Grok 8
Dwarf Barbarian 10
CG Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +21
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 11, flat-footed 24 (+11 armor, +2 Dex, +4 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 120 (10d12+45)
Fort +13, Ref +7 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +13; +4 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities but must resist all spells, even allies', +1 trait bonus vs. divine spells, +2 vs. poison, +4 vs. spells and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training, improved uncanny dodge (lv >=14), trap sense; DR 2/—
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 Keen Greatsword +13/+8 (2d6+21/17-20/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Beast Totem, Lesser) +6 x2 (1d8+6/x3)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +5) +10/+5 (1d8+6/x3)
Special Attacks hatred, pounce, rage (29 rounds/day)
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +17; CMD 28 (28 vs. Bull Rush, 28 vs. Trip)
Feats Extra Rage Power, Furious Focus, Iron Will, Power Attack -3/+6, Steel Soul
Traits Classically Schooled, History of Heresy
Skills Acrobatics +4, Appraise +1 (+3 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Climb +10, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Handle Animal +3, Perception +21 (+23 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Ride +9, Spellcraft +15, Stealth -1, Survival +16, Swim +13
Languages Common, Dwarven, Goblin
SQ fast movement +10, greed, hardy, rage powers (beast totem +3 ac, beast totem, greater, beast totem, lesser, eater of magic [1/rage], roused anger, superstition +4), slow and steady, stability, stonecunning +2
Other Gear +2 Mithral Full plate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +5), +2 Keen Greatsword, Arrows (40), Cold Iron Arrows (50), Masterwork Silver Arrows (50), Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Eyes of the eagle, Handy haversack (1 @ 106.9 lbs), Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of protection +1, 5340 GP, 5 SP
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Special Abilities
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Beast Totem +3 AC (Su) +3 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su) Pounce ability and 1d8 claw damage while raging
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Eater of Magic (1/rage) (Su) Once per rage, when a barbarian fails a saving throw against a spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability, she can reroll the saving throw against the effect (this is not an action). If she succeeds at the second saving throw, she is not affe
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
History of Heresy +1 save vs, divine spells
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 14+.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (29 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Roused Anger (Ex) You can rage even when fatigued.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Superstition +4 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
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Grok 8
Dwarf Barbarian 10
CG Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +21
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 13, flat-footed 23 (+11 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 100 (10d12+25)
Fort +11, Ref +7 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +11; +4 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities while raging but must resist all spells, even allies', +1 trait bonus vs. divine spells, +2 vs. poison, +4 vs. spells and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training, improved uncanny dodge (lv >=14), trap sense; DR 2/—
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 Keen Greatsword +14/+9 (2d6+9/17-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +5) +10/+5 (1d8+6/x3)
Special Attacks hatred, rage (29 rounds/day)
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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +15; CMD 28 (28 vs. Bull Rush, 28 vs. Trip)
Feats Extra Rage Power, Furious Focus, Iron Will, Power Attack -3/+6, Steel Soul
Traits Classically Schooled, History of Heresy
Skills Acrobatics +4, Appraise +1 (+3 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Climb +8, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Handle Animal +3, Perception +21 (+23 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Ride +9, Spellcraft +15, Stealth -1, Survival +16, Swim +11
Languages Common, Dwarven, Goblin
SQ fast movement +10, greed, hardy, rage powers (beast totem +3 ac, beast totem, greater, beast totem, lesser, eater of magic [1/rage], roused anger, superstition +4), slow and steady, stability, stonecunning +2
Other Gear +2 Mithral Full plate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +5), +2 Keen Greatsword, Arrows (40), Cold Iron Arrows (50), Masterwork Silver Arrows (50), Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Eyes of the eagle, Handy haversack (1 @ 106.9 lbs), Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of protection +1, potion of fly(3), 4240 GP, 5 SP
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Special Abilities
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Beast Totem +3 AC (Su) +3 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su) Pounce ability and 1d8 claw damage while raging
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Eater of Magic (1/rage) (Su) Once per rage, when a barbarian fails a saving throw against a spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability, she can reroll the saving throw against the effect (this is not an action). If she succeeds at the second saving throw, she is not affected
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Indonitable Faith +1 trait bonus to will saves
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 14+.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (29 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Roused Anger (Ex) You can rage even when fatigued.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Superstition +4 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
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Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Errors from herolab
Superstition is not being added properly.
My raging saves should be higher, so between the Steel Soul feat and my trait that will have to be done manually.
The attack modifiers are also off for Power Attack is also off.
They are also incorrect when not power attacking.
Raging before power attack attack bonus
BAB 10
Str mod 7
weapon +2
19/14 greatsword, natural attacks +14
Power Attacking great sword +19/11 2d6+21, 2 claws +11 1d6(1d8 when charging) + 6
also +2 to attack when charging.
Pouncing DPR is 68.09 AC 23
No pounce equals 61.37 AC 25
I could drop AC and get a higher damage total which is about 70. My AC would drop by about 2.
Now for the saves. grrr.
Fort +11, Ref +7 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +11
The monk's save are matched except for reflex saves, but I have a lot of hit points so it's ok.
The Steel Soul feat gives a +4 vs spells and spell-like abilities. <---Always on
Raging alone gives a +2 to all will saves
and superstitious gives a +4 vs resist spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities.
AC is not too bad. Saves are not an issue. If I fail a save I just get to reroll it.
I could have gone with a more offensive barbarian, but if he lives to 13 that won't be an issue, not that it is now.
I also have perception +21, spellcraft(+15), and survival(+16).
4000+ gp allows me to buy a weapon blanches, and other items to bypass DR.
