So, sorcerers got bloodlines, wizards got nice school powers, clerics get cool domain powers, and everyone can cast a handful of cantrips all day long at-will.
Every primary spellcasting class has some way to use their magic constructively in combat round after round after round without running out, using at-will combat abilities.
Except druids.
They get nothing.
They don't even have any useful combat cantrips. Their best repeatable combat utility is Flare, to cause one enemy to be -1 on attack rolls for a round.
They are still limited to the old standard "I shoot the ogre with my sling, using my crappy BAB and my crappy DEX mod."
Sure, they can take one cleric domain if they want to permanently give up their animal companion.
Or they can keep their animal companion and let their little wolfie run around nipping at the ogre's heels, unti it gets squashed, while they bounce harmless sling bullets off the ogre's armor, or off of the trees and rocks and ground in the general vicinity of the ogre.
OK, I get it. 3.5 druids were powerhouses.
So the Pathfinder solution is to make every one of their 6 ability scores useful to them (the only class that doesn't really have at least 1 practical dump stat), then enhance all the other primary spellcasters to make them *always* useful in combat at low levels, then nerf druid's wildshape into a shade of its former glory?
Basically, druids got the shaft, and every other primary spellcaster got significantly enhanced.
Especially at low levels.
Sure, if a druid can survive his pathetic low-level uselessness and actually make it into double-digit levels, he finally evolves into something that might evoke a little fear on the battlefield, or in the dungeon.
But why did he get no love in the low-levels, when he needs it the most?
It seems to me to be too much.
Does anyone else share this opinion? Am I alone in my assessment that the low-level druids are pathetic compared to any other spellcasting class in Pathfinder Beta?
At low levels, druids get an animal companion or a domain --> not useless.
At high levels, druids get a bunch of wild shape uses on top of that --> again, not useless.
I just don't see where the "weakness" and "uselessness" is. A druid can do basically everything that a cleric can do (except turn undead). Is it a matter of not liking the druid spell list?
OK, I am not one to rant about problems without offering solutions.
It seems that the druid weakness stems from two things.
1. MAD. (Multiple Ability Dependency). Druids need high WIS for spellcasting. That's a given. If they ever want to wildshape and be effective in combat (read: not turning into a butterfly and nuking from above), then they need decent STR, DEX, CON. They probably want the DEX for good AC an CON for good HP/Fort anyway. INT is required for some of their best skills, and for more skills. And CHA is required for handling animals and teaching them tricks - one of the primary functions of being a druid.
In other words, a druid is shooting himself in the foot if he has a low ability score in any of the 6 abilities.
No other class is so dependent on all 6 abilities.
So I suggest a couple easy modifications to the druid:
A. Add a class ability at level 1 that lets them use their WIS mod to Handle Animal checks. This will allow druids to at least sacrifice CHA on the altar of the great Dump Stat.
B. Bump them up to 6 skill points per level. Druids should be able to stay at or near maximum on Handle Animal, Knowledge (Nature), Spellcraft, and Survival, and they can benefit greatly from Fly, Heal, and Ride, and they can benefit slightly from Climb, Knowledge (Geography), Perception, Survival, and Swim. That's a lot to ask of them at only 4 skill points and very likely a weak INT score, more than almost any other class. 2 extra skill points will help alleviate some of this.
Those two simple fixes will cure the druid of many of his symptoms of MAD, bringing him down to where he really is only dependent on STR, DEX, CON, and WIS - still more than most classes, but at least it's much more workable.
2. No useful combat abilities at low level.
With low BAB, low AC (no metal armor) and generally mediocre (at best) melee ability scores, druids cannot rush into battle like melee classes, nor are they likely to impress their enemies much with ranged combat firing sling bullets with their low BAB and weak sling damage when they are lucky enough to hit anything.
All primary spellcasters get easy access to repeatable ranged touch attacks that do 1d6 or more damage (bloodlines, schools, and domains). This allows every primary spellcaster to actually make magical attacks every round of combat with a reasonable chance of success (ranged touch attacks hit most enemies fairly easily).
