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In my current campaign, it has become abundantly clear that the DM has no intent on ever putting our character's in situations that will get them killed, and even if we get into a situation that would normally result in death, he will make sure that we do not die.
Normally this would not be a problem, but it does kinda bother me a bit and shatters my suspension of disbelief. Example: One of the party members sat in a comfy chair in the middle of a dangerous "obstacle course" dungeon, and the chair fell down into a pit trap underneath. The gnome got a reflex save to avoid falling with it, and he rolled a 1. The DM cringed because he knew that this was essentially a save or die trap, and allowed him to roll a 2nd save to catch the edge. That dreaded 1 came up yet again. At that point, he gave the other party members a chance to catch him (even though we were roughly 20 feet away, but he glossed over that part), so the rogue apparently leapt across the room to catch the gnome.
That was just the most extreme case so far, but like I said, he has made it abundantly clear that we will not die, period. In fact, my character's only taken damage once so far in the campaign, and we have been playing weekly for a few months now. With my previous long-standing DM, he never went out of his way to save us, sometimes even going so far as to put something meant to deliberately kill us if interacted with. While that was just yet another extreme, it was an extreme I was used to. It kept the disruptive characters in line because pissing off the other party members usually resulted in death.
In this campaign though, and I promise I'm getting to the point, the disruptive people know that there is absolutely no repercussion for their character's actions. It may just be that I DMed a very different way, as I had no problem with killing off a character if they tried to bite off more than they could chew, or did something retarded, but our current DM always bends reality to make sure we come out on top. It bugs the crap outa me! We have a retarded chaotic cleric that bases whether he will be productive or counter-productive on a percentile roll. Example: The rest of the party starts to move silently. Cleric [rolls percentile] "I shout". And because he knows that no one will ever die, he can just sit there and laugh about it... there has to be consequences, or everything will descend into chaos!!!
I enjoy a little bit more realism (though not so far as to be a simulationist) but this DM wants us to win, no matter what. I'm just not used to it, but it's a losing argument to try and change his mind because he's deathly afraid that he'll be called a bad DM (even though he's been DMing for years). Also, we have about 9 members (5 that show up regularly) and we could stand to lose a few ;)
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Talk to your DM (the default advice). Bending the rules when PCs are doing something heroic to avoid their death seems perfectly reasonably to me. PCs dying because they or their players are being utterly stupid is another matter. It might be that the DM has a subplot concerning the PCs going which he doesn't want to disrupt by the PCs actually dying - I have fallen into this myself while DMing. Or it may be he doesn't want to upset the players by killing cherished PCs, which isn't necessarily invalid either. But the very occasional death can be salutary to giving the party a kick up the backside and making them play smart. It's a balance. As you say, it is only really a problem is players take advantage of it.
Hehe, in my Age of Worms game my players asked me to run a rogue, so they could have a chance with traps (they all had other concepts in mind).
So I made a DMPC named Lenny Steelglitter, gnome rogue. My dice are swingy (the dreaded DM dice, hitting median 10 by rolling a lot of 1s and 20s) so he has had some epic win and epic fail.
Specifically, in 3FoE (Age of Worms) he got crit by a greataxe (Paizo Crit Deck) and was gutted. Total damage + con damage took him from nearly full to dead.
Has since been reincarnated as per his wishes. Now he's a gnoll rogue.
My PCs know that death is one crappy dice roll away. Luck is what allows them to roll d20s for their rolls, rather than 2d4+6 (what I use for background NPCs). PCs take the big risks.
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The problem is that we do have players that will take advantage of that. I already talked to him, and I've also observed his reactions to situations in-game. Talking to him won't change anything. We have at least 3 people who almost got their characters killed because they were being stupid, but got saved by the DM, and one person that has been saved from getting killed by the party because he keeps waving a rod of wonder at us. He launched a lightning bolt at one of us with it, and the DM had it arc around that specific 5-foot square so we wouldn't have a reason to kill him. That player with the rod also tried to poison us. And we're not allowed to do a g~@+~&n thing! It's a weird mix of being invincible and powerless all at the same time.