I also have a bow that I am not that good with, but I do have potions for flying.
Ciretose there are certain spells that almost all wizards/sorcs have. You stop it.
Have sure. Have active when they last minutes per level, not so much.
Unless you want to post a build alongside the one you are criticizing with "Every X would have X" I'm going to keep saying it.
Everyone is actually putting effort in, I'm not going to let assuming minutes per level spells are active or that you have certain spells at all times pass.
He can cast the spell once combat begins, but before someone is in his face. Most BBEGS have some buffs up before the PC's even engage him. I have had sneaky parties get the drop on a caster, but it is rare.
I actually have a wizard that I used in the other thread where I made the 13th level barbarian. It came from a PBP that never got going. That is how the barbarian and monk in that thread got haste.
And yes I had mirror image at the least prepped for that day.
5 (3/day) Wall of Stone (DC 23), Wall of Stone (DC 23), Summon Monster V, Telekinesis
4 (4/day) Black Tentacles, Wandering Star Motes (DC 21), Enervation, Summon Monster IV, Summon Monster IV
3 (5/day) Haste (DC 20), Haste (DC 20), Fireball (DC 20), Stinking Cloud (DC 21), Dispel Magic, Fly (DC 20)
2 (6/day) Glitterdust (DC 20), Glitterdust (DC 20), Darkvision (DC 19), Resist Energy (DC 19), Invisibility (DC 19), Mirror Image (DC 19), Rope Trick
1 (6/day) Enlarge Person (DC 18), Alarm, Protection from Evil (DC 18), Ray of Enfeeblement (DC 18), Grease (DC 19), Grease (DC 19), Expeditious Retreat (DC 18)
0 (at will) Light, Prestidigitation (DC 17), Read Magic (DC 17), Detect Magic
Now this is a PC wizard out adventuring, and not one on the defensive, and I did have displacement as a spell purchased.
edit:An NPC wizard can't afford all of those spells but I can go back to my other post in other threads to show my preference for certain spells.
Kimera that barbarian is actually level 10. I forgot to change the name.
Ok so by lvl 10 DD can port a wizard 800ft away.
A lvl 10 monk has a move of 60ft
120ft charge
240ft run or 300ft run with the run feat
By the time the caster ports out of the monks range the caster is outside the range needed for his close (50ft) and medium (200ft) spells.
Long range spells do not pack nearly the same punch as the closer range spells to the point that an archer would be more useful at that distance.
If as the monk you can make the enemy caster DD out of combat, you have done your job. The party is safer than it would have been.
What is the level 10 criteria for DPR calculations? AC/CMD/Etc.
Ok so by lvl 10 DD can port a wizard 800ft away.
A lvl 10 monk has a move of 60ft
120ft charge
240ft run or 300ft run with the run featBy the time the caster ports out of the monks range the caster is outside the range needed for his close (50ft) and medium (200ft) spells.
Long range spells do not pack nearly the same punch as the closer range spells to the point that an archer would be more useful at that distance.
If as the monk you can make the enemy caster DD out of combat, you have done your job. The party is safer than it would have been.
The caster can DD and still be within the range for medium spells. If he is outside he can hope the monk can't ignore difficult terrain on a charge. A monk running up to caster and not charging is preferable. I think better options than the Run feat can be chosen, since the caster can still cast defensively instead of playing keep away. If a caster goes 800 feat away he is probably trying to escape anyway. Yeah I know that counts as XP for the players if he does run away.
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I'll just leave that there...
Really though, no one said they are active all the time. People did say BBEGs usually have them up though. If I have a wizard BBEG I usually have some defensive spells up, because he gets smashed pretty quickly without it.
You call schrodinger a lot. Many times it is fair, but earlier in the thread you insinuated that there existed an arcane caster who does not have DD prepared.
At some point you have to except that...
...people will have hour/lvl buffs up
...prepared enemies will have 10min/lvl buffs up
...Druids are wildshaping and both them and their companions have greater magic fang on them
...prepared casters tend to prepare as many different spells as they have slots for the most part and use consumables should they need that spell again
What you don't have to except is that...
...people will have 1 round/lvl buffs on before combat
...people can cover weaknesses with money for OP classes, but UP classes can't use money
...enemies that are not laying in ambush have 1min/lvl buffs on
...casters have quicken spells prepared that take up their highest or second highest level slots.
I'll just leave that there...
Really though, no one said they are active all the time. People did say BBEGs usually have them up though. If I have a wizard BBEG I usually have some defensive spells up, because he gets smashed pretty quickly without it.
Why? Of course a wizard without spells is likely to be a little squishy. A fully buffed wizard on the other hand, is going to be quiet a bit more resilient. Mind you spells are his class feature. I said at the end of the post, this was about monks. Not wizards.
More on note, won't monks start losing more the further the game goes? The other martials (barbarian, fighter, ranger) have class features that have growing static modifiers, and the AoMF only does so much if he's unarmed.
What is the level 10 criteria for DPR calculations? AC/CMD/Etc.
This will vary by monster. The ones that hit hard normally have high DPR's.
At level 10 I would think Fire Giants and the Bebilith have the highest CMD's without checking. Elementals also have crazy CMD's, but I dont think there are any CR 10 Elementals.
The normal AC for a CR 10 monster is 24, but depending on what it is designed to do that can vary also.
Stealth and Perception checks should be looked at for ambushers.
The high save for a monster will normally have it with a +13 modifier, but its poor save is normally a +9
When they try to force you to make a save you normally need a +19, but some such as the Bebilith force saves into the 20's.