But druids do not get access to such a class feature, unless they permanently give up their animal companion in exchange for 1 cleric domain from a limited list.
It seems to me that the simple fix here is:
A. Allow druids access to one domain without giving up their animal companion. After all, clerics get two domains and can select from a large list of domains. They don't have to give up any primary class features to gain this ability.
At higher levels, when druids really start to shine, this one domain won't overpower druids.
But at low levels, when druids are ineffective in combat and relying on their weak little pet furry critter to compensate for their lack of combat presence, that's when this added domain utility will shine for them, allowing them to bring at least some combat ustility to the table.
***********************
These simple fixes will, in my opinion, fix the druid class, giving them much needed combat utility at low-levels without restoring druids to the powerhouses they used to be in 3.5.
As a DM, I would gladly houserule this stuff for druids without any fear that this will overpower the class in any way.
At low levels, druids get an animal companion or a domain --> not useless.
Animal companions are neat, but not terribly effective at replacing an adventurer in combat.
Quite frankly, if I were an adventurer, and I was looking to fill a spot in my adventuring party, and my choice was between a druid in leather armor who stands off to the side while he lets a wolf run around biting my enemies, or just about any other adventuring class, I won't hire the druid.
I would hire a melee class that would be much more effective than the wolf.
Or if I needed more spell utility, I would get a mage or cleric, since they can perform useful magic every round instead of plinking away with a worthless sling.
Maybe, if that druid had a domain instead of a pet, I might consider hiring him. But, to me, a druid's animal companion is a class-defining feature of druids. Druids are all about animals. They speak with them, they empathise with them, they train them - taking this away so they can get half of the cleric domain ability is both weak and wrong.
At high levels, druids get a bunch of wild shape uses on top of that --> again, not useless.
High levels are not the problem for druids.
Although, surviving until they reach high levels is definitely a problem for them.
I just don't see where the "weakness" and "uselessness" is. A druid can do basically everything that a cleric can do (except turn undead). Is it a matter of not liking the druid spell list?
Yes, that is a little of the problem right there.
A cleric at low levels is more likely to survive in melee because he has more AC from his armor and has more opportunity to heal himself if things start to go badly.
A druid cannot heal nearly as well as a cleric, so they make a poor choice for a primary healer.
Druids get a decent spell list. Entangle is powerful, produce flame is a good level 1 attack. Cure Light Wounds is clearly useful. Spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally is OK, though I feel the duration is too short at low levels to really justify the use (I would add WIS or INT mod to all summon spell durations).
But where their spells are lacking is in the At-Will category. Orisons. There is nothing on the druid orison list that they will use effectively in combat. Flare is more worthless than firing their slings.
Sure, clerics have nothing useful either, but they almost certainly have at least one domain that gives them at at-will combat option.
Druids can get a domain, but again, only at the too-expensive price of giving up a class-defining ability, their animal companion.
Which means druids are stuck standing on the sidelines during combat.
Sidelining low-level druids in 3.5 wasn't too bad a thing, since all the other primary casters were equally ineffective. All of them shared, in common, the fact that they had just a couple useful spells, then were resigned to firing crossbows.
Now druids are the only class that must still play from the sidelines.
That's the part I want to fix.
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Watch our high level PbP playtests to see the functionality of the druid at upper levels. The druid ruled the 9th level playtest and is holding his own in the 15th level test.
call lightning is a 3rd level spell...barkskin a 2nd level spell. summon nature's ally is their most powerful low-level spell. They're not front-line fighters, they're not supposed to be...so make an elf druid and buy a longbow...now you can feel more useful, while your companion and natural allies do some damage.
Leaving aside the animal companion (since you consider it "useless" -- which has not been my experience -- I'll assume that the druid trades it in for a domain), I still don't see the big difference between the cleric and the druid (at low levels) other than the fact that a druid doesn't get heavy armor proficiency and the cleric gets an extra domain. The cleric is better at healing magic, but the druid is better at combat spells (produce flame, flaming sphere, entangle, summon nature's ally, etc.).
