I got an e-mail from Paizo (specifically Erik Mona) telling me that I have received a free preview of the Legacy of Fire Players Guide.
I downloaded it.. absolutely sweet, and chock full of cool stuff.. Like players traits.. and a kick a$$ idea (inspired by the MMO's I wonder).. achievements! Who says you can't squeeze some new ideas out of 3.5! Let alone Pathfinder RPG!
Anyway, its been a while since I've posted or been at chat.. But I'm still a loyal Paizoan, and wanted to express my appreciation for this preview. I look forward to remaining a Pathfinder superscriber in this very exciting year to come!
Creative Director
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The idea for achievement feats was partially inspired by Xbox, partially by Warcraft. I enjoy the satisfaction of seeing an achievement pop up on a screen while I'm playing; it's proof that I'm accomplishing something and it appeals to the collector mentality. When writing the achievement feats for the player's guide, I was naturally worried that folks would hate them since they're so obviously inspired by video games.
ASIDE: It's weird to me that gamers, as a whole, seem not to care if tabletop RPGs take inspiration from novels, short stories, poetry, movies, music, or comics... but once you draw inspiration from video games (arguably today's MOST successful medium for delivering entertainment, now that Halo 3 and Grand Theft Auto IV have put opening day totals for the most successful movies to shame)... suddenly you've done something reprehensible. Is weird, I says.
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The idea for achievement feats was partially inspired by Xbox, partially by Warcraft. I enjoy the satisfaction of seeing an achievement pop up on a screen while I'm playing; it's proof that I'm accomplishing something and it appeals to the collector mentality. When writing the achievement feats for the player's guide, I was naturally worried that folks would hate them since they're so obviously inspired by video games.
Going to have to add me to the hate camp looking at them just makes me cringe and they do seem kind of metagamy to me but to each there own.
I hope I don't seem rude but I would be very happy not to see anything like them again.
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As long as the "achievement" prerequisite is reasonably related to the bonus the feat grants, I (personally) don't care if they were inspired by video games, novels, movies, or whatever. It makes sense to me somebody could improve their ability at a particular task (such as hunting gnolls or healing) by practicing that task.
Frankly, I don't know why nobody did something like this before now...
A bit off of original topic, but wasn't the rest of Paizo involved in setting up that massive e-mail as well as the preview PDF ?
My thanks to The PostMonster General - who had posts indicating some REALLY EARLY hours to get that beast rolling - and ALL of the Paizo staff, on these boards or otherwise, for rolling this out.
I do look forward to that nice big box when #20 comes around, mwahahhah!! ^_^
The idea for achievement feats was partially inspired by Xbox, partially by Warcraft. I enjoy the satisfaction of seeing an achievement pop up on a screen while I'm playing; it's proof that I'm accomplishing something and it appeals to the collector mentality. When writing the achievement feats for the player's guide, I was naturally worried that folks would hate them since they're so obviously inspired by video games.
ASIDE: It's weird to me that gamers, as a whole, seem not to care if tabletop RPGs take inspiration from novels, short stories, poetry, movies, music, or comics... but once you draw inspiration from video games (arguably today's MOST successful medium for delivering entertainment, now that Halo 3 and Grand Theft Auto IV have put opening day totals for the most successful movies to shame)... suddenly you've done something reprehensible. Is weird, I says.
Having lived through Gamers vs Magic Players (admittedly I was in the Gamer camp here - kept having to shoo those Magic Players out of reserved rooms at Strategicon when I worked it), Gamers vs Larpers, One type of Fen vs Furry Fen, etc., this is just one of the next generation of Us vs Them things, James :)
I admit I blinked at in surprise, but I do like it as something the players can track, if they wish it, and then realize they've earned a new "toy" for their bag of tricks :) Personally, I'd like more options like this ::chuckle::
((But then, as the husband-unit can tell you, I am an EQII addict, Carpenter and Quest doer ... nearly 3000 completed quests to date, not counting all the collection quests! Glee!))
PS: Thank you to all of Paizo that helped get this goodness into my inbox!