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Well, either you mention it to him again, or you live with it, or you play somewhere else, or someone else DMs. You might have said something but unless you were alone you probably couldn't list the problems and the consequences - i.e. so-and-so is a dick and is taking advantage. In the end, you need to be clear why he is doing it - i.e. why does he think he will be a "bad DM" if any PCs die - and address that in whatever way seems appropriate. You might want to point out to him that there are such things as bad players too, and that saving them from themselves is not the job of any DM, good or bad. Arguably, he already is a bad DM in lots of ways, as PCs are running riot and players are annoying other players.
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Good Advice. One player really has pushed it to the point that the DM has to threaten us with head-exploding is we attack said player, yet he's allowed to make the game less enjoyable by being completely counter-productive, just because they've known each other longer.
And quitting or changing DM's isn't really an option, as the only option other than playing this campaign is just not playing D&D at all or, even worse, playing 4E with the RPGA.
Since you do not seem to be making any progress with the GM, maybe you could talk to the disruptive player(s). Maybe they wanted to play Toon instead of D&D.
At this point, I'd give it up for a loss. Get together (in private)with any other players that are similarly dissatisfied, and kill the cleric (or whoever else is being dumb). That sould solve both the problem of the stupid characters, and the problem of noone ever dying! Sometimes infighting happens in parties, and it may be good to know what side your bread is buttered on, meaning who you can trust to have your back.
Yeah, I know its possibly counter-productive advice, but things like this have happened in our group before. It's actually kind of fun to have the party split right down the middle and have one faction launch a preemptive strike on the other faction.
If you're afraid of losing friends by doing this, you don't HAVE to kill them...you can just teach them a lesson, maybe even a humorous one. For example, we were playing in a neutral-aligned party. My character (a half-orc monk) was friends with my roommate's character (an elven order of the bow initiate). We had a mutual friend make a crazy barbarian/rogue and join us. So the monk and the elf are skulking through the woods doing a training exercise when the barb/rog comes up and out of nowhere sneak attacks the crap out of the elf, for no reason. Pretty much drops him in one round. My monk attacks the barb/rog, and of course he rages and comes at me. I am very good at building monks.
Long story short, soon I am tying the unconscious barbarian upside down naked to a tree, and then I and the elf sell all his clothing, gear and magic items in a nearby town. He never attacked one of us again, in YEARS of gaming together. :D
Actually, that's a good idea. Don't try to kill him, because the DM will interfere, but the next time he tries that, fight back. Subdue him, but don't try to kill him, and take all his stuff. Including the rod.
Take cover, I'm about to spew a bunch of advice all over this thread!
My first advice is: Better not playing at all than playing a game you don't enjoy. For a time, I thought that bad RPGs were better than not playing at all, but I changed that opinion!
So if the GM won't see reason, you might think really hard about it. And maybe, if you all quit on him, or seriously threaten to (telling him that it's just no fun any more), he might change his ways.
The second piece of advice: Talk to the disruptive player. Maybe he doesn't want ot be a jerk and thinks you're having fun. Make clear to him that you aren't.
We had this sort of game once. We were the Invincible Train. Nothing could happen to us, but the story would unfold the way the GM wanted it, and there was nothing we would do.
He made if fairly obvious that he was afraid of killing characters. I mean, I have fudged the dice and had enemies act below their tactical best to improve the players' odds, but I try not to make it obvious, and I usually only do it if I underestemated a monster (and fleeing is not an option) or if they have really rotten luck.
But this guy didn't even try to cover it up. "How many HP do you have?" "8" "Then they don't attack you".
One player was actually fed up with his character (just a streak of really bad dice luck, which he wanted to bury with his character. You know how superstitious roleplayers can be) but wasn't allowed to change. So he planned to commit "creative suicide", i.e. get himself killed in action.
We ended up laying waste to a couple of blocks of Waterdeep (that really big metropolis that' home to lots of high-level characters, including one epic-level, chosen-of-the-goddess-of-magic archmage and his equally epic and chosen lover, both of which care very much about the city) without any serious retaliation. By all rights, we should have been a red smear on the city's pavement, but we were able to get out.
For a while, we exploited that.
Anyway, talk to the people who make this game not fun for you, and if they won't change, seriously think about finding new players, or a new hobby until you find new players. Or start GMing yourself!
As for how your character, the Invincible Train, is going to leave the campaign: Decide that he hates the Rod of Wonder character and attack him. After your character's head explodes, choose not to make a new character.
The second piece of advice: Talk to the disruptive player. Maybe he doesn't want ot be a jerk and thinks you're having fun. Make clear to him that you aren't.