I agree that a druid using leather armor and a sling is kind of stuck on the sidelines, but the same would go for a cleric with leather armor and a sling.
I think having the Domain option grant 2 Domains is reasonable.
I'd also like to see some more Domain choices, such as Healing.
(incidentally I hate the Water-Cold obfuscation, but that's probably a D&Dism that isn't changing)
Likewise, a stronger Wildshape being a trade-off option also seems a decent possibility.
Personally, I really think the SNA Spontaneous Casting should be dumped for more flavorful, varied spells (like the Druid Racial Substitution level options), though if "Conjuring Wild Animals" is going to be such a core Druid ability, I would think being able to Conjure/Teleport the Animal Companion itself would make sense (and would help for bypassing environmental situations which the AC can't deal with/fit). Bringing in at least an option of more "Magical Animal" and/or Fey Companion types also seems reasonable...
My Air domain druid kicked ass =/, he was a smack talking walking explosion. I agree though that having two domains would make up for a lot of the druid's low level weakness, and bring them well in line with clerics of a similar level. I also feel that the druid's available domains should be expanded, if only slightly; healing, sun, travel: i'm lookin at you. Sun especially. Possibly make one domain available at 1st, and open up a second domain at 5th(a nearly dead level for druids) or 6th, even going as far as to have this second domain level at a penalty.
So, sorcerers got bloodlines, wizards got nice school powers, clerics get cool domain powers, and everyone can cast a handful of cantrips all day long at-will.
Every primary spellcasting class has some way to use their magic constructively in combat round after round after round without running out, using at-will combat abilities.
Except druids.
They get nothing.
You are correct! They are good, don't get me wrong - but either they need something extra, or the other casters need to lose something. I mean, can we even get some different Druidic traditions or something?
They don't even have any useful combat cantrips. Their best repeatable combat utility is Flare, to cause one enemy to be -1 on attack rolls for a round.
They are still limited to the old standard "I shoot the ogre with my sling, using my crappy BAB and my crappy DEX mod."
Sure, they can take one cleric domain if they want to permanently give up their animal companion.
Or they can keep their animal companion and let their little wolfie run around nipping at the ogre's heels, unti it gets squashed, while they bounce harmless sling bullets off the ogre's armor, or off of the trees and rocks and ground in the general vicinity of the ogre.
I haven't had the chance to play a high-level Animal Companion. I may get the chance to do so this weekend. We shall see if they are worthless at 16th level, at least...
So the Pathfinder solution is to make every one of their 6 ability scores useful to them (the only class that doesn't really have at least 1 practical dump stat), then enhance all the other primary spellcasters to make them *always* useful in combat at low levels, then nerf druid's wildshape into a shade of its former glory?
Now this... this I hate. Druids are the Monks of spellcasters now, it seems - crazy MAD going on here.
Basically, druids got the shaft, and every other primary spellcaster got significantly enhanced.
Especially at low levels.
Sure, if a druid can survive his pathetic low-level uselessness and actually make it into double-digit levels, he finally evolves into something that might evoke a little fear on the battlefield, or in the dungeon.
But why did he get no love in the low-levels, when he needs it the most?
It seems to me to be too much.
Does anyone else share this opinion? Am I alone in my assessment that the low-level druids are pathetic compared to any other spellcasting class in Pathfinder Beta?
I haven't playtested them at low levels, so I really can't say, but you do bring up a lot of really good points in this thread.
So the Pathfinder solution is to make every one of their 6 ability scores useful to them (the only class that doesn't really have at least 1 practical dump stat), then enhance all the other primary spellcasters to make them *always* useful in combat at low levels, then nerf druid's wildshape into a shade of its former glory?Now this... this I hate. Druids are the Monks of spellcasters now, it seems - crazy MAD going on here.
Again, I don't see how druids have any more M.A.D. than clerics. In fact, I think they have less (since they don't have to worry about charisma for Channel Energy).