The caster can DD and still be within the range for medium spells. If he is outside he can hope the monk can't ignore difficult terrain on a charge. A monk running up to caster and not charging is preferable. I think better options than the Run feat can be chosen, since the caster can still cast defensively instead of playing keep away. If a caster goes 800 feat away he is probably trying to escape anyway. Yeah I know that counts as XP for the players if he does run away.Ok so by lvl 10 DD can port a wizard 800ft away.
A lvl 10 monk has a move of 60ft
120ft charge
240ft run or 300ft run with the run featBy the time the caster ports out of the monks range the caster is outside the range needed for his close (50ft) and medium (200ft) spells.
Long range spells do not pack nearly the same punch as the closer range spells to the point that an archer would be more useful at that distance.
If as the monk you can make the enemy caster DD out of combat, you have done your job. The party is safer than it would have been.
If he is in medium range the monk is right next to him after his turn is up. Difficult terrain means nothing to monk when he can just do a series of jumps through it.
You can't outrun the monk.
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I'm going to take a swing at the 22 AC 88 DPR goal by making some swaps.
Still swapping out slowfall for barkskin, but that isn't really important.
So I was at 24, I'm selling my bracers +3 for bracers +1 to get 8k back. Down to 22. Then I'm selling my cloak of resistance, since I have all good saves.
What am I buying with that 12K?
Boots of Speed.
So 10 round a day (same number of ki points I have left after I burn one for barkskin) I have haste as a free action.
So for 10 rounds a day I can get a +1 to attack and another attack. So with Ki it will be +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13 for 2d6+8 damage (15) regular or +16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11 Power attack for 2d6 +14 damage (21)
Yes, only 10 rounds a day. But 10 is a lot of rounds. DPR is (if my math is correct)
Reg: 66
PA :78.54
So close...yes only 10 rounds a day, but still so close. And considering for 100 minutes a day the AC can be up at 26 (plus high touch AC) I feel good.
I still have spring attack, I still have stun 10 times a day at between 20% and 30% success (with damage occurring regardless on a hit) and all the other monk stuff.
Better than I thought.
More on note, won't monks start losing more the further the game goes? The other martials (barbarian, fighter, ranger) have class features that have growing static modifiers, and the AoMF only does so much if he's unarmed.
That has been my experience, and in a game where the best 3rd level spell is in play the other martials tend to do more damage on a single attack so they will only catch up more.
Of course not everyone uses haste, but in such a group an optimized monk is not likely to be seen either.
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88.05 DPR is not what I have.I have 54.69
Burning your ki point is another18.59
Removing the KI feature from the class?
Not part of the original assumption.Burning the KI point is:
(27*.65)+(23.5*.65*.1) = 19.305 DPR
I am assuming those dragon feats stack That is another 1.5ish
No stacking. I simply applied 1.5 strength to all unarmed attacks instead of just the first attack.
Desperate Battler is a +1 when no allies are within 10 feet of you so that is another 5 points of DPR
Nothing in the original assumptions included an ally standing within 10'
Quite the opposite: the assumption to date has been no allies available to help with buffs.Every time I add power attack it works against you.
I ran a lot of numbers. With and without power attack. With and without monk's robes & +1 AoMF vs a +2 AoMF
The numbers I ran without power attack are:
3((23*.8)+(19.5*.8*.1))+2((23*.55)+(19.5*.55*.1)) = 87.74
Marginally lower. If I had something else available to contributed to the numbers I would not take power attack. A character I actually intended to play would not take power attack at this level.
Not bad IMHO.
edit:I did not expect to see 80. I just threw a high number at you to make sure you came back with high numbers. Well done.
Thank you.
The numbers your threw out were right at the limit of what I could push on all fronts, with the restrictions in place. It was a very challenging test of system mastery.
Quinggong + Weapon frees up significant options.
I would still like to see a fighter, barbarian and rangers significantly exceed my monk build using the above criteria.
I don't have to come out ahead to win my argument, just be competitive.
Monk? More HP than the Wizard?
D8 Vs D6 is only 1 HP per level.
while you can dump Cha and Maybe Int, you have to Pump Str Dex Con and Wis to be effective. but you personally said you neglect Str and Con in favor of Dex/Wis
Wizard, can afford to neglect Str/Wis/Cha without hindering his primary functions, while maxing out Wis and having a passable Dex and a lot More Con than your monk who didn't pump Con. 2 more Con gives the wizard Equal HP to your monk, 4 More or even 6 More con, depending on the resources the wizard invests...
6 more Con on the wizard is hyperbole. That assumes that a monk PC only has a 10 Con which is highly problematic. I get that monks are MAD, but so are any melee 3/4 BAB with a casting attribute. I also don't think your average wizard is going to dump all their mental stats (save Int) so they can have something like an 18 Con/18 Int. They need Dex, Cha, and Wis if they want to not be hit by touch attacks, be able to work charm spells, and fend off enemy enchantments (high Will save is good, but with WIs its better).
Can you make wizard with more HP than anyone but a fighter? sure. But that is a specific combat build that loses out in a lot of other areas.
but the guy i was talking to, posted a monk with only 10 Con, which is why i said 6 more. and of course, that is after items. but otherwise, yes it would be hyperbole.
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Ok so by lvl 10 DD can port a wizard 800ft away.
A lvl 10 monk has a move of 60ft
120ft charge
240ft run or 300ft run with the run featBy the time the caster ports out of the monks range the caster is outside the range needed for his close (50ft) and medium (200ft) spells.
Long range spells do not pack nearly the same punch as the closer range spells to the point that an archer would be more useful at that distance.
