RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
|
Before somebody rushes in to slay the infidel in your midst, let me explain.
I always hated the whole bloodline "ew, look I'm a mutant" take on Sorcerers. What I took to be an unsubstantiated rumor spread, perhaps, by sorcerers themselves to hide the truth ended up getting shanghaied by a bunch of kewl bois who'd much rather be playing World of Darkness. But despite the efforts of WotC to appeal to these kiddies, it still remained possible to create a Sorcerer - which is to say, a pure caster based on charisma (making friends and influencing people), not blood (whatever bloodline has to do with Cha I'll never know).
But paizo wants to push us even further away from a pure caster based on Cha. The class abilities Sorcerers now get are pretty much impossible to integrate into that concept. They lock you down into a specific and arbitrary collection of powers which make little sense.
Then don't use the PF sorcerer. Keep your 3.5 version. Doesn't seem like that's going to break the system. I'm sure when I begin my first PFRPG game there will be some of my players who prefer the old system. Since the two play well together, it doesn't seem like a big deal to keep the one you like. I mean, it's not like 3.x and 4e, where the systems are radically different.
You don't have to follow the concept of bloodlines to play a sorcerer.
A sorcerer doesn't have to have a special heritage, a special blood running in his veins.
It can be played in many other directions :
- A witch, living far from the civilization
- A warlock, adept of the black magic
- A gifted individual, who could call upon magic from his early childhood, for unknown reasons, none in his family being ever close to being a spellcaster
- A natural, an instinctive caster with no training or mentor (like a psionic wilder)
- An hermit, the last survivor of an ancient tradition of mystics
- A former wizard who was expelled from his order early in his training and had to rely on his self-tuition to manipulate the arcane
And there are so many other possibilities.
Sure, each of these examples could also have a link to a bloodline, but not necessary.
The mere fact to be able to spontaneously cast spells while the masters of the art (the wizards) can't is by itself a special ability.
Then don't use the PF sorcerer. Keep your 3.5 version. Doesn't seem like that's going to break the system. I'm sure when I begin my first PFRPG game there will be some of my players who prefer the old system. Since the two play well together, it doesn't seem like a big deal to keep the one you like. I mean, it's not like 3.x and 4e, where the systems are radically different.
Very good answer and advice from James.
In the same idea, i am personally running a D&D3.5 campaign with many houserules.I love Pathfinder but that's not the system i am using.
But i told to my players that if any of them wishes to play a Pathfinder version of a class, that's perfectly ok.
It brings new options and variants, which is always a good thing.
As far as I'm concerned,
The "Arcane Bloodline" *IS* in line with the flavor of 3.5's Sorceror.
I personally don't feel 3.5 gave the impression that "any and everyone" with a high CHA was able to call upon Sorcerous powers, it was just assumed that if you chose (or m-classed into) the Sorceror Class, that you were one of those with latent Arcane Power.
So you're free to ignore the bizarro Bloodlines, "Arcane" exists to satisfy vanilla 3.5 urges.
Also, your definition of 'not backwards compatable' seems pretty vague.
A Pathfinder Arcane Sorceror can do everything a 3.5 Sorceror can (bar changes to spells, i.e. Polymorph), they just get a few more abilities (which we can't know exactly until the Final is released or previewed), JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER CLASS IN PATHFINDER, including Wizards. You don't even EVER have to use these abilities.
And like the previous poster said, there's nothing stopping you from using 3.5 Core Classes:
They *ARE* 100% compatable, which is the design intent. Your "old school" PCs would benefit from the Skill Consolidation, slightly faster Feat Progression, and even the HD bump for d4/d6 classes if you so choose, as well as the global rule and spell changes (Maneuvers, for instance). The "upgrade" to ALL the Core Classes was clearly explained as a response to the percieved superiority of PrC's vs. following a single class all the way to 20th level, which even looking at the Beta I think has been achieved. ...If you don't care about that aspect, using the 3.5 Core Classes with the updated Pathfinder rules is completely do-able.