B. Bump them up to 6 skill points per level. Druids should be able to stay at or near maximum on Handle Animal, Knowledge (Nature), Spellcraft, and Survival, and they can benefit greatly from Fly, Heal, and Ride, and they can benefit slightly from Climb, Knowledge (Geography), Perception, Survival, and Swim. That's a lot to ask of them at only 4 skill points and very likely a weak INT score, more than almost any other class. 2 extra skill points will help alleviate some of this.
I like this.
All primary spellcasters get easy access to repeatable ranged touch attacks that do 1d6 or more damage (bloodlines, schools, and domains). This allows every primary spellcaster to actually make magical attacks every round of combat with a reasonable chance of success (ranged touch attacks hit most enemies fairly easily).
But druids do not get access to such a class feature, unless they permanently give up their animal companion in exchange for 1 cleric domain from a limited list.
It seems to me that the simple fix here is:
A. Allow druids access to one domain without giving up their animal companion. After all, clerics get two domains and can select from a large list of domains. They don't have to give up any primary class features to gain this ability.
At higher levels, when druids really start to shine, this one domain won't overpower druids.
But at low levels, when druids are ineffective in combat and relying on their weak little pet furry critter to compensate for their lack of combat presence, that's when this added domain utility will shine for them, allowing them to bring at least some combat ustility to the table.
I also like this. I hope someone from the design team takes a good look at this thread, because it has some really good ideas.
Again, I don't see how druids have any more M.A.D. than clerics. In fact, I think they have less (since they don't have to worry about charisma for Channel Energy).
Because Clerics have better armor, weapons, and self-buff spells and are able to deploy them in such a manner where they can be quite competent melee combatants. Their awesome spells offset their need to have decent physical ability scores.
Druids? Not so much. No Divine Favor, no Divine Might. I think that they would be helped out a great deal if they gained additional bonuses to their ability scores while Wild Shaped, or perhaps some other abilities such as being able to penetrate DR/magic while Wild Shaped. But right now, they don't get any extra Domain spells, their Animal Companions are good but not fantastic, and they aren't great combatants in Wild Shape unless either 1) they gut the rest of their ability scores or 2) they have insanely high ability scores.
I see druids are becoming the second monk class being MAD, which makes playing one that bit more difficult. I really liked the idea of having a Cleric Domain over an animal compantion, as it gives druids some more options rather then being the stock standard type.
I like how druids use all of their ability scores. Most of them are not important enough that sacrificing it will severely weaken druids. I consider MAD the balance factor. without it, a druid would be a great melee fighter and spellcaster with a companion, but now Druids must choose what to focus on or whether to stay in the middle.
eh druids were the best classes in 3.5 now they are not but still damned good....I fail to see an issue here
On the note of more skill points, no if you can't give the 2 skill classes more I don't want to even hear about giving more to a class that has 4
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Druids with animal companions get 2 sets of actions each round. At 1st level, the wolf companion compares well to the 1st level fighter (better Speed, Reflex Save,Trip Special Attack, about the same HP and attack, less damage, lower AC) And on top of whatever the wolf does each round, the Druid gets to do something. This is better then getting to cast single cantrip/orison each round. A First level Druid can effectively resurrect (replace) her animal companion every other day(24 hours of meditation), unlike if any other party member dies. This is extra actions AND extra defense/hit points- and the same goes for any allies the Druid summons.
On MAD: They have more skill points than Clerics, Fighters, Paladins, Sorcerers, and Wizards. They don't need high Int. They are not dependant on high physical scores, as the Wild Shape improves these scores practically all day. Yes, they need high Wis. And Cha couldn't hurt, just like a Cleric.
Comparison:
divine power - 4th level Cleric spell (requires CL7)
+2 attack, +2 damage, strength checks, etc., 1 extra attack for 7 rounds
vs.
Wild Shape @ 7th level (beast shape ii or elemental body i)
(large animal, Dire Lion) +4 Strength, -2 Dex, +4 Natural AC, low-light vision, scent, improved grab, pounce for 7 hours
(elemental) +2 enhancement bonus, +2-4 natural armor, darkvision 60', special movement, other specials for 7 hours
righteous might - 5th level Cleric Spell (CL9)
+4 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, +2 natural armor, DR 5/alignment 9 rounds
vs.
