowest tier so wealth is lower in gp. If thy made a headband of intellect available to a tier 1-2 scenario, no one would be able to afford it before its availability expired (2 scenarios later). Rest assured, however, that you'll have access to higher level scrolls, wands, wondrous items, magic weapons, armor and even free social rewards and favors down the line.
I know. But the question remains: Will I have access to good scrolls, wands, wondrous items, etc., etc.? (Where "good" is subjective, of course; for instance, as noted above I consider a wand of scare to be "not good".) I'll just have to find out for myself! :-)
With season 1 and re-launching PFS under the PRPG rules, the ability to acquire items will become easier and will be based entirely on your Prestige Award total. We will still reserve the right to outright ban and remove from play any items that seriously imbalance the org play experience. While item acquisition will be easier, expect most of the system to remain unchanged.
With season 1 and re-launching PFS under the PRPG rules, the ability to acquire items will become easier and will be based entirely on your Prestige Award total.
Hmm. That doesn't necessarily sound like an improvement, but I'll reserve my judgment on that one and give it the benefit of the doubt.
With season 1 and re-launching PFS under the PRPG rules, the ability to acquire items will become easier and will be based entirely on your Prestige Award total.
One question, Josh -- since Prestige resets to zero for the beginning of Season 1, does that mean that characters converted from Season 0 will have to lose all their magic items?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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With season 1 and re-launching PFS under the PRPG rules, the ability to acquire items will become easier and will be based entirely on your Prestige Award total.One question, Josh -- since Prestige resets to zero for the beginning of Season 1, does that mean that characters converted from Season 0 will have to lose all their magic items?
Does prestige reset? I was under the impression that your prestige stayed with your PC through their whole career. I believe that the running total of which faction if "in the lead" resets each season, but not a character's individual achievements.
Does prestige reset? I was under the impression that your prestige stayed with your PC through their whole career. I believe that the running total of which faction if "in the lead" resets each season, but not a character's individual achievements.
Oh, you're right. I think I even figured that out for myself once before, then I promptly forgot!
Yeah, prestige does not reset.
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I have several major issues with Access:
1. Tying Stat boosters with Factions limits certain PC classes to choosing those Stat boosters. Access to Stat boosters should be tied to overall prestige via the Pathfinder society:
e.g: Have at least 20 PA points? you can now buy any +2 stat booster.
It is a shame that I have already seen folk make role-playing decisions based on what class they are, to ensure that they get access to the primary stat booster required.
Honestly why does Chelix have the wisdom booster anyway? (That is a much more Osirion thing) whoever decided that was on crack, definitely an Int/Cha based faction... If they had common sense they wouldn't sell their souls...
So if you DO choose a faction based on accurate role-playing you are worse off, which is something I HATE.
2. Wand of Cure light wounds, and special materials such as cold iron and silver need to be open. Too many monsters have that sort of DR and without access, you are making it really difficult.
There is almost NO abuse in a wand of CLW, in fact it means that the party cleric can actually have some fun instead of just healing all the time, or forcing PCs to spend what little gold they have on potions/scrolls constantly.
Note:
Cold iron and silver are open access.
Scrolls of CLW aren't really much more expensive than wand charges.
I have several major issues with Access:
1. Tying Stat boosters with Factions limits certain PC classes to choosing those Stat boosters. Access to Stat boosters should be tied to overall prestige via the Pathfinder society:
e.g: Have at least 20 PA points? you can now buy any +2 stat booster.
It is a shame that I have already seen folk make role-playing decisions based on what class they are, to ensure that they get access to the primary stat booster required.
Honestly why does Chelix have the wisdom booster anyway? (That is a much more Osirion thing) whoever decided that was on crack, definitely an Int/Cha based faction... If they had common sense they wouldn't sell their souls...
So if you DO choose a faction based on accurate role-playing you are worse off, which is something I HATE.
2. Wand of Cure light wounds, and special materials such as cold iron and silver need to be open. Too many monsters have that sort of DR and without access, you are making it really difficult.
There is almost NO abuse in a wand of CLW, in fact it means that the party cleric can actually have some fun instead of just healing all the time, or forcing PCs to spend what little gold they have on potions/scrolls constantly.