...In any case, I would wait until the Final Product has been released and you can check it out at your local gaming/book store to see what changes it has actually made. It's been intimated that several areas will be closer to 3.5 than what was seen in the Beta, for example.
...But since the Beta is publicly available and nobody not under NDA has revealed much about the Final Product yet, it's easier to flip out about what one doesn't like in the Beta than to "Embrace the Unknown" and hope you REALLY REALLY like the Final Product.
|
But paizo wants to push us even further away from a pure caster based on Cha. The class abilities Sorcerers now get are pretty much impossible to integrate into that concept. They lock you down into a specific and arbitrary collection of powers which make little sense.
Can you give us some examples in addition to Sorcerers?
Sorcerers, in my book, should be experts in illusion, charm, and conjuring. They should be good at bluff, sense motive, possibly diplomacy. They should be able to make deals with demons and other supernatural beings (fey, elemental lords, perhaps angels) and deceive/confuse/compel mortals. That's what "sorcerer" means to me and I'm ready to see how close to that ideal pf comes.
Those actually sound like great themes/focuses, and of course are as lacking from 3.5 Sorceror at least as much as they are from Pathfinder (the Fey Bloodline probably is most inherently leaning towards that type of focus). Of course, with PF's extra Feats, you have plenty of extra latitude to take Skill Focus:Diplomacy, Spell Focus:Enchantment/Conjuration, etc...
|
Who can say if a "bloodline" is really a bloodline or some pact/influence or training ? I had a campaing were the characters discovered that bardic magic actually was the result of an ancient pact that the bardic colleges of yore had done with the sidhe gentry (they never learnt what was the price).
But all your examples are 100% available to Pathfinder Sorcerors...???
(and PF Sorcerors now have Diplomacy as Class Skill)
Anyhow, I think you should just check out the final whenever it's released :-)
So grab the arcane bloodline (the default) which gives you your familiar back and several non-out-of-line feat choices and spells.
Of course if you want to find reasons to not like there are plenty... after all a melee fighter can't fly, ignore spell effects, fire laser beams from his eyes, and take a full attack in the same round while moving. Apparently that lack is a turn off for some players (tongue firmly in cheek).
I'm sorry, I can't see how the "bloodline" thing affects sorcerers at all, if but to tweak them with differing extra abilities (feats).
In no way does this distort what a 3.5 sorcerer is. In fact in all the years I've played 3.5 sorcerers I always assumed its unique powers over what a wizard can do was derived from some kind of bloodline whether draconic, demonic or fey. Knowing or not knowing which was the actual source meant nothing to affect game play in any manner.
Emphasizing different bloodlines, doesn't force a given sorcerer to be a certain way, attitude, method of play because of the bloodline. Its just at certain higher levels you acquire access to differing feats. What's wrong with that? And how is that non-backwards compatible. I don't see it at all.
Perhaps you haven't explained your point well enough, because I don't get it all.
Final point, just as PF is in fact 100% backwards compatible, means you could rely on 3e sorcerer and in no way be disruptive to PF play. It "seems" like a very petty arguement as to not playing a given game. Again if I understood your point better, I might not have such a negative view.
I just don't see your point.
GP
Actually I'd just go Destined as a blood line, its the most like a non-magical bloodline, bloodline. The real question is do you intend to use other Pathfinder classes in a future game (assuming you buy the book at all) The powercreep issue exist otherwise. Personally I at first thought that the Sorcerer additions work well in bringing the class up to 3.5 classes. But after testing I think they are about rght with each other.
In any case keeping or droping aspects of the game will not hurt Pathfinder adventures. I like CMB and Classes, not as thrilled about the reduction of skills, like Use Rope or Listen. I've kept them, other skill stuff like the mechanics I've kept. Will this really hurt pub. adventures, no not really. So keep the old classes take what you like drop what you don't. I don't see any of your problems with the class as a lack of backward compatibility.