This is good advice. It might be that the player is totally bored because his character cannot die, and that he is reacting in this way because of the DM. The only way you can find out if this is so, is talking to this player. The player might actually be your ally.
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Thing is: the DM and the disruptive player have been playing together for years, and we heard numerous stories about how it is his only goal to be as disruptive to the party as possible, and always plays some insane character so he can claim he has a reason. The absolute only reason he is getting away with doing what he's been doing is because of the DM's very adamant "don't touch the other party members, period" rule. In one of the sessions when it almost got to the point when one of the players was about to kill the cleric, the DM threatened to shut down the entire campaign, just for the cleric. In any of my other parties, we would have strung him up long ago.
But that aside, I don't want to quit. I do have fun at the sessions, but some of the things this player does detract from that fun. Like when I offered to buy him a wand of Cure Light Wounds he asked if he could use it on the enemy. And he never casts spells. Talking to him won't work because it's his goal to play an annoying ass character, and the DM will always be on his side, no matter what. And if things don't go the way the player wants, he's the DM's ride so if he wants to leave the session's over.
Ahhh....then it looks like you might have to step into the DM shoes yourself. If there are other players who are dissatisfied as you are, they should jump at the chance.
I have a low tolerance for douchebag players who seek to purposefully disrupt the game, and ruin others' gaming experience.
I would step into the DM shoes if I were you, and I WOULD allow this player to participate...then I'd show him the harsh reality of a campaign world where he CAN die. I wouldn't spitefully murder his character, but I wouldn't let him get away with anything, either. There would be consequences to his actions, and if the other players wanted to kill him?
May the best man win.
Damn, they sound like a bunch of pricks. And yes, you can tell them I said that.
I think you're screwed. It seems it's the way they want to play, so either you suck up to it or quit. I doubt they will change because it's ow they get their kicks.
You could always meet the guy out of the game, tie him to a lamp post in some one-horse town and decorate him with spraypaint.
Or, you all quit his campaign and start your own. Do you need those two? Wouldn't it be more fun without them? If yes, then let them go to hell and let someone else (maybe you, maybe another player) be the GM.
Yep, crappy DM with crappy attention seeking best-buddy.
It's politics, revolt, get out. Maybe you could use the line,"I'm out! Any of you guys with me?"
There is no correct way to play DnD. Having said that, without an element of danger, it's pretty difficult to extract the buzz from surviving some hard encounter. Sounds like the DM is in it for himself.
Would you ride your bike really fast or play a contact sport or have sex in public if there wasn't some element of risk?
Didn't think so.
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I was considering that, and I do have a campaign world that's been on the back burner for awhile now... I think I might start doing some more writing to try and get that ready to play. I just have a hard time keeping my attention on it to come up with 4-5 hours worth of stuff to do.
And they are 25-30ish, and everyone else is roughly 20 (including myself).
One of the other players (my partner in crime, Midnight756) is planning on teaching the DM the hard way that he can't change everything like that (not without blatantly striking him down with lightning or making his character implode). He's treating the problem character like a baby with a rattle (because that's pretty much what he is) and the DM like a child. Fortunately, he is willing to sink lower than I am.
I quit my game when I stopped enjoying it... trust me when I say no D&D is better than bad D&D.
My cantankerous side says to murder the offending character before declaring yourself done. However, this would give them the opportunity to be self righteous and say "jeeze what an ass, glad he's gone."
If you murder the player's character, he will just make a new one and start his annoying practices all over again, or probably worse out of some kind of feeling of revenge.
I think I know this type of player. I had one once and he spoiled the game for everybody. I talked to this player and told him to change his playing style, but he explicitly did not want to do this, since that was the way he played. Then I told him he could not play in my game anymore, since I did not want the other players to quit. It is the only time in more than 20 years of DM-ing I ever kicked someone out of the group, but the group was better for it and I do not regret it one minute.
Would you ride your bike really fast or play a contact sport or have sex in public if there wasn't some element of risk?
Public sex without the risk becomes attractive because of the convenience factor. Feeling horny but you're far away from home, and the hotels around are too expensive? Let's just do it right here!
I think there are societies/social groups who think like that. Sex in public? Why not? And not because of the risk, because there is none for them.