Wild Shape @ 9th level (beast shape iii, elemental body ii, or plant shape i)
(Huge Animal, Megaraptor) +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 natural armor, low-light vision, scent, pounce 9 hours
(elemental) +4 enhancement bonus, +3-5 natural armor, darkvision 60', special movement, other specials 9 hours
(plant) meh
Overall, Druids still rock. I wouldn't call them weak.
eh druids were the best classes in 3.5 now they are not but still damned good....I fail to see an issue here
On the note of more skill points, no if you can't give the 2 skill classes more I don't want to even hear about giving more to a class that has 4
I never said we can't give the 2-skill classes more skill points.
I even argued in favor of 4 skill points for fighters. I hate the mentality that all fighters are dumb brutes.
Druids with animal companions get 2 sets of actions each round. At 1st level, the wolf companion compares well to the 1st level fighter (better Speed, Reflex Save,Trip Special Attack, about the same HP and attack, less damage, lower AC) And on top of whatever the wolf does each round, the Druid gets to do something. This is better then getting to cast single cantrip/orison each round. A First level Druid can effectively resurrect (replace) her animal companion every other day(24 hours of meditation), unlike if any other party member dies. This is extra actions AND extra defense/hit points- and the same goes for any allies the Druid summons.
At level 1, you're right. Though I would expect most level 1 fightes have a special attack of their own. Often Power Attack, but if nothing else, they have two feats and should have something up their sleeve comparable to the wolf's Trip. And their higher AC and better damage more than compensates for lower REF save (how much REF saving do 1st level fighters actually face?).
Except, our level 1 campaign (RoRL) just started in Sandpoint and the first thing the DM told our druid is that her wolf doesn't like being around all the funny-smelling mean two-legs in the town, and that town guards won't tolerate a wild wolf walking through town. Both of his arguments are perfectly valid.
So our druid's animal companion is lurking around out in the wilderness, several hours away from town, and of ZERO use to her at this time.
And I'm sure it won't be the only time.
And at any level, the druid's animal companion is easy to kill. Often one-shotted or two-shotted by any decently challening foe who grows tired of the wolf nibbling at his hamstrings.
Then the druid is without any compaion until a suitable time to find another is found. This can be many game sessions, in some cases. Once the druid finds it, it's time to start teaching it tricks, like Attack and Stay and such.
Druids are the only class where a major portion of their class utility can be removed by a single enemy attack, crippling them for many game days (well, wizards with their spellbooks, but those are easier to hide and are not required to be out in the open and vulnerable to attack during every fight).
As for level 2 or 3, that wolf falls farther and farther behind the party fighter, but he is required to fight the same foes that the fighter is fighting, going up against more and more hopeless odds as the CRs get harder.
By the time the druid reaches 5th level, sending his animal companion in to get stomped by trolls is just begging to spend the next few gaming sessions looking for a new pet. Even with the couple bonuses the wolfie gets as the druid levels, he's no match for monsters that are a decent challenge for the party.
So as far as druids getting 2 sets of actions each round, it quickly becomes no more meaningful than a wizard with a familiar geting 2 sets of actions. And that's even assuming the druid's animal companion is with the druid, rather than lurking around the wilderness outside of the city walls...
On MAD: They have more skill points than Clerics, Fighters, Paladins, Sorcerers, and Wizards. They don't need high Int. They are not dependant on high physical scores, as the Wild Shape improves these scores practically all day. Yes, they need high Wis. And Cha couldn't hurt, just like a Cleric.
I disagree.
An unintelligent druid goes against all I have ever seen of them in fiction. Every book I've read or movie I have seen depicts druids as both clever and wise, full of knowledge of everything known and unknown. Terry Brook's Alanon, and all the stories of Merlin, are two primary examples that come quickly to mind. Turning INT into a dump stat is anathema to the genre, if nothing else.