TTFN DRE
It might be helpful to say, "what I consider to be this ridiculous and out-of-character...". Since some of us find it to be just what we were looking for to fix (or begin to fix) and differentiate the spontaneous charismatic arcane spellcaster. For me, it has both great mechanical and great story-telling potential.
As to the backwards compatibility issue, I think that's been pretty well addressed by previous comments.
Director of Games
|
This thread is on real thin ice, and I am worried that the ice may melt due to flames.
To the OP, I can see that you have some concerns and normally I would go out of my way to alleviate them, but since this thread is your first post here in about 10 months, I am wondering a bit about your motivations... of course, I and the rest of the design team are apparently "out of our minds"...
As has been mentioned by many others in this thread, you can easily limit or redefine bloodlines in your game if you like and the arcane bloodline is specifically designed with the old concept in mind. If that is not enough for you.. than perhaps the Pathfinder RPG is not for you.
Your call... lets just try to keep things civil here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The class abilities Sorcerers now get are pretty much impossible to integrate into that concept. They lock you down into a specific and arbitrary collection of powers which make little sense.
I know others have responded, however no one gave examples from the Beta.
Let's look at the Arcane "bloodline":
1. The background description is simply "people in your family might have been wizards, but you can do it through force of will", so to speak. Charisma based pure caster flavour seems intact so far.
2. Class skill, any knowledge. Doesn't break any pure caster concept so far. Reading the knowledge skills, there are a lot of practical, magically related uses of Knowledge Arcana, and no one said it couldn't be something else (knowledge nobility).
3. Bonus spells are all generic magic related, allowing for any caster build you'd want (not really focusing on any theme, more practical "caster role" spells), in keeping with the pure caster theme.
4. Bonus feats are all spell or caster in theme. No weapon focus feats, or ride-by-attack or whatnot. Sure, you might not need or want Iron Will or Skill Focus Knowledge arcana (short of a prestige requirement), but they are also not thematically disparate from "pure caster".
5. Now for the Bloodline Powers.
- Arcane Bond: can be used to be exactly the same as 3.5 Sorcerer (and PF wizard). Literally no change at all if desired.
- Metamagic Adept: Thematically caster oriented... no claws, wings, or other mutations.
- New Arcana: More spells.. still no mutations or weirdness.
- School Power: Effectively a stacking spell focus. Still no mutations or weirdness or even breaking from what a pure caster would have picked, given the choice.
- Arcane Apotheosis: "More magic" ability. Still no mutations or weirdness.
...
That about covers it. The Destined path is somewhat similar, in that it doesn't involve oddball mutations or anything either, just a bunch of luck, etc.
The only thing I can see Pathfinder doing here is providing the option for mutated, oddball sorcerer backgrounds if some people want.
The standard Sorcerer can still be built (built better than before really) with exactly the same flavour as 3.5, by taking the default Arcane "bloodline".
While the new options might not be to everyone's liking, they are still only options, not static class abilities.
Before somebody rushes in to slay the infidel in your midst, let me explain.
I always hated the whole bloodline "ew, look I'm a mutant" take on Sorcerers. What I took to be an unsubstantiated rumor spread, perhaps, by sorcerers themselves to hide the truth ended up getting shanghaied by a bunch of kewl bois who'd much rather be playing World of Darkness. But despite the efforts of WotC to appeal to these kiddies, it still remained possible to create a Sorcerer - which is to say, a pure caster based on charisma (making friends and influencing people), not blood (whatever bloodline has to do with Cha I'll never know).
But paizo wants to push us even further away from a pure caster based on Cha. The class abilities Sorcerers now get are pretty much impossible to integrate into that concept. They lock you down into a specific and arbitrary collection of powers which make little sense.