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Scrolls of CLW aren't really much more expensive than wand charges.
I'm just doing a little old Masters of Finance, so I don't know much about money *flaps eye-lashes innocently* :D
But TWICE the cost is significant. Especially when you factor in that in LG I have seen entire wands used up in adventurs where dice rolling went bad or you got stuck with a useless player at a Con.
Also factor in out of combat healing for the length of the character's life and it is extremely significant. It is especially noticeable when you consider that the Society's gold to XP ratio doesn't factor in that at level X, a PC should have Y gold *AFTER* using consumables required to get to that level. (The gold being a snapshot in time). Instead the Society is giving a PC Y gold less whatever consumables they needed to get to level X. Hence a PC will always be behind the gold curve.
Just something to consider. The gold curve is a net worth of a PC at a point in time, not how much gold they should get each mod to get to that level. It should be a *little* bit more to account for things like potions, scrolls, NPC castings of restoration (already required in one 1-2 module) etc. Alternatively, Mods with Ability Drain at low levels need to consider the costs to a 1st level PC...
Scrolls of CLW aren't really much more expensive than wand charges.
I'm just doing a little old Masters of Finance, so I don't know much about money *flaps eye-lashes innocently* :D
But TWICE the cost is significant.
I already have a Master of Finance degree, and I can tell you that 2*15 != 25. :D
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Scrolls of CLW aren't really much more expensive than wand charges.
Touche you. That'll learn me to do it in my head flippantly.
But by the same token, a 40% increase in cost for no real reason at all is expensive. Especially when one factors in the amount of healing an entire party requires, coupled with the fact that in many cases other people use their resources to pay for some players who are too selfish/cheap to buy their own healing.
It is an unecessary cost, that when coupled with the fact that PCs are behind the gold curve (that surely cannot be in dispute) seems to be an irritating factor that could be avoided.
There is a reason that in the final years of LG Wands of CLW were 'open' access. It took 7 years to work it out but we/they did - and Pathfinder could learn from that.
Scrolls of CLW aren't really much more expensive than wand charges.
Touche you. That'll learn me to do it in my head flippantly.
But by the same token, a 40% increase in cost for no real reason at all is expensive. Especially when one factors in the amount of healing an entire party requires, coupled with the fact that in many cases other people use their resources to pay for some players who are too selfish/cheap to buy their own healing.
It is an unecessary cost, that when coupled with the fact that PCs are behind the gold curve (that surely cannot be in dispute) seems to be an irritating factor that could be avoided.
There is a reason that in the final years of LG Wands of CLW were 'open' access. It took 7 years to work it out but we/they did - and Pathfinder could learn from that.
I agree that it would be nice to have open access wands of CLW, but since scrolls are available for now, I'm not too worried about it personally.
I'm more concerned about (a) the extremely limited choices available for wizards, sorcerers, monks, and other characters who don't use magic weapons & armor, and (b) the fact that a wizard doesn't have access to scrolls of spells that are in his spellbook.
P.S. Where are you studying finance?
-hogarth, U. of Waterloo Finance, class of '01
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I'm more concerned about (a) the extremely limited choices available for wizards, sorcerers, monks, and other characters who don't use magic weapons & armor, and (b) the fact that a wizard doesn't have access to scrolls of spells that are in his spellbook.P.S. Where are you studying finance?
-hogarth, U. of Waterloo Finance, class of '01
Definitely Agreed there. There is a clear disparity between classes, and frankly I would prefer to see a big block of 'open access' items.
Seriously, they would do well to find out how Access was handled in LG, building on their experience would help a LOT. It is true that the LGCS was complicated, but lets face it, it NEEDS to be.
I am currently in my first semester of my Masters at the University of New South Wales (I am an Aussie) the Smiley denoted that I didn't really know what I was talking about, which is funnier considering I got my calculation wrong :P
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I don't mind limiting magic items, but I'm just curious if there are decent items to buy in the AR. The items that you can get access to via prestige are so-so at best.
For instance, here's what my Taldan wizard could one day buy, if he got enough prestige:
[...]
They range from the awesome-but-not-as-useful-to-a-wizard (boots of speed, cloak of charisma, gloves of dexterity, magic armor & weapons), to the mediocre (ring of protection +1, wand of charm person), to the downright terrible (wand of scare!).