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The idea for achievement feats was partially inspired by Xbox, partially by Warcraft. I enjoy the satisfaction of seeing an achievement pop up on a screen while I'm playing; it's proof that I'm accomplishing something and it appeals to the collector mentality. When writing the achievement feats for the player's guide, I was naturally worried that folks would hate them since they're so obviously inspired by video games.
ASIDE: It's weird to me that gamers, as a whole, seem not to care if tabletop RPGs take inspiration from novels, short stories, poetry, movies, music, or comics... but once you draw inspiration from video games (arguably today's MOST successful medium for delivering entertainment, now that Halo 3 and Grand Theft Auto IV have put opening day totals for the most successful movies to shame)... suddenly you've done something reprehensible. Is weird, I says.
It's written by you guys, I think that's excuse enough to like them.
Brown nosing aside, I don't mind the feats as much despite their lean towards video-game-ness, primarily because examples of 'achievements' have existed already. I've been in plenty of games where players kept track of their 'kills', or noted how much they healed, and there are plenty of prestige classes that required similar 'achievements' before entry.
This is a cool way to introduce "Superior Feats" (that heal one is godly, no pun intended) with huge requirements that are still pretty feasible to achieve at some point.
I approve.
As long as the "achievement" prerequisite is reasonably related to the bonus the feat grants, I (personally) don't care if they were inspired by video games, novels, movies, or whatever. It makes sense to me somebody could improve their ability at a particular task (such as hunting gnolls or healing) by practicing that task.
Frankly, I don't know why nobody did something like this before now...
Couldn't have said it better myself.
The idea for achievement feats was partially inspired by Xbox, partially by Warcraft. I enjoy the satisfaction of seeing an achievement pop up on a screen while I'm playing; it's proof that I'm accomplishing something and it appeals to the collector mentality. When writing the achievement feats for the player's guide, I was naturally worried that folks would hate them since they're so obviously inspired by video games.
ASIDE: It's weird to me that gamers, as a whole, seem not to care if tabletop RPGs take inspiration from novels, short stories, poetry, movies, music, or comics... but once you draw inspiration from video games (arguably today's MOST successful medium for delivering entertainment, now that Halo 3 and Grand Theft Auto IV have put opening day totals for the most successful movies to shame)... suddenly you've done something reprehensible. Is weird, I says.
I don't get it either. A fun idea is a fun idea, no matter where it comes from. And my players like building their character's legacy... to me that is really what the achievements are all about.
You once said what has become one of my favorite all time gaming quotes.
World of Warcraft has been ripping D&D off for years now. It's about time D&D returned the favor!
Exactly.
The experience you had while involved with a medium doesn't necessarily equate to the quality of that medium's source material. That is, if WoW Players make you angry, that isn't necessarily reflective of the game itself.
Would it be crazy talk to give my players the achievement feats as bonus feats when they've met the prerequisites? The prereqs are tough enough that I doubt any one player would get more than one in a campaign. Or are they (achievement feats) so potent as to require the expenditure of a feat slot?
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Would it be crazy talk to give my players the achievement feats as bonus feats when they've met the prerequisites? The prereqs are tough enough that I doubt any one player would get more than one in a campaign. Or are they (achievement feats) so potent as to require the expenditure of a feat slot?
I'd say they're pretty potent, and though they may take a while, they probably wouldn't take *that* long to get. The healing one is ESPECIALLY worth a feat. Free maximize on EVERY heal spell? And +4 to save DC when healing is used offensively?
Awesome.
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Creative Director
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Would it be crazy talk to give my players the achievement feats as bonus feats when they've met the prerequisites? The prereqs are tough enough that I doubt any one player would get more than one in a campaign. Or are they (achievement feats) so potent as to require the expenditure of a feat slot?
Not crazy at all. It will result in higher powered characters, for sure, but if it's fun and you're cool with higher powered characters... go for it!
You might want to limit one bonus feat to each player, though...