So, leave it an "unsubstantiated rumor". Just use the basic sorceror, or explain the "bloodlines" as different traditions of sorcery. Or something. I don't see this as a deal breaker for backward compatibility or a killer of ideals / campaign flavor. It's not like the game rule police are going to break down your door and enforce every rule in the book as printed. Haven't you ever changed a rule, left a class / spell / item out or used your own? Do you use every official 3.5 rule / class / item / spell in your game? Given the range of often incompatible material how could you? In the end, it's your game.
Before somebody rushes in to slay the infidel in your midst, let me explain.
I always hated the whole bloodline "ew, look I'm a mutant" take on Sorcerers. What I took to be an unsubstantiated rumor spread, perhaps, by sorcerers themselves to hide the truth ended up getting shanghaied by a bunch of kewl bois who'd much rather be playing World of Darkness. But despite the efforts of WotC to appeal to these kiddies, it still remained possible to create a Sorcerer - which is to say, a pure caster based on charisma (making friends and influencing people), not blood (whatever bloodline has to do with Cha I'll never know).
But paizo wants to push us even further away from a pure caster based on Cha. The class abilities Sorcerers now get are pretty much impossible to integrate into that concept. They lock you down into a specific and arbitrary collection of powers which make little sense.
If you use the Arcane Bloodline sorcerer, it's basically the same as the 3.5 sorcerer.
There are various things I didn't really care for in the Pathfinder Beta, but what I really don't understand is when people argue: "Class X (sorcerer, bard, rogue, whatever) is the same as in 3.5 but with some extra powers. But I don't like the extra powers, therefore class X is worse than in 3.5." If you don't like the "extra stuff", just ignore it! It's not like they took something away from your favourite class.
I won't bother to read the whole thread, I'll just add my tuppence:
If you want a pure caster, go wizard and change the casting attribute.
Or, simply realise that no one is going to put a gun to your head and force you to use the flavour provided (a certain producer of the "world's most famous RPG" would probably love to do so, but even they cannot pull that one off, and Paizo doesn't even want to) and change it. Take whatever "bloodline" takes your fancy and say it is a "pact" made with an appropriate powerful being. Or maybe it's just a "discipline" towards which you pushed your arcane talents.
Or get it into your head that being backwards compatible with 3.5e means that PF absolutely must have a weaksauce, boring wizard variant called "sorcerer" and don't play PF.
There are various things I didn't really care for in the Pathfinder Beta, but what I really don't understand is when people argue: "Class X (sorcerer, bard, rogue, whatever) is the same as in 3.5 but with some extra powers. But I don't like the extra powers, therefore class X is worse than in 3.5." If you don't like the "extra stuff", just ignore it! It's not like they took something away from your favourite class.Actually, it's exactly like that. If the new class is designed to be balanced with these new powers and you remove these new powers, the class is no longer balanced.
Maybe, but that means that the 3.5 version wasn't balanced either, right? I just don't see how you can make something weaker/worse by adding an extra ability.
|
If you use the Arcane Bloodline sorcerer, it's basically the same as the 3.5 sorcerer.
...what I really don't understand is when people argue: "Class X (sorcerer, bard, rogue, whatever) is the same as in 3.5 but with some extra powers. But I don't like the extra powers, therefore class X is worse than in 3.5." If you don't like the "extra stuff", just ignore it! It's not like they took something away from your favourite class.
Actually, it's exactly like that. If the new class is designed to be balanced with these new powers and you remove these new powers, the class is no longer balanced.
We knew that already.
The sorceror was never balanced, it was a weak, crippled version of the wizard.It was a way for DMs to add an NPC to throw arcane spells at the PCs, without having to give a spellbook as loot.
As a 'monster' encounter, they could be tailored to fit the location they were placed in, the allied creatures also present, and the typical opponents.
As a PC, they were a liability, since they did not have the versatility to cover all the situations a typical party would find themselves in.
They still have the disadvantage of a limited, difficult to change list. But now, at least, they are given the benefit of having a deeper understanding of their limited repertoire, via abilities such as Eschew Materials, and the rest of the Arcane bloodline.
|
|
The final draft of PFRPG is in editing now, so you're a bit late. If you were involved in the playtest and commentary process that's been going on for the last year, then I'm sure your feedback has been taken into account.
If you were not involved, why not? That would have been your opportunity to make you voice heard -not a month after official the playtest ended.
WotC will stop producing and distributing 3.5 books in June 2009. So while you could probably stick with 3.5 for now, eventually you won't be able to buy any books for it new or used. Except as they appear in EBay or something.
Eventually you'll have to live with what you have in 3.5. If you have all the books then no problem play 3.5 in perpetude. However, there won't be room for expansion in the end.
One day you'll have to choose 4e or Pathfinder if you want to move forward. So why not make a simple house rule now, get with PF and not be in situation for lack of game products.
I'm afraid d20 will go the way of the Dodo bird, so you'll have to hope OGL keeps producing material, adventure mods to suffice.
Your decision on what's best, but it seems avoiding a game because of some flavor text, and not limiting yourself of Arcane bloodline, seems kind of silly on your part.
GP
I am failing to see an issue here. The arcane bloodline is the 3.5 sorcerer. It gets new things big deal. Any sorc you could make under 3.5 RAW you can with the arcane bloodline
I've read this whole thread and I'm really struggling to see where the Sorcerer bloodlines affect backwards compatibility.
I'd like the OP to be more precise as to how this unduly breaks his entire game to the point he/she does not want to use the Pathfinder RPG.
Or I could just play a different game. We'll see if Paizo wants my money.I won't bother to read the whole thread, I'll just add my tuppence:
If you want a pure caster, go wizard and change the casting attribute.
Or, simply realise that no one is going to put a gun to your head and force you to use the flavour provided (a certain producer of the "world's most famous RPG" would probably love to do so, but even they cannot pull that one off, and Paizo doesn't even want to) and change it. Take whatever "bloodline" takes your fancy and say it is a "pact" made with an appropriate powerful being. Or maybe it's just a "discipline" towards which you pushed your arcane talents.
Or get it into your head that being backwards compatible with 3.5e means that PF absolutely must have a weaksauce, boring wizard variant called "sorcerer" and don't play PF.
So GO play a different game.
I like the changes to the Sorcerer so far and I don't see what the issue is. IF you don't want to use the bloodlines abilities, DON USE THEM. In fact, if you want to still use the basic 3.5 sorcerer there's nothing stopping you.
You don't want the product fine, don't support the product. I dont support WOTC anymore, and I'm fairly certain that they dont give a crap. I get the feeling that the same would go here at Paizo. If you want the product GREAT, but don't try to threaten or ransom a change because you don't like something. Especially when it's easier to just OMIT the change from your personal game.
|
My thought to the OP is that the sorcerer has always, fluffwise, been based on bloodlines. If you go back and read through the flavor text in the 3.5 PHB, you will note many references to how sorcerers have the blood of dragons flowing through their veins, and so forth. All Pathfinder has done is added a mechanic to what has always been taken for granted in the fluff, that sorcerers are different from wizards in very fundamental ways. Otherwise he's just a mage that doesn't have to memorize spells.
WotC has stopped producing and distributing 3.5 books in June 2008. So while you could probably stick with 3.5 for now, eventually you won't be able to buy any books for it new or used. Except as they appear in EBay or something.
Fixed that for you...
Your decision on what's best, but it seems avoiding a game because of some flavor text, and not limiting yourself of Arcane bloodline, seems kind of silly on your part.
GP
Seriously.
I think we misunderstood the arguement all along. The issue of the bloodline for sorcerers was the symptom to the problem and not the problem itself. The problem seems to be any deviation from 3.5 is breaking the game in this person's view.
Like I already said, they can play 3.5 until time ends if that's the implied solution. However, not being able to buy new or replacement books is going to be their issue. Since WotC is not supporting d20 like its suppose to be. (If you go to WotC site and click on d20 link, it takes you to the GSL page).
If this person's problem is deviation issues, being able to find OGL material is going to be just as deviated while not being Pathfinder.
This person will have to live with current 3.5 material in their possession, or be forced to play another game or not game at all. I would agree with some of you that playing a different game woulld seem to be a solution. But since any game that is not 3.5 will be a different ruleset, there is no solution.
Either, be able to live with the Arcane bloodline, and remain a true sorcerer as per 3.5 and go with Pathfinder. Or go find a new hobby, because the publishing world is not going to be able to supply a better solution. Its all about licensing, Intellectual Property, not really a preference on gaming system. Live with it or without - no other decision.
GP
|
|
This person will have to live with current 3.5 material in their possession, or be forced to play another game or not game at all.
It should be noted that other 3rd parties are still publishing 3.5 compatible material (and when I say compatible, I mean 100% compatible). So there is another option if the OP is still looking to buy more books.
However it is also possible that the OP (and other gamers) out there were not necessarily that bothered about Pathfiner providing new 3.5 material, but about Pathfinder sustaining 3.5 play and thus sustaining the pool of 3.5 players.
I for example would quite happily continue playing 3.5 (and I will) but I am also going to get Pathfinder RPG so I can tap into that pool of players too (especially the PFS campaign).
I would have liked the rules to have been more compatible (and maybe they will be if rumours are true) so that I could have treated 3.5 and Pathfinder as the same game (and not have to learn the nuances of a new system). However, I am now willing to take the efforts to learn Pathfinder for the play opportunities (rather than the expanded material).
I think it's also worth checking up on the OP's previous posts. It gives you a sense of perspective. Just sayin'. :)
I looked at his recent posts, and they seemed like quite reasonable comments on the Alpha/Beta rules.
Like I said before, I think there are plenty of legitimate criticisms that can be made of the Beta rules. But I don't think there's anything particularly non-compatible about the changes to the sorcerer.
To the OP: I'm with you on hating bloodlines. They seem very blah/stupid to me, particularly as the basis for a *class*, as opposed to a race.
That said, I *LIKE* the mechanics, and find the class in general to be about 100% backwards compatible. Arcane and Destined bloodlines aren't really "blood"-lines for the most part and work great thematically. I'm not restricting anything to those, just ignoring the fluff on the rest.
Pacts work, or just the idea of using magic based on those powers (fey for instance) corrupting/empowering the sorcerer in specific ways.
Or I could just play a different game. We'll see if Paizo wants my money.
I fail to understand the logic of this implied threat. I'm not privy to any high level classified Paizo doctrine, but I somehow doubt that deep in the Paizo Cave, lit by the glow of surveillance monitors, there is someone yelling, "We're loosing LilithsThrall!! Rewrite, now dammit! Fire up the emergency printers."
Certainly, Paizo wants to please its customers. Certainly, they want to meet and excede the perceptions existing in the gaming community of what Pathinder needs to accomplish in order to forge 3.5 into a better game. However, it is impossible to make this game, a game so many people are passionate about and have such varied visions for, fit everyone’s exact whim and need. How could they possibly do so?
I'm going to come out with my own 3.5 backwards compatible game to please everyone. Its going to be 256 pages long and completely blank with the exception of the first page. In 11 point plain black font, so as not to offend anyone with the art direction I've chosen, will be written, " Make rules. Roll dice. Use imagination." I'm taking pre orders now.
and yes I know some will be offended because I wrote the word "rules" before scribbling "imagination" and a rabid war will rage over how I built a game that's too rules heavy, that forces imaginative role playing to be a minor tertiary goal....
|
Director of Games
|
Alright folks.. I think we have kicked this can enough for one thread. Plenty of folks have given the OP a number of ways to use the new sorcerer that work perfectly fine with the 3.5 concept. If his only response is change it to what I want or you don't get my money... that is his choice and I doubt we will get his money.
Lets all move along...
This thread is locked.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing