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Looking through some of my Pathfinder stuff (such as Elves of Golarion), I noticed that some NPCs use the Archmage PRC. I know that this PRC was not re-developed with Pathfinder because changes to the Wizard class made it seem a sub-prime choice.
I feel that the Archmage and the Heirophant need the pathfinder treatment, if only for backwards compatibility issues. Both of these PRCs have seen extensive use in 3.0/3.5 products due to being made OGL. Without an update (or at least an acknowledgment), most of these will need further conversion. And while neither may truly need "changed", they will need to be available after the 3.0/3.5 DMG becomes increasingly unavailable.
Just my thoughts.
eh use them as is...all treatment they need is BAB=HD. other then that no need to change anything.
The PF cleric and wizard classes are ment to fill the roles that them two PRC do however
Since the Archmage and Hierophant are OGL and in the SRD, it isn't super hard to find them, even once the DMG becomes difficult to find. It's not the best solution, but it isn't an imperative that it be updated beyond the standard guidelines.
The PF cleric and wizard classes are ment to fill the roles that them two PRC do however
Not to pick on seeker, I've seen this said a couple times and have some comments on this.
The abilities granted by the Prestige Classes are not available to the Pathfinder Wizard or Cleric.
While you do get something in it's place (20th level ability, etc), you are still not getting access to specific things that many archmage builds would have had.
It has been suggested that new feats be created (possibly "Archmage Feats" and such to keep the theme going) to bring these abilities back.
Take this one, for example:
Arcane Fire (Archmage Feat)
Prerequisites: Ability to cast 7th-level arcane spells, knowledge of 5th-level or higher spells from at least five schools, Knowledge Arcana 13 ranks
Benefits: You gain the ability to change arcane spell energy into arcane fire, manifesting it as a bolt of raw magical energy. The bolt is a ranged touch attack with long range (400 feet + 40 feet/level of archmage) that deals 1d6 points of damage per Archmage feat (including this one) plus 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell used to create the effect.
Special: To use this ability you must have a 7th level spell slot held in reserve (as if memorized, but without a spell) in order to use this ability. You may determine if this slot is held during normal memorization of spells.
A wizard can choose this feat as one of his class bonus feats.
This would keep the player in the class, and keep the "Wizard" class as an "Archmage". It would also give the spellcasting players more options for feats. By those end levels, the feat choices are usually getting pretty thin.
It does amuse me the Them 2 was made for one setting and adapted to others...Maybe its just me but that always felt just added on without the setting flavor to go with em
But yeah there powers fit feats pretty well
Not to pick on seeker, I've seen this said a couple times and have some comments on this.
The abilities granted by the Prestige Classes are not available to the Pathfinder Wizard or Cleric.
Heh it's all good...the point is not the build but the fact ya might as well take the PRC as it was kinda a no brainier.
They have moved the need to have to have this or that PRC to be complete class...as really this PRC mostly told ya your not a "real" wizard without it.
I would give them full school progression obviously.
The PF cleric and wizard classes are ment to fill the roles that them two PRC do howeverNot to pick on seeker, I've seen this said a couple times and have some comments on this.
The abilities granted by the Prestige Classes are not available to the Pathfinder Wizard or Cleric.
While you do get something in it's place (20th level ability, etc), you are still not getting access to specific things that many archmage builds would have had.
It has been suggested that new feats be created (possibly "Archmage Feats" and such to keep the theme going) to bring these abilities back.
Take this one, for example:
Arcane Fire (Archmage Feat)
Prerequisites: Ability to cast 7th-level arcane spells, knowledge of 5th-level or higher spells from at least five schools, Knowledge Arcana 13 ranks
Benefits: You gain the ability to change arcane spell energy into arcane fire, manifesting it as a bolt of raw magical energy. The bolt is a ranged touch attack with long range (400 feet + 40 feet/level of archmage) that deals 1d6 points of damage per Archmage feat (including this one) plus 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell used to create the effect.
Special: To use this ability you must have a 7th level spell slot held in reserve (as if memorized, but without a spell) in order to use this ability. You may determine if this slot is held during normal memorization of spells.
A wizard can choose this feat as one of his class bonus feats.
This would keep the player in the class, and...
If you make the feats free then sure I can go with this. I HATE it when people keep trying to reduce these to feats. A wizard is not a fighter and does not have the feats to spar even with you getting one ever odd numbered level.
Actually, Wizards get feats as part of their class levels, every 5 levels remember? In fact.. I've heard the complaint that in core rules, Wizards start wondering what to pick for their feats at later levels because they lack the options.