Is the quality of items that one gets access to on adventure chronicles any better (for a wizard), or about the same? What's the best item that you've seen so far (if you can say without giving spoilers)?
Having played 11 mods, I can say that the best item I've seen was the MW Mithril Chain Shirt. Sadly, I played the mod at too low a tier to get it. OTOH, in another mod I was able to pick up a nice item for a rarer body slot. It was a race to get enough gold for it too, as I was feeling serious urges of "It Must Be Mine!" Some items have been oddly common. (+2 Full Plate, I'm looking at you.) I've also seen some of the stat boost items, so if you need a stat that your faction doesn't do, try and keep some cash handy, as you never know.
As for wizards, I get the impression that PFS encourages you to pick spells on your free picks that are the less common spells. Spellbooks as loot come to you as a bunch of scrolls, which you can purchase and pay the scribing fee to load into your book. So far, many of the spells I've seen on chronicles tend to be stuff I pick up early. I can't tell though if it's because of the specialty of the defeated wizard. I suspect some of the spells available are the ones they are because they expect many people to play conjurers from Cheliax, too. Another pattern I've noticed (so far) is a lack of spells that make terrain challenges less interesting. This last observation could be a design decision, or it could be that the adventures I've played (1-7, 9-12) came early, so they figured they'd all be played on lowest tier anyway, before anyone expected to have the option of using bypassing magic. Time will tell.
Thanks, logic_poet, that's the kind of feedback I was looking for!
Honestly why does Chelix have the wisdom booster anyway? (That is a much more Osirion thing) whoever decided that was on crack, definitely an Int/Cha based faction...
I guess I'm on crack. Better tell the wife.
With season 1 and re-launching PFS under the PRPG rules, the ability to acquire items will become easier and will be based entirely on your Prestige Award total. We will still reserve the right to outright ban and remove from play any items that seriously imbalance the org play experience. While item acquisition will be easier, expect most of the system to remain unchanged.
Also quoting myself again to note the system is changing with Season 1.
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Honestly why does Chelix have the wisdom booster anyway? (That is a much more Osirion thing) whoever decided that was on crack, definitely an Int/Cha based faction...I guess I'm on crack. Better tell the wife.
Well you are on crack!
:) I forgive you, and in no way meant offence, It just seems like an error to me, rather than a deliberate decision.
It was bizarre seeing folks decide to play Cheliax so they could get a wisdom booster!
Anyway it will be fixed so no real problem.
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I do defenitely agree with the 'limited open access' policy we are using now in PFS Year 0.
As Josh is said, we could increase the PA based rewards in Year 1, but not by too much.
I you give access to almost everything, you just take out the fun out of the game, and you will have very few good things to put as reward in the adventure chronicles.
We should let the players find the 'mostly sought items" on a dead NPC (or given by a friendly NPC)and let the players eager to find these as rewards on the chronicle sheet.
I would also replace the unlimited cantrip ability of PFSRPG spell casters by putting wands of zero-level spells as rewards. A fully charged wand at 350gp is still quite affordable (and will probably last for your character's lifetime!).
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Learn from the mistakes of prior campaigns in this respect.
James
Humm....not sure of which mistakes in which campaign you are talking about, but I do not want to discuss previous campaigns (there would be too much to say).
Let's discuss of this present campaign, here in Golarion. I am wondering were would be coming from all these items available to everyone every time!
Let's talk about say a longsword +5. You would need a very great factory to create a sufficient amount of these! What would say Lord Gyr when each of his guard requiring 'the same' swords available to any unknown adventurer? Would he ruin his treasury or just shut down that stupid factory?
Same reasoning about that 'keen +3 rapier of venom' factory: the thieve's guild gets in, kill everyone, steal everything, and they get the exclusivity for this weapon.
How about using slaves for making large quantities of 'ring of freedom of movement' or 'vest of escape'? Maybe some problems to expect here too.
Or maybe a vending machine for 'rings of sustenance' much more practical than to just buy food. You get a problem if you wish to purchase a ring of feather fall from the vending machine: you pay; you press the button; but the ring does not falls... (even if you tilt the machine upside down the stupid ring does not falls).