But, as I've listed, they have too many useful, perhaps required, skills to keep up with only 4 skill points. Dumping INT down to an 8 and getting only 3 skill points is even worse.
As for your argument that they don't need high physical ability scores, you're right. They could dump wildshape and take a domain, in which case they are just lame spellcasters with weak healing and weak blasting and barely passable buffing abilities.
Or they can depend on wildshape, transform into cool critters and charge into the fray, only to get spanked over and over when their puny 14 STR/16 DEX/12 CON (in wildshape form) combined with their creature form's lower AC and weak attacks, cannot compare to the party mainline melee classes or to the monsters that are engaged in melee as a challenging encounter for the party's melee classes.
Wildshape is an iconic ability for druids. I hate the thought of playing a druid without it. But I also hate the thought of wildshaping into a weak form that just causes the poor druid to take excessive damage and inflict little damage to the foes.
This makes him a liability.
After the battle, he will need more healing than the other characters. And the rest of the players will be telling him to reroll a barbarian or ranger so he might be able to do some decent damage output.
This cannot be what Pathfinder wants for the druid class.
Comparison:
divine power - 4th level Cleric spell (requires CL7)
+2 attack, +2 damage, strength checks, etc., 1 extra attack for 7 roundsvs.
Wild Shape @ 7th level (beast shape ii or elemental body i)
(large animal, Dire Lion) +4 Strength, -2 Dex, +4 Natural AC, low-light vision, scent, improved grab, pounce for 7 hours
(elemental) +2 enhancement bonus, +2-4 natural armor, darkvision 60', special movement, other specials for 7 hoursrighteous might - 5th level Cleric Spell (CL9)
+4 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, +2 natural armor, DR 5/alignment 9 roundsvs.
Wild Shape @ 9th level (beast shape iii, elemental body ii, or plant shape i)
(Huge Animal, Megaraptor) +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 natural armor, low-light vision, scent, pounce 9 hours
(elemental) +4 enhancement bonus, +3-5 natural armor, darkvision 60', special movement, other specials 9 hours
(plant) mehOverall, Druids still rock. I wouldn't call them weak.
Yeah, yeah.
So assuming Mr. druid has a 10 STR, 12 DEX, 10 CON and pops into a Megaraptor, his combat aiblity scores are now 16 STR, 8 DEX, 10 CON - a total of +2 to his combined physical modifiers. He has an AC of 15 plus any magical items like rings of protection, the vision of an elf, a scent ability, and can pounce.
Compare to the party's 9th level fighter who has 20 STR, 12 DEX, 16 CON for a total of +9 on the modifiers, an AC of 15 + magical items, possibly dark vision or low-light vision depending on his class, no scent ability, and has 5 fighter feats to compensate for lack of pounce (weapon focus, weapon spec, power attack, cleave, and maybe toughness, for example). And the fighter has more HP and a better BAB and gets 2 attacks per round (3 when he can cleave).
Now put the megaraptor/druid against one hill giant and the fighter against a second hill giant.
How do those two fights go? And who is the party cleric dumping all of his healing onto just to keep him alive?
No, wildshaping with tiny little stat bonuses and little else to show for it will just get your party's druid killed, or at best, be a huge drain on party resources.
Of course, maybe the druid has better STR/DEX/CON to start with - but your argument (see above) was that they don't need them, that druids don't suffer from too much MAD.
As I have said, 3.5 druids were huge powerhouses. I never doubted that.
But the nerf to wildshape has crippled that into a waste of party resources, and the enhancements to all the other spellcasters have left the poor druid in the dust, especially in the levels before the nerfed wildshape kicks in (I said it's weak, but it can have its uses occasionally). While the mages are out there blasting something every round, whipping out the useful spells on the big enemies, druids are plinking away with their slings, occasionally summoning a little bitty animal that might do a few points of damage before the duration on the summons runs out.
No, this class has become a sad travesty of its former glory, and it needs some love to bring it back on par with the other spellcasters in the game.