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To me their is nothing wrong with stealing from all sources including video games. I think many or at least me have a problem when it makes the RPG feel and play more like a video game than a typical RPG. Not that, that is bad, just not the feel some people want out of a RPG.
I read the achievements and I didn't have a problem with them. But not really something that appeals to me but I am not going to cry if they are included in future paizo stuff. I mean Paizo has to cater to a wide range of fans beyond my likes and wants.
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I have a question. The battle poi say that they grant a limited version of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, just for using them in pairs - but, as one-handed weapons, using them in pairs will result in a -4/-4 penalty rather than the -2/-2 penalty you normally deal with when using two weapons together, which would seem a disincentive to using the weapon altogether. Is that intentional, presumably as a balancing factor for the pure-energy nature of their damage?
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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James as stated in my other thread, thank you guys for the Sentinel Scorpion Wondrous Item. I just asked yesterday for a revamp of the Wyvern Watch Spell and here in the free .pdf I find (not 3 hours after asking) the very thing I wanted, only in a slightly better package!
--King of Vrock!
ASIDE: It's weird to me that gamers, as a whole, seem not to care if tabletop RPGs take inspiration from novels, short stories, poetry, movies, music, or comics... but once you draw inspiration from video games (arguably today's MOST successful medium for delivering entertainment, now that Halo 3 and Grand Theft Auto IV have put opening day totals for the most successful movies to shame)... suddenly you've done something reprehensible. Is weird, I says.
Honestly, I think people resent Videogame based ideas in tabletop games because the perception is Videogames and Computer Games are poaching our population. The idea is that more and more gamers, traditionally reclusive by nature, are shifting from the tabletop to the more convenient local of their own bedroom and computer.
I think this is especially prevelant amongst console RPGs and computer MMORPGs, which are perhaps hitting a bit too close to home. Because they're so similar to old D&D the differences create 'Uncanny Valley' dissonance from old tabletoppers. Those who came to tabletop from the likes of Final Fantasy or World of Warcraft first often have different expectations of what fantasy RPGs should be like than those who came from Fritz Leiber or Tolkien.
And then again, there are people who just don't like videogames, and don't want tabletop becoming more like something they don't like.
So... yeah. I don't exactly subscribe to that perspective and I'm not defending it, (it would be hypocritical, considering how fond I am of animation & anime and sometimes need to defend my interests from other tabletoppers there,) but it isn't an inexplicable phenomenon.
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I got an e-mail from Paizo (specifically Erik Mona) telling me that I have received a free preview of the Legacy of Fire Players Guide.
I downloaded it.. absolutely sweet, and chock full of cool stuff.. Like players traits.. and a kick a$$ idea (inspired by the MMO's I wonder).. achievements! Who says you can't squeeze some new ideas out of 3.5! Let alone Pathfinder RPG!
Anyway, its been a while since I've posted or been at chat.. But I'm still a loyal Paizoan, and wanted to express my appreciation for this preview. I look forward to remaining a Pathfinder superscriber in this very exciting year to come!
Where could I get my hands on a LoF preview? Is this a DM's preview or a players preview?
Where could I get my hands on a LoF preview? Is this a DM's preview or a players preview?
If I'm not mistaken you have to be a subscriber to the Pathfinder AP line to gain access to it. I'm not sure whether you will gain access to it if you sign up now, or if it was a one time deal.
As for your second question, it's a player's guide.
I see how they are cool and can add some fun to the game, but I have told my players that I won't use them because like a previous poster said, they seem really metagamey and will require a lot of paper keeping to chart each individual players progress on each idvidual feat they do something that applies to it. The second a lot of my players read about it they were already cooking up schemes to get those feats really fast, and I think it will be a distraction to the game as a whole. It will be like some of the goofy feats in Halo 3 like the one where you have to splatter someone with a mongoose. When I bought the game the night it came out, everyone was driving mongooses around trying to run each other over and not focussing on the game. In Lone Wolves people were trying to organize ways for everyone to stand around and let people get the Sword triple kill achievement (sorry if I can't remember the exact names of these achievements, I haven't played in a long long time). The point is I think that for some groups these will be more of a distraction from the regular gameplay than normal, which is why I opted not to use them. For some people running group of more focussed and mature gamers it might work.