If as the monk you can make the enemy caster DD out of combat, you have done your job. The party is safer than it would have been.
I agree a monk can really motor, but if the wizard is smart, they'll teleport up a hill or behind difficult terrain. (At which point the monk starts making Stealth checks...)
Kimera that barbarian is actually level 10. I forgot to change the name.Okay, fixed it. (The edit button returned. This is a really inconsistent computer problem.)
+1 per 10 Feet applies to what skill check?
So spotting (and targeting) someone 800 ft away requires what?
Dear god this thread has grown...
I've participated in these threads over and over and tried (though I'll admit boorishly and failing) to defend monks.
And every single time you've been shot down and picked apart. You should give consideration to the thought that we are not blind haters, out to destroy your fun but are in fact monk LOVERS who have legitimate points about the monk's lack of both specialisation and versatility.
What change(s) can anyone make to build them up? Put a solution to all these problems.
My suggestions. Anyone, please feel free to critique and make suggestions.
Oh, and as for solutions, the general consensus is that some archetypes are playable, I'll go with that - why play a 'standard' monk when you can play a Quiggong Monk?
Qingong is an improvement over a lot of minor monk issues. Unfortunately the main ones of MAD, poor enhancement, 2nd rate weaponry, being locked into the worst combat style, and inability to bypass DR (all when they are meant to be a combat class) combine to leave the monk functioning badly in serious fights, and the Qingong doesn't fix this.
The monk is a ridiculously good mage tank. Their saves and class features are basically an F-you to spell casters. Their movement speed is an F-you to DDing casters. And even though grapple is generally bad, a monk will rip a caster to pieces with it.
If he can reach him. The problem is, ANY combat class can rip a mage to pieces if he gets next to them. Generally the mage will place himself somewhere this can't happen (after all, he's a super-genius), and if he can avoid people actually seeing him at all.
Paladins may have good says, but they don't have an evasion, immunity to poison and disease (paladins only have disease), SR, and an extra bonus to will saves against enchantments.
Actually they gain immunity to enchantments and fear, and give their comrades a bonus on saves against these forms of attack. They don't have good saves, they have the best saves. As for SR, that is more effective at blocking in-combat buffs and heals than stopping enemy spells. How many classes have abilities that nerf them, or require a feat-tax to work properly? Just one, the monk.
If you wanna kill stuff with fist as good as a fighter, you have to be a fighter. The problem with the "monk is UP" crowd is that they want to kick ass as good as a fighter and then having on top all the other stuffs of the monk. Call that balance...
Hey, try reading one of these threads some time, instead of just skimming it and issuing your judgements. They might surprise you when you discover that no, we don't want to out-DPR the fighter, or any such crap. What we want is for the monk to be able to function in it's assigned role, and that requires it's unarmed attacks be more effective in some way which doesn't cripple the monk's defences. Or if that isn't done, give the monk the resources to perform a different role that doesn't involve getting into combat so often.
If you read the thread, you will find our complaints basically come down to the fact that aside from the 120' dash, the monk is palpably worse at any role it tries to fulfil than {insert class here} which can usually do a lot of other stuff besides. To cap it off many of their abilities work against one another in a way that reduces their effectiveness, so the monk isn't generally (with the exception of mobility) very good at doing what they do.
What type of data are you asking for?
edit:This has been an issue in AP's run by myself and others so it is not just a home campaign problem.
Ditto. Ran a monk through CotCT that ran into serious problems, and ended up effectively a spectator in most boss fights. Running CC for two groups, had a player quit running a monk in one group because it sucked, had to beef up the monk in the second with my own changes to bring it up to speed.
Not bad IMHO.
edit:I did not expect to see 80. I just threw a high number at you to make sure you came back with high numbers. Well done.
I have to agree, I was impressed even with the minor errors. However, the AC is awful. He has mage armour and ki to spend, but he won't be able to spend that ki on both defence AND offence, and that cuts down his DPR considerably or limits AC to 26 (with potion), which is poor for level 10. So far, what has been said holds true: the monk that achieves DPR loses out badly in AC.
I'd like to compare his DPR with your Barbarian's against actual foe's AC & DR. My experience of the monk in play was that his weakness got disproportionally great against higher-AC opponents, and DR stopped him dead.
You can't outrun the monk.
Levitate
88.05 DPR is not what I have.I have 54.69
Burning your ki point is another18.59Removing the KI feature from the class?
Not part of the original assumption.Burning the KI point is:
(27*.65)+(23.5*.65*.1) = 19.305 DPRI am assuming those dragon feats stack That is another 1.5ishNo stacking. I simply applied 1.5 strength to all unarmed attacks instead of just the first attack.
Desperate Battler is a +1 when no allies are within 10 feet of you so that is another 5 points of DPRNothing in the original assumptions included an ally standing within 10'
Quite the opposite: the assumption to date has been no allies available to help with buffs.Every time I add power attack it works against you.I ran a lot of numbers. With and without power attack. With and without monk's robes & +1 AoMF vs a +2 AoMF
The numbers I ran without power attack are:
3((23*.8)+(19.5*.8*.1))+2((23*.55)+(19.5*.55*.1)) = 87.74
Marginally lower. If I had something else available to contributed to the numbers I would not take power attack. A character I actually intended to play would not take power attack at this level.
Not bad IMHO.
edit:I did not expect to see 80. I just threw a high number at you to make sure you came back with high numbers. Well done.
Thank you.
The numbers your threw out were right at the limit of what I could push on all fronts, with the restrictions in place. It was a very challenging test of system mastery.
Quinggong + Weapon frees up significant options.