However, this was my suggestion simply as a fix if they intend to write out the PrC option completely. I'd be fine with renaming the class whatever you want, and let the caster pick the PrC to get these options... but that seems to be against what people wanted (the argument being that it made it seem like it was a necessary PrC, instead of an alternative).
I would give them full school progression obviously.
Why? Just to make sure that Archmage was a 'No brainer' PrC again?
I've never ran out of things I've wanted to spend my feats on with my wizards, however I think just adding in the archmage, completely as is now would work fine. If it doesn't increase school powers I would probably still take it, and the HD drop seems like a fair exchange for such a versitial class (besides not all PrC's have to, or should follow the BAB=HD rule).
In a way several of the features of the Archmage are available:
Energy Subsitution Metamagic feat
Reach Spell Metamagic feat
Spell-like abilities (class feature of being a wizard)
The ones that aren't there already are:
Spell Fire
Spell Power
Master of Counterspelling (probably would be a good feat as is, prerequisite improved counterspell)
Master of Shaping (another possible metamagic feat, just slap a + 1 spell level on it).
I prefer the feat idea. They would be more Feat choices for high-level spellcasters.
Plus, Archmages (and Hierophants) are exactly the wrong type of PrC. For me, the Archmage is a title for a powerful spellcaster, it's stuff that should be open in general to spellcasters rather than force them to fulfill the entry requirements for the PrC and forego their other training.
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I prefer the feat idea. They would be more Feat choices for high-level spellcasters.
Plus, Archmages (and Hierophants) are exactly the wrong type of PrC. For me, the Archmage is a title for a powerful spellcaster, it's stuff that should be open in general to spellcasters rather than force them to fulfill the entry requirements for the PrC and forego their other training.
Adding similar pre-reqs in terms of caster level and skill ranks would also keep players from taking them too early and maintain some of the feel of the archmage's requirements. Having these as feats allows someone to be both a 20th level wizard and an archmage, without sacrificing their school powers. Since Karzoug has extra feats to spend now that they're given every other level, I bet he could be all transmuter with archmage feats with no problem. The archmage feats would keep him challenging even for a party of the same level as his CR when added to his school powers.
I prefer the feat idea. They would be more Feat choices for high-level spellcasters.
Plus, Archmages (and Hierophants) are exactly the wrong type of PrC. For me, the Archmage is a title for a powerful spellcaster, it's stuff that should be open in general to spellcasters rather than force them to fulfill the entry requirements for the PrC and forego their other training.
Well I think at the time 3.0 and 3.5 were first out they were fine. They provided things that the higher level mages should have had anyways but were not available through other means at the time.
I don't want the requirements too be too high though. After all Archmage stuff becomes available at 14th level for wizards and I think that's a good place to start. It kind of bores and annoys me when all the 'cool' stuff is saved for the very last book of a 6 book series, or all the neat tricks are top loaded when PC's rarely make it to those levels. I understand the powerful stuff needs to be high but that doesn't mean everything has to be.
I don't propose to make them available only to near-epic characters. I'd say that around the time you can cast 6th-level spells, you're ready for the big stuff.
I would give them full school progression obviously.Why? Just to make sure that Archmage was a 'No brainer' PrC again?
You know you make a good point, how about 1/2 school or bloodline progression?
You know you make a good point, how about 1/2 school or bloodline progression?I would give them full school progression obviously.Why? Just to make sure that Archmage was a 'No brainer' PrC again?
Why not just state that the archmage stacks, but only for powers already gained.
So the archmage will add on for their level 1 and level 8 school powers (and caster level of spell abilities at the other levels) but will not grant the capstone powers, or new spell abilities.
Then allow the choice of the archmage powers without futher spell lose (since they've been "paid" for with the capstone and the higher spell abilities).
You know you make a good point, how about 1/2 school or bloodline progression?I would give them full school progression obviously.Why? Just to make sure that Archmage was a 'No brainer' PrC again?Why not just state that the archmage stacks, but only for powers already gained.
So the archmage will add on for their level 1 and level 8 school powers (and caster level of spell abilities at the other levels) but will not grant the capstone powers, or new spell abilities.
Then allow the choice of the archmage powers without futher spell lose (since they've been "paid" for with the capstone and the higher spell abilities).
I don't play casters very often so yeah, that sounds better.
Why not just state that the archmage stacks, but only for powers already gained.
So the archmage will add on for their level 1 and level 8 school powers (and caster level of spell abilities at the other levels) but will not grant the capstone powers, or new spell abilities.
Then allow the choice of the