Quick, what's the Challenge Rating of a Kraken with 20 levels in druid (or cleric, wizard, sorcerer, rogue, bard, or monk)?
If you answered anything other than "CR 20", you're wrong.
Yes, that's right. This CR 12 base creature only adds 8 CR for getting 20 levels in a full spellcasting class. The math, for those who are skeptical:
12 CR base with 20 HD. 20 non-associated class levels (non-associated levels are 1/2 CR until they exceed the monster's hit dice). -2 CR for being a monster with PC class levels (Pathfinder rule). That's 12 + 10 - 2 = 20.
For the record, I was originally planning this NPC as a potential villain for an RPG Superstar entry. I wanted a Kraken Druid or Cleric, but looked at the Kraken's CR and was disappointed because I thought it wouldn't be an effective caster for the encounter level the party would need to be at. Then I saw how many hit die it had, and started doing the math.
Anyhow. My suggestion to fix the NAC mess is to limit NA levels to 1/2 CR only when they're less than the base CR of the creature. In the Kraken's case, that means it could go up to 12 levels in a caster class and be only CR 18 which is fairly reasonable for combining a potent combatant and a 6th-level-spells caster. At CR 20, though, it would only be a level 14 character. That's a very significant power drop from being a level 20 character, and IMO much more accurate.
Using CR as the base avoids one of the main traps with monsters: their hit dice are almost always waaaaaaaaaaay higher than their CR. That's not a problem when all you're concerned about is whacking them with a sharp stick, but when it gets down to the nuts and bolts of designing them....
12 CR base with 20 HD. 20 non-associated class levels (non-associated levels are 1/2 CR until they exceed the monster's hit dice). -2 CR for being a monster with PC class levels (Pathfinder rule). That's 12 + 10 - 2 = 20.
I might be wrong but isn't that -2 used only if creature does not have any racial Hit Dice.
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Creature advancement is a mess.
Apart from the obvious fact that not all classes are equal, even comparing within the subsets of favoured and non-favoured (which is a whole forum in itself), some classes just don't add anything worthwhile.
An odd Fighter/Rogue etc level here or there is useful for covering the weak points of a low-CR creature. That one extra feat buys them a prerequisite for some interesting ability. A +1d6 Sneak Attack, or Evasion can surprise a jaded party. But beyond that?
Would a Kraken Fighter 20 be as much of a threat as a Kraken Wizard 20?
Seriously?
Only if you make dumb spell choices, and have it waste its actions popping off Magic Missiles against high-level Shielded PCs, instead of buffing itself into an unkillable death-machine.
At base 20HD, it would have as many feats as it needs to do its job.
It would have completed several feat chains, all the way up to the capstone abilities.
Gaining extra Fighter feats gives it nothing, except the ability to start another feat chain from the bottom, with low-level effects.
Give it every Grapple feat in the book, give it every Grapple feat you can find in third-party sources, its Grapple still gets trumped by a 7th level party with a core 4th-level spell.
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There comes a point when you're not 'adding class levels' to a base creature any more. You're adding a creature to a bunch of class levels.
Why is it assumed that we have to treat it as a 'Kraken with Wizard levels', instead of what it actually is?
'A Wizard 20, with the 20HD Kraken template'?
Start at CR18 (PC20-2), then add 20 monster HD, so even under current rules, that's CR28, before even considering the Kraken special abilities!
I might be wrong but isn't that -2 used only if creature does not have any racial Hit Dice.
12 CR base with 20 HD. 20 non-associated class levels (non-associated levels are 1/2 CR until they exceed the monster's hit dice). -2 CR for being a monster with PC class levels (Pathfinder rule). That's 12 + 10 - 2 = 20.
Correct, so the technical CR is 22, which is probably close to accurate - as a "Boss fight" for a 19th or 20th level party.
I might be wrong but isn't that -2 used only if creature does not have any racial Hit Dice.
12 CR base with 20 HD. 20 non-associated class levels (non-associated levels are 1/2 CR until they exceed the monster's hit dice). -2 CR for being a monster with PC class levels (Pathfinder rule). That's 12 + 10 - 2 = 20.
Whoops, you're right.
Still, the creature is argument is sound; so it's a <class> 17 instead of a <class> 20. It can still cast 9th level spells.
There comes a point when you're not 'adding class levels' to a base creature any more. You're adding a creature to a bunch of class levels.
Why is it assumed that we have to treat it as a 'Kraken with Wizard levels', instead of what it actually is?
Because that's how the rules tell us to create creatures.
Don't forget to use the Epic BAB and Save progression in place of the Wizards saves.
Don't forget to use the Epic BAB and Save progression in place of the Wizards saves.
Yep. That's another thing. Those 9 feats it gets from the 17 levels of <class>? They're all eligible to be Epic feats (although, note that Pathfinder will be tossing the old Epic rules and making their own). So you can have a CR20 critter with 9 Epic Feats. Multispell, anyone? Spell Stowaway (time stop)? Etc. And all still CR20, according to the rules.
Well I think that speaks more to how the 'Epic' (beyond 20th level) rules need to be revised. It impacts more then just players after all.
Yeah. But it's relevant here, too.
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I don't think N-A levels need to go away, for the record. It's certainly true that they're rather prickly to deal with, but on the other hand a stone giant with 1 level of wizard is not really any more dangerous than one with no class levels at all, and certainly LESS dangerous than one with a level in fighter or barbarian. So, it's obvious that not all monster-class combinations are created equal, and in the whole of it I believe that non-associated classes are the right tack to take. It's just the details of the thing.
Does anyone else have any suggestions on fixes to the system?
Well, perhaps you could use something like using the racial adjustment to the class' key ability to CR derived from class levels. As example, a race of giant that grants STR +8 would add this value to CR of fighter class levels, considering that Strength is a key ability to fighters... Just an idea..