I think that magic item crafters would have a lot of fun if Pathfinder included rules about changing the properties of magic items into other properties meant for the same type of item.
Alter Magic Item or Property
Requirement: The old item has to have a crafting cost equal to or higher than the new item's crafting cost.
Requirement: The old item and the new item have to be the same type of item.
If it doesn't share a spell requirement in item creation, then it costs 1/2 the crafting cost in gp of crafting the new item or adding the property.
Ex. ring of protection +4 >>> ring of evasion
Normal Crafting Cost: 12,500 gp
Alteration Crafting Cost: 6,250 gp
If it shares a spell requirement in item creation, then it costs 1/4 the crafting cost in gp of crafting the new item or adding the property.
Ex. +1 armor of fire resistance >>> +1 armor of cold resistance
Shared Spell Requirement: resist energy
Normal Crafting Cost: 9,000 gp
Alteration Crafting Cost: 2,250 gp
The idea is interesting, but I would actually venture to say the ability is almost too good. Without heavy prerequisites, every party would practically force their casters to take this, as it could allow even the most financially inept groups to save themselves a rather impressive amount of money normally "lost" in the selling of unusable loot.
I compare it to the Artificer from Eberron. Said class could harness the XP of an item for later item creation. A great ability, but the cost was the gold value of the origional item. So the great ability had a suitable tradeoff. With this, as I understand it, gaining any item close to what you want allows you to then get what you want for a fraction of the normal cost.
Let me see if I have this right, as an example:
+1 Flaming Sword
Create Cost: 4000
Change to +1 Frost Sword
1000
Total Money Expense 1000
Now, normally:
+1 Flaming Sword
Sell Value: 4000
Purchase +1 Frost Sword
8000
Total Money Expense 4000
Taking it futher, what if they gain a +1 Elf-Bane sword from an Orc Warrior? They could take a sword that many DMs would say is hard to sell, convert it into a +1 Orc-Bane sword, and sell it likely quite easily, making 3000g where they may have not had much chance of profit at all.
I'm playing devils advocate here, I love things that give the PCs options, and I love magic item tinkering as well. But I can see a wide potential for abuse, as your proposal currently stands.
However, I do see some potential too. Take my comments as constructive criticism, and see if you can make some improvements on the mechanics.
Basically, all that would be needed would be to have the appropriate item creation feat.
There is still the cost of time, and this would give a healthy alternative to the "magic shop with everything" that DMs are frequently tempted to allow players.
Plus, if the PCs aren't in a situation where they can plausibly sell their goods, this gives them something to do with the magic items that are dead weight to them.
Selling a magic item "easily" depends on the DM. Realistically, it should take time to find a buyer with both the cash and desire for such a weapon. Some campaigns or adventures may have the PCs in a place where purveyors/buyers of magic items are not easily available.
When you get a magic item you don't want to keep, this is a plausible way to get what you want without having to go looking for the nearest city or metropolis with a healthy number of magic users/artificers.
This also cuts the time on making an item from scratch when time is of the essence. For example, the big bad monster is going to attack within 10 days and you need to equip everyone with the correct weapons necessary to beat it. There is no universal magic shop nearby and you don't know of such a place to teleport to. You then sacrifice several magic weapons that the party found on the last few adventures but haven't gotten around to using, with some extra materials purchased at the local market. Because you had a head start by using existing magic weapons, you are able to make the goods just in time for the monster's attack.
A DM can also feel safer with random item generation if someone has an item creation feat to adjust the circumstances.
The Black Bard wrote:
Let me see if I have this right, as an example:
+1 Flaming Sword
Create Cost: 4000
Change to +1 Frost Sword
1000
Total Money Expense 1000
+1 flaming sword >>> +1 frost sword
the cost for adding a +1 property to a +1 sword is 6,000 gp (3,000 craft + 3 days)
Total Money Expense = 750 gp + 1 day
And remember, you're not gaining wealth by this method. You're simply saving wealth.
Your expected wealth should consist of items that you are actually going to use anyway and the DM is still responsible for how much is handed out to the players.
This can only be abused if the DM overcompensates bad items given by giving out too many items. Being able to alter magic items however actually takes pressure off of wealth tracking and equipment efficiency since the DM worries less about what is found in treasure. This means more energy spent on making good adventures, which makes everybody happy.
The Black Bard wrote:
Taking it futher, what if they gain a +1 Elf-Bane sword from an Orc Warrior? They could take a sword that many DMs would say is hard to sell, convert it into a +1 Orc-Bane sword, and sell it likely quite easily, making 3000g where they may have not had much chance of profit at all.
I'm playing devils advocate here, I love things that give the PCs options, and I love magic item tinkering as well. But I can see a wide potential for abuse, as your proposal currently stands.
Basically I concur, as proposed it seems open to abuse. That said, I would really welcome some rules to remove enchantments. Our Age of Worms group is getting alot of impossible or hard to sell/use items. It would be really nice if we could eg. simply remove the unholy enchantment out of an Unholy Greatsword +4 (or reverse it into a holy or axiomatic weapon with an elaborate ritual?).
Removing a property could be done with investing the time but not(or only a fraction of) the money it would have taken to apply this enchantement it it was the last added to the item. Edit: Since time is an expensive resource too a caster which double or triple the needed caster level could just rip it out in hours instead of days.
I still see some exploitability at the moment, but personal life issues have made me cranky, so I'll refrain from comment on the possibility it may be merely my current mood looking for things to complain about.
That said, your comments have helped with some of it. Now that I understand the math, it actually is technically more money saving than I first envisioned, but disregarding that, I can't help but agree with your comments regarding less stress on wealth balance being a good thing.
Alternate versions perhaps? Instead of an item creation feat, a spell with scaling power? Personally, I wouldnt mind seeing a large degree of spells keyed exclusively towards magic item creation and enhancement.
Also, I've always liked the idea of corrupting good items and redeeming evil ones, and while this would allow that, it almost makes it too easy. Just a thought.
The Black Bard wrote:
Alternate versions perhaps? Instead of an item creation feat, a spell with scaling power?
Also, I've always liked the idea of corrupting good items and redeeming evil ones, and while this would allow that, it almost makes it too easy. Just a thought.
What I meant by having the appropriate item creation feat was that a character with Forge Ring would be able to alter existing rings, Craft Wondrous Item would be able to alter wondrous items, etc.
IF it is too easy, then an additional time cost or changing the time cost to, say, half the crafting time of the new item might curb it further.
The total time spent crafting should still be lower than crafting from scratch though, since you're starting with magic to produce new magic.
The beauty of this is that it won't change stat blocks and will provide a good mechanic for explaining how an item can be redeemed or corrupted. It enhances gameplay balance and story-telling potential without straining baclwards compatibility.
The challenge comes when the forces of darkness attempt to stop you halfway in the process of turning a powerful unholy weapon into a powerful holy weapon. That would make for great adventure meat.
P.S. A reminder that the old item's cost has to equal or exceed the cost of the new item, meaning the amount saved may not be very large. This requirement prevents the outright abuse of cheap item farming. Proper wealth distribution by the DM prevents other types of abuse, made easier since the DM worries less about what is found by the PCs.
As long as the DM doesn't go Monty Hall crazy, the PCs shouldn't really be able to abuse this to gain game unbalancing wealth.
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