I think I know this type of player. I had one once and he spoiled the game for everybody. I talked to this player and told him to change his playing style, but he explicitly did not want to do this, since that was the way he played. Then I told him he could not play in my game anymore, since I did not want the other players to quit. It is the only time in more than 20 years of DM-ing I ever kicked someone out of the group, but the group was better for it and I do not regret it one minute.
I heard of one guy (who I did and do play with, but he apparently doesn't do that any more) play a greedy minotaur. The greedy part was his excuse to take all the treasure, and because his character (2e) was so powerful, none of the others could have defeated him, so he got all the treasure.
The other players were too wussy to band together (one tried to get them together, but they chickened out), and the GM was too weak and inexperienced to step in. The campaign died because of the situation.
I also kicked someone out of my group because of his behaviour. He'd constantly do stuff I said beforehand I wouldn't want (I said I wanted heroic characters, and his was morally ambiguous), got magic item prices wrong (stuff that became more expansive in 3.5 because it was way too cheap in 3.0) - and when he didn't get what he wanted, he became quite offensive.
Life's too short to waste on idiots.
I was considering that, and I do have a campaign world that's been on the back burner for awhile now... I think I might start doing some more writing to try and get that ready to play. I just have a hard time keeping my attention on it to come up with 4-5 hours worth of stuff to do.
Have you considered running modules? I know of one game company who reputedly has great adventure modules and even whole "adventure paths". Might be worth checking out... ;-)
Other than that, see this as an opportunity!
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He's right - the Adventure Paths make a great way for you to take your bits and pieces you've come up with yourself and put them into a bigger story arc.
I had been messing around for years with some ideas that had been bouncing in my head about some fun piratey-nautical stuff... some neat fun ideas, but not nearly enough to build an entire campaign around, and nothing to connect the separate ideas together.
Then I read about the Savage Tide AP. Problem solved! I used the framework of Savage Tide, subtracted out a few non-essential parts from the story, added some of my own stuff I'd been toying with, and we were off and running!
So that's what you could do, too... find an AP that fits well with some of your own ideas and use it to put them all together into a better over-arching plot and story line than you could come up with yourself. :)
You could always go the passive aggressive route and do the same thing to the offending player. Whenever the GM tries to stop you, whine about partial treatment. Be sure to do all the whining at the table, in front of everyone else. And make sure it disrupts play for extended periods of time. Oh and bring it up again ten minutes later.
When they (GM and his bosom buddy), point out that you only did exactly what bosom buddy did. Tell them whatever frustration and irritation they felt that led them to kicking you out is what everyone else has been feeling the entire time.
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You could always go the passive aggressive route and do the same thing to the offending player. Whenever the GM tries to stop you, whine about partial treatment. Be sure to do all the whining at the table, in front of everyone else. And make sure it disrupts play for extended periods of time. Oh and bring it up again ten minutes later.
When they (GM and his bosom buddy), point out that you only did exactly what bosom buddy did. Tell them whatever frustration and irritation they felt that led them to kicking you out is what everyone else has been feeling the entire time.
Or punch the ignorant f#$@ in the grill and walk out saying "If you were cheating and being an ass at a poker game you would have the same reaction, you game disrupting, infantile douche-bag." You can't attack the PC in-game.....the only DM in life is the legal system. If you have no priors you will get a hand slap and maybe a fine.
Or punch the ignorant f#&~ in the grill and walk out saying "If you were cheating and being an ass at a poker game you would have the same reaction, you game disrupting, infantile douche-bag." You can't attack the PC in-game.....the only DM in life is the legal system. If you have no priors you will get a hand slap and maybe a fine.
LOL... I would never follow this advice (they do sound like they deserve it). But I thought the way Fake Healer presented this was pretty funny.
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Just a note: The DM is a pretty cool guy, my only problem with him is that he's a little too nice (doesn't want to kill players, gives the disruptive player pacifiers in an attempt to get him to not ruin the game). Also, the disruptive player isn't going to be playing this week, so we'll get a chance to see what it's like without him.
Never let the Nice Guy behind the screen! Can't work.
In my opinion, GM screens need to be personalised. Only one person can use one. And sell them in locked containers. And put the key into a puppy, so the only way to be a GM is to dismember the puppy to get the key for the screen.
Or at least have some screening. Let everyone take a weapon test. Those who pass are allowed to own and carry weapons. Those who don't are allowed to be GMs.
I like Fake Healer's idea. I have threatened to kick some of my players in the leg (I fight MMA). Never quite had to but I have had to put one in a choke hold, that was us playing around tho.