I would still like to see a fighter, barbarian and rangers significantly exceed my monk build using the above criteria.
I don't have to come out ahead to win my argument, just be competitive.
I did not even see your monk robes, and I was not trying to remove ki from the class. :)
They appear to be close enough for it to not matter in a real game. The only outlier is the barbarian's saves, but I do think you have made a strong case.
I think a ranger can reached in the 100+ range for damage with a similar AC, with his favored enemy in play, but the saves won't be as good.
The fighter can probably should be able to push 65 to 70. The AC should at least hit 25, but he wont have the perception or other abilities the ranger or barbarian bring to the table.
I will try to get a ranger build up within the next 24 hours.
I tried to find the page listing what books we were allowed to use so I dont use something I should not have. Once I find it or someone repost it, I will decide which direction to go.
The caster can DD and still be within the range for medium spells. If he is outside he can hope the monk can't ignore difficult terrain on a charge. A monk running up to caster and not charging is preferable. I think better options than the Run feat can be chosen, since the caster can still cast defensively instead of playing keep away. If a caster goes 800 feat away he is probably trying to escape anyway. Yeah I know that counts as XP for the players if he does run away.Ok so by lvl 10 DD can port a wizard 800ft away.
A lvl 10 monk has a move of 60ft
120ft charge
240ft run or 300ft run with the run featBy the time the caster ports out of the monks range the caster is outside the range needed for his close (50ft) and medium (200ft) spells.
Long range spells do not pack nearly the same punch as the closer range spells to the point that an archer would be more useful at that distance.
If as the monk you can make the enemy caster DD out of combat, you have done your job. The party is safer than it would have been.
If he is in medium range the monk is right next to him after his turn is up. Difficult terrain means nothing to monk when he can just do a series of jumps through it.
You can't outrun the monk.
That is ok. Once the caster realizes how fast the monk he is does something else. What that is depends on the build however. Well the monk did make the caster waste a round, so that is not such a bad thing.
Better than the person not posting any build at all...
builds show nothing of a classes merits
all they show is the following
- how good you are at crunching numbers
- how much familiarity you have with splatbooks
- how good you are at parroting top tier builds
- how good you are at covering weaknesses
- how much you know about little known rules
- how much free time you possess for researching said builds
- and how good you are at maximizing the numbers you crunch
i never post a build personally, but i do make recommendations to help other peoples builds.
and i do know that a 42 point monk with 10 constitution, is not a viable tank. such a monk, is dependant on his 42 point buy. and thus shouldn't be considered a serious character.
plus, i tend to play in high risk campaigns in parties of 12-15 PCs before cohorts and pets with 25 point allotments (cohorts are treated as PCs for the purpose of wealth, trait, and point allotment) and semi open access to 3rd party PF Material, WotC 3.0/3.5 material and custom items, which drastically skews my ability to build.
so i do not post proper pathfinder builds, because i lack the ability to do so without accidentally mixing in 3.5 content.
yes, the campaigns tend to be low on wealth, but we function because we have a raiding crew of 25-30 members easily and fight such things as armies, warbands, mercenary companies and the like. usually our 25-30 members have to fight off groups of 60-75+ similarly leveled and geared NPCs.
I have the tiger at 22.1 when it just stands and full attacks.
PA moves it up to 25.57
If you charge with no power attack you get 35.91
If you charge and power attack you get 43.0
Most monks will come up with around 43ish at level 10 before ki points and other feats come into play.
I'm not that great with DPR, so thanks for crunching for me. I'm curious. How do you factor in the chances of a successful grab to grapple and the subsequent rakes?
Did you factor the rakes in on the charges?
Yes I did factor in the rakes. :)
Edit: I did not account for grapple and grab because unlike AC CMD for a certain CR's seems to be less consistent.
Just for fun, I statted up a Druid level 10 animal companion Big Cat (Tiger). I think he does equally as well as most of the non-archetype monks posted. And that isn't even counting the possible druid buffs, or even the druid character. Would one of the numbers guys (ciretose, wraith) check the DPS/whatnot of this guy? Could also split skills between acrobatics and survival, but I figured I'd focus on his ability to scent things out.
** spoiler omitted **...
I have the tiger at 22.1 when it just stands and full attacks.
PA moves it up to 25.57
If you charge with no power attack you get 35.91
If you charge and power attack you get 43.0
I'm trying to duplicate this, and not quite getting the same numbers as you.
Standing and full-attack I get 21.02625 without factoring in grab/rakes.
PA moves it to 16.35375.
Plain charge is: 32.05125
With PA on the charge: 34.72875
What am I missing?
Here is my google doc sheet I am running numbers in:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsrIlKyeE8cedGJ4TG9DZ0gyT0c4eT RoSGJjMFJfWWc&usp=sharing
Human Ranger 10
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +13, Will +7
AC: 25 (+9 Armor, +5 Dex, +1 Deflection)
Str: 18
Dex: 20
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
Feats:
1.) Two-Weapon Fighting
1.) Weapon Focus: Kukri
2.) Double Slice
3.) Endurance
3.) Weapon Finesse
5.) Iron Will
6.) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7.) Power Attack
9.) Improved Critical (Kukri)
10.) Two-Weapon Rend
Melee: Kukri +18/+13 (1d4+7, 15-20/x2)
OR
Kukri +16/+16/+11/+11 (1d4+7, 15-20/x2), Rend (1d10+4)
Special Abilities: Favored Enemy (+6/+4/+2), Track, Evasion, Favored Terrain (+4/+2), Hunter's Bond, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker
Equipment: Belt of Physical Might +2 (Str and Dex, 10k), +3 Mithral Breastplate (13k), 2 +3 Kukris (36k total), Cloak of Resistance +1 (1k), +1 Ring of Protection
Not sure how good this is. To-hit/Damage does not include Power Attack or Favored Enemy bonuses/penalties.
I thought about doing one with something like 20+ Str and 16 Dex instead but wanted to keep it simple since I didn't want to take more than 15 minutes or so putting this together and that has some logistical difference I'd need to work out.
I figured a guaranteed 1d10+4 damage if two attacks hit would be better than another attack at a much lower bonus but correct me if I'm wrong.
I have no clue what the DPR formula is so I dunno what this guy's numbers are. Next level he'd snag a Headband of Wisdom for saves and casting. Something else I didn't include actually.
That is ok. Once the caster realizes how fast the monk he is does something else. What that is depends on the build however. Well the monk did make the caster waste a round, so that is not such a bad thing.The caster can DD and still be within the range for medium spells. If he is outside he can hope the monk can't ignore difficult terrain on a charge. A monk running up to caster and not charging is preferable. I think better options than the Run feat can be chosen, since the caster can still cast defensively instead of playing keep away. If a caster goes 800 feat away he is probably trying to escape anyway. Yeah I know that counts as XP for the players if he does run away.Ok so by lvl 10 DD can port a wizard 800ft away.
A lvl 10 monk has a move of 60ft
120ft charge
240ft run or 300ft run with the run featBy the time the caster ports out of the monks range the caster is outside the range needed for his close (50ft) and medium (200ft) spells.
Long range spells do not pack nearly the same punch as the closer range spells to the point that an archer would be more useful at that distance.
If as the monk you can make the enemy caster DD out of combat, you have done your job. The party is safer than it would have been.
If he is in medium range the monk is right next to him after his turn is up. Difficult terrain means nothing to monk when he can just do a series of jumps through it.
You can't outrun the monk.
Except he can't ignore the monk without dying...
If he is anywhere near the party the monk can get him.The caster is locked down for the entire combat until someone else gets the monk.
The monk just shut down the caster. No fighter build comes close to being able to do that.
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yes, the campaigns tend to be low on wealth, but we function because we have a raiding crew of 25-30 members easily and fight such things as armies, warbands, mercenary companies and the like. usually our 25-30 members have to fight off groups of 60-75+ similarly leveled and geared NPCs.
Why are you even bothering with Pathdinder/3.x??? There are several wargaming systems that would be much better for that style of play.
The size of those battles on the 3.x engine seems like it would take forever to run and be light on story and individual accomplishments since everyone is running 5-6 characters.
If you are having fun, great but I would want no part of that table.
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I did not even see your monk robes, and I was not trying to remove ki from the class. :)I'm not using monk robes. They are a trap at this level, lowering DPR significantly as opposed to using available wbl to upgrade the AoMF.
They are a tough call to make, I agree, but it is +1 AC, +2ish Damage with one extra stunning fist.
Boots of haste are probably a better way to go with the 13k if you can't afford both, as 6 attacks in a round 10 times a day (along with a +1 on those attacks) is pretty sweet.
I think barkskin for the Quiggong was a game-changer for the class. Quiggong in general, actually. I'm pleasantly surprised how much we are squeezing out of the unarmed. The gap may not have been as much as I thought.
It is amazing what happens when you test your assumptions rather than just try to find ways to prove them...
EDIT: And no one has even mentioned enlarge person :)
yes, the campaigns tend to be low on wealth, but we function because we have a raiding crew of 25-30 members easily and fight such things as armies, warbands, mercenary companies and the like. usually our 25-30 members have to fight off groups of 60-75+ similarly leveled and geared NPCs.
Why are you even bothering with Pathdinder/3.x??? There are several wargaming systems that would be much better for that style of play.
The size of those battles on the 3.x engine seems like it would take forever to run and be light on story and individual accomplishments since everyone is running 5-6 characters.
If you are having fun, great but I would want no part of that table.
no, we have 12-15 Players, each with a cohort and many with a pet of some kind.
Combat literally takes 4 hours per combat encounter, then we spend 2 hours roleplaying whatever or doing whatever errands.
the problem is, it is easier to acquire pathfinder books and adjust pathfinder/3.5 encounters for accommodating this massive strike team than it is to play a new system.
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Only statements without evidence are useful in these discussions...
No need to be so hateful. Someone was just explaining builds have problems. That's not saying "Evidence is useless!" or "Don't back your statements!".
I'd like to compare his DPR with your Barbarian's against actual foe's AC & DR. My experience of the monk in play was that his weakness got disproportionally great against higher-AC opponents, and DR stopped him dead.
My numbers were off.
Full Attack with pounce is 55.86
No pounce 48.61
I could have taken the boots of speed. I would have to drop my saves by 2, not that it matters and drop my AC by another 2.
That push me back to 84.42 for a pounce and 77.17 without pounce.
Yeah that limits me to about 10 rounds of this, but if a fight consist of fighting lower CR creatures the boots can stay off.
When fighting bigger threats they come on, and the barbarian should be able to deal with DR, not to mention the fact that I have items to bypass DR.
I think the key would be between how long the monk can withstand being assaulted if he uses the ki point for offense instead of defense.
PF wasn't intended for a group of 12-15 players, even with cohorts. but we can literally pass along a lot of group buffs for our 70+ percent martial strike time.
in fact, some of us suggested mass combat rules based off the skull and shackles fleet battle rules to speed things up.
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Only statements without evidence are useful in these discussions...No need to be so hateful. Someone was just explaining builds have problems. That's not saying "Evidence is useless!" or "Don't back your statements!".