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Where could I get my hands on a LoF preview? Is this a DM's preview or a players preview?If I'm not mistaken you have to be a subscriber to the Pathfinder AP line to gain access to it. I'm not sure whether you will gain access to it if you sign up now, or if it was a one time deal.
As for your second question, it's a player's guide.
I got the LoF player's guide as a free download when I linked from the e-mail Paizo sent me. You have to have your e-mail accept their direct marketing to receive it, it doesn't matter whether or not you are a subscriber (I wasn't, and it inspired me to subscribe).
This is a bit off topic, but I couldn't find the information anywhere else.
Has Paizo discontinued the practice of including a free (hard copy) players guide for subscribers? I was hoping to see one with the first volume of this AP, but I didn't get one.
So...new policy, or just a mistake?
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Creative Director
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This is a bit off topic, but I couldn't find the information anywhere else.
Has Paizo discontinued the practice of including a free (hard copy) players guide for subscribers? I was hoping to see one with the first volume of this AP, but I didn't get one.
So...new policy, or just a mistake?
New policy. We simply can't afford to give away free print products forever, alas.
We were giving away free player's guides at the start as much as to get folks interested in Golarion and what we were doing as much as we were trying to get them interested in the Adventure Paths. Now that the world of Golarion is established, there's less of a need to reprint all of that bolierplate material about deities and races and stuff.
Also, going forward, the Player's Guides to adventure paths are going to be smaller; again, they don't need to serve as introductions to the world anymore—just to the adventure path at hand. They'll likely be 4–8 page free PDFs starting with Council of Thieves, but we'll likely continue to time the Pathfinder Companion so that the one coming out at the same time as a new AP will be of particular interest to those playing in that AP.
This is a bit off topic, but I couldn't find the information anywhere else.
Has Paizo discontinued the practice of including a free (hard copy) players guide for subscribers? I was hoping to see one with the first volume of this AP, but I didn't get one.
So...new policy, or just a mistake?
New policy. We simply can't afford to give away free print products forever, alas.
We were giving away free player's guides at the start as much as to get folks interested in Golarion and what we were doing as much as we were trying to get them interested in the Adventure Paths. Now that the world of Golarion is established, there's less of a need to reprint all of that bolierplate material about deities and races and stuff.
Ah, okay! No problem, then. Thanks for the quick reply, James. Paizo still rocks, as always!
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Are we able to share the free PDF with our players?
I think they prefer they make an account and DL the free PDFs themselves.
That way, they can guesstimate interest, and if it somehow winds up on the torrents, their sigs are on it, not yours.Other than that, if you print it out and have it at the table, I think you're good.
I think they prefer they make an account and DL the free PDFs themselves.
I think s/he was referring to the PDF preview that was only handed out as a one off. Since it is no longer offered as free, I'd think it was a bit iffy as to the properness.
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Yah. The players made an account after the fact, and as far as I know they don't have access to the free Legacy of Fire PDF.
They're chomping at the bit to have a look, but I'd rather do the Right Thing. Given that it's no longer offered as a freebie, I'm not sure where it sits in regards being able to pass it on or not.
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Creative Director
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Yah. The players made an account after the fact, and as far as I know they don't have access to the free Legacy of Fire PDF.
They're chomping at the bit to have a look, but I'd rather do the Right Thing. Given that it's no longer offered as a freebie, I'm not sure where it sits in regards being able to pass it on or not.
We'd rather not have multiple copies floating around. You can give out printouts of the book to your players, and can certainly give out the PDF, but keep in mind that if one of your players then turns around and posts the PDF online, it'll look like, to us, YOU'RE posting it online.
This is the main reason we're divorcing the Player's Guides from the Pathfinder Companion, in fact; with the Player's Guide info located in a free PDF, the players get all the info they need about the adventure path and then have the option to buy the associated Pathfinder Companion if they want to find out more.