I like Fake Healer's idea. I have threatened to kick some of my players in the leg (I fight MMA). Never quite had to but I have had to put one in a choke hold, that was us playing around tho.
This physical threats concept intrigues me and I like to learn more.
I think I have to learn how to run the game with one hand so I can hold a martial weapon in the other.
Hm... I'm just testing, and I think I can rest it on one hand and the floor, stopping it with one foot to stop it from slipping down. Polearms really are the GM's best friends - easy to hold threateningly while GMing, and the reach means I can poke or chop at everyone at the table without getting up!
If any of my players read this: You've been warned.
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Only just recently a friend was DMing for me (a rare and wonderful experience) and he was also too nice.
And while I think the other posters are correct in that this is a lost cause, I handled my situation by waiting for a combat that was a little tougher and at the end telling the DM that that was his best encounter yet -- because it was tougher. After a few more sessions of positive reinforcement, "Man, "DM", that was awesome; I have no IDEA how we survived That!, our DM became a much more frightening DM. Certainly no TPKs or crap like that; we still win, but it can be scary and is much more fun.
-W. E. Ray
I think I have to learn how to run the game with one hand so I can hold a martial weapon in the other.
Does that mean that if I DM a group that accepts my authority already that I should be able to dual-wield two D&D groups? Like Two-Weapon Fighting?! Sweet! Or does my second group have to be a light-weapo... err.. bunch of newbs to D&D?
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Weeeeeeell..... We had another session tonight, and there were some good points and some bad points.
The Cleric used his Rod of Wonder at a random time, and that magic number finally came up - 69. He shrunk to the size of a rat, and was already blue, and this was in the middle of a busy marketplace. About a minute went by and he was already back to his normal size due to DM intervention. The captain of the Guard walked up to him and took him to a wizard who returned him to size and just asked for an ambiguous favor that none of us (the rest of the party) will ever honor in a million freakin' years. He got all of his stuff back, even though it all fell to the ground in the middle of a marketplace in a sleazy town. The only thing that could really be considered a penalty to the item was immediately reversed.
The good points are that we finally got out of that dungeon and to a town, and most everything went according to plan.
Weeeeeeell..... We had another session tonight, and there were some good points and some bad points.
The Cleric used his Rod of Wonder at a random time, and that magic number finally came up - 69. He shrunk to the size of a rat, and was already blue, and this was in the middle of a busy marketplace. About a minute went by and he was already back to his normal size due to DM intervention. The captain of the Guard walked up to him and took him to a wizard who returned him to size and just asked for an ambiguous favor that none of us (the rest of the party) will ever honor in a million freakin' years. He got all of his stuff back, even though it all fell to the ground in the middle of a marketplace in a sleazy town. The only thing that could really be considered a penalty to the item was immediately reversed.
The good points are that we finally got out of that dungeon and to a town, and most everything went according to plan.
Alright, I really don't mean offense by this but I know it will cause offense: grow a spine, seriously. You don't seem happy with how this is going, claiming that you "finally" got out of the dungeon indicates to me you weren't enjoying it up to that point.
Confront the DM about it, be nice and respectful but firm. If the DM still doesn't listen, leave and inform him that you aren't willing to play in a game that lacks fun for you; especially with such a disruptive player. At that point you can talk to the other sympathetic players about starting a new game. DMing can be fun and doesn't need a huge amount of pre-game planning if you get good at winging it.
And again, from personal experience: no D&D is better than bad D&D.
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The "finally" comment was actually about the length of the sessions that caused the dungeon to take about 5 sessions. I had fun overall. Please do not try to interpret my feelings from a block of text I wrote, as it is impossible to lend tone of voice to text and your interpretation will most likely be wrong due to that.
I think I have to learn how to run the game with one hand so I can hold a martial weapon in the other.Does that mean that if I DM a group that accepts my authority already that I should be able to dual-wield two D&D groups? Like Two-Weapon Fighting?! Sweet! Or does my second group have to be a light-weapo... err.. bunch of newbs to D&D?
Well, if you like cheese, you can go for the equivalent to a dancing weapon or animated shield, and lean the weapon against the wall within reach. Or balance it on your knees.
Wielding two groups at once can be quite taxing, and should not be attepted until higher levels.
It's not like wielding two weapons at once, but more like casting two spells in a round.