"builds show nothing of a classes merit."
Direct quote. First line.
Both of you can feel free to leave and let the rest of us to work if you don't care for the discussion.
Only statements without evidence are useful in these discussions...No need to be so hateful. Someone was just explaining builds have problems. That's not saying "Evidence is useless!" or "Don't back your statements!"."builds show nothing of a classes merit."
Direct quote. First line.
Both of you can feel free to leave and let the rest of us to work if you don't care for the discussion.
they merely show how skilled the builder is at character creation.
that isn't the merits of the class itself, but the merits of the builder constructing the character.
Edit; a skilled builder can take the weakest of classes and make it look far stronger than a much weaker builder can tweak the weakest class.
Edit; "it's not about what comes innately under the hood, it's about what customizations you make, and how well you can drive the car." ~ Homage to Fast and the Furious
Only statements without evidence are useful in these discussions...No need to be so hateful. Someone was just explaining builds have problems. That's not saying "Evidence is useless!" or "Don't back your statements!"."builds show nothing of a classes merit."
Direct quote. First line.
Both of you can feel free to leave and let the rest of us to work if you don't care for the discussion.
they merely show how skilled the builder is at character creation.
that isn't the merits of the class itself, but the merits of the builder constructing the character.
If two classes are built with the same level of expertise at building a character, does that not demonstrate the differences between what the classes are capable of?
Its kind of like a wood door vs a metal door. Sure, if someone is a master wood door maker, that wood door will be beautiful, and close easily, and everything about it will be perfect. Especially when compared to a badly made metal door. But, when compared to metal door, the contrast between the two highlights the differences like weight or strength. (Or in the monks case, better saves).
Only statements without evidence are useful in these discussions...No need to be so hateful. Someone was just explaining builds have problems. That's not saying "Evidence is useless!" or "Don't back your statements!"."builds show nothing of a classes merit."
Direct quote. First line.
Both of you can feel free to leave and let the rest of us to work if you don't care for the discussion.
Its a different statement than either of my examples.
Builds don't show a classes merits very well. Sometimes they show a feats. They show a trait or race. They aren't entirely dependent on a class's features. This is why people get bothered when people say "Don't dump int and play a human if you want to play a smart fighter!" or "play a dwarf if you want good saves!" it doesn't excuse the class having problems in those areas. It shows the power of the race. Its all about the person building it because its dependent on their knowledge and feelings. It shows that you can build a class to do something, but it doesn't show that a class in its core is capable.
I think its easier to talk about core problems if you discuss their class features, possible fixes, and how they compare to others expected to do the same job.
I feel like monk comes under in that case. Forced into two weapon fighting. Not so good static modifiers. He has quiet a few bonuses that are situational, and none that really help out of combat. People jump on archetypes to throw away the less useful class features to get nifty ones.
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they merely show how skilled the builder is at character creation.
that isn't the merits of the class itself, but the merits of the builder constructing the character.
In case you haven't noticed, we are discussing the builds, making replacements, etc...
This isn't an athletic event. "Skill" is irrelevant. The numbers don't change if I practice really hard every day. You look in the books and find things that you plug into the available slots.
If someone else finds something better, they make suggestions.
The build I am currently using, I didn't build. I took someone else's chassis and made changes.
Which is the entire point.
This isn't the normal useless abstract discussion. This is a testing ground to see if what we think can be shown to be incorrect.
Unlike most threads which are all about showing how big your e-peen is.
I am quite impressed with how engaged all sides are in challenging the preconceptions they brought to the table.
For the most part...
If two classes are built with the same level of expertise at building a character, does that not demonstrate the differences between what the classes are capable of?
Sort of, but are we measuring what all the builders are capable of? I can build a good uber charger in 3.5. Leap attack + Whirling frenzy lion totem barbarian is killer. I can even make him more than a one trick pony if I really wanted to. Most of my friends I played 3.5 with would have no idea what I'm talking about.
Not all builds are equal either, some radically change the class(same with archetypes). Have you read the article on tiers? I think it explains it far better than I can. Its very unlikely that we're comparing the class on even grounds.
And again, both of you can feel free to leave for the greener pastures of not actually testing any assumptions, but just preaching to the choir. Lord knows there is no shortage of threads that have that.
That way the rest of us can continue having a productive discussion.
The thread is not "Ciretose's way or the high way" and no one said "Don't test anything!"
Just because someone isn't doing it your way doesn't mean they aren't productive. Seriously, where do you get off saying things like that?
they merely show how skilled the builder is at character creation.
that isn't the merits of the class itself, but the merits of the builder constructing the character.
In case you haven't noticed, we are discussing the builds, making replacements, etc...
This isn't an athletic event. "Skill" is irrelevant. The numbers don't change if I practice really hard every day. You look in the books and find things that you plug into the available slots.
If someone else finds something better, they make suggestions.
The build I am currently using, I didn't build. I took someone else's chassis and made changes.
Which is the entire point.
This isn't the normal useless abstract discussion. This is a testing ground to see if what we think can be shown to be incorrect.
Unlike most threads which are all about showing how big your e-peen is.
I am quite impressed with how engaged all sides are in challenging the preconceptions they brought to the table.
For the most part...
Skill applies to more than just athletic events
by spending time pouring through sourcebooks and crunching numbers, you are improving your skill at making builds by seperating good options from their trap counterparts.
this can be seen as a form of mental skill
so even if your character doesn't immediately change
you know how to build better characters in the future. because your skill at character building has improved, as has your skill at planning and thinking ahead.
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Better than the person not posting any build at all...builds show nothing of a classes merits
all they show is the following
- how good you are at crunching numbers
- how much familiarity you have with splatbooks
- how good you are at parroting top tier builds
- how good you are at covering weaknesses
- how much you know about little known rules
- how much free time you possess for researching said builds
- and how good you are at maximizing the numbers you crunch
Most of this boils down to one thing: System Mastery.
My initial position was that monks were viable but required significant system mastery to use effectively. I stand by that position.
As for parroting top tier builds? I parrot nothing. I sat up half the night testing alternatives, running numbers and challenging my own assumptions. It is the type of exercise I enjoy. Call it a hobby.
I don't know if a Dex build is possible to meet the goalposts, but I also don't know if that is an actual problem of the class or just something that doesn't meet specific expectations that may or may not need to be met.
I've experimented a bit, and I think a dex-built monk can actually be very competitive:
Two variants of the monk are considered, the distinction being whether an agile amulet of mighty fists is used, or not. AC is very high, especially considering that this is a no-archetype monk, so a +4 natural armor bonus from qinggong is not even included. Saves suffer a bit, especially Fort, but that is also the save where the monk has(or will have) immunity to poison and disease.
I've tried to keep in the "spirit" of a dex-build, i.e. I didn't make a high-dex monk that still used strength, power attack and Tiger (or Dragon) to build its damage. Instead accuracy and speed of attacks (via Mantis Wisdom and Medusa's Wrath) were the most important considerations.
str 10
dex 24 = 16 + 2 racial + 2 levels + 4 item
con 12
int 10
wis 18 = 16 + 2 item
cha 8
traits - bullied (+1 trait bonus to unarmed attacks for AOOs), mikari rebel (+1 trait bonus to damage for unarmed strikes)
level 1 - weapon finesse, dodge (bonus), toughness (human)
level 2 - deflect arrows (bonus)
level 3 - mantis style
level 4 -
level 5 - weapon focus (unarmed)
level 6 - combat reflexes (bonus)
level 7 - mantis wisdom
level 8 -
level 9 - great fortitude
level 10 - medusa's wrath (bonus)
equipment: dex +4 (16000), amulet +2 (16000), monk robe (13000), deliquescent gloves (8000), ring +1 (2000), wis +2 (4000), potions of mage armor (2000)
HP 83
AC 30 touch 26 flat 22
Fort 10 Ref 14 Will 11
unarmed flurry +2 amulet 18/18/13/13 2d6+3+1d6(acid)
unarmed flurry +1 agile amulet 17/17/12/12 2d6+10+1d6(acid)
basic: 13.5 * 1.05 * (2 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) = 35.44
ki attack: 13.5 * 1.05 * (3 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) = 46.07
haste ki attack: 13.5 * 1.05 * (4 * 0.8 + 2 * 0.55) = 60.95
basic: 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.65 * (0.85 + 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.35 * (0.85 + 3 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.7) = 49.23
ki attack: 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.65 * (0.85 + 2 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.35 * (0.85 + 4 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.7) = 60.88
haste ki attack: 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.65 * (0.9 + 3 * 0.8 + 2 * 0.55) + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.35 * (0.9 + 5 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.75) = 76.01
basic: 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.45 * (0.85 + 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.55 * (0.85 + 3 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.7) = 56.35
ki attack: 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.45 * (0.85 + 2 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.55 * (0.85 + 4 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.7) = 68.54
haste ki attack: 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.45 * (0.9 + 3 * 0.8 + 2 * 0.55) + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.55 * (0.9 + 5 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.75) = 83.81
basic: 20.5 * 1.05 * (2 * 0.7 + 2 * 0.45) = 49.51
ki attack: 20.5 * 1.05 * (3 * 0.7 + 2 * 0.45) = 64.58
haste ki attack: 20.5 * 1.05 * (4 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) = 86.1
basic: 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.65 * (0.8 + 0.7 + 2 * 0.45) + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.35 * (0.8 + 3 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65) = 69.741
ki attack: 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.65 * (0.8 + 2 * 0.7 + 2 * 0.45) + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.35 * (0.8 + 4 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65) = 86.32
haste ki attack: 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.65 * (0.85 + 3 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.35 * (0.85 + 5 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.7) = 110.10
basic: 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.45 * (0.8 + 0.7 + 2 * 0.45) + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.55 * (0.8 + 3 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65) = 80.073
ki attack: 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.45 * (0.8 + 2 * 0.7 + 2 * 0.45) + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.55 * (0.8 + 4 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65) = 97.51
haste ki attack: 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.45 * (0.85 + 3 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.55 * (0.85 + 5 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.7) = 122.58
My initial position was that monks were viable but required significant system mastery to use effectively. I stand by that position.
If monks were effective, they wouldn't need significant system mastery. Splats don't fix the class. Archetypes don't fix the class. The fact you need this sort of thing only helps prove the point. They help the class, don't get me wrong, but it didn't mean there was nothing wrong with the class. It requires someone going out of their way to find something to fix it.
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by spending time pouring through sourcebooks and crunching numbers, you are improving your skill at making builds by seperating good options from their trap counterparts.
Collectively we are doing research. This is a closed system with a finite number of resources that can be plugged into an equation. That equation is a build, and it has a finite number of variables and options that anyone who is playing has equal access to.
If collectively we achieve a level of system mastery that shows that it is possible, it isn't like some unskilled person can't come to the thread and copy the build because they lack the skill to...uh...write things.
Lebron James has a skill that I can not replicate.
Nothing here can't be replicated by anyone. There is no "skill" involved, just time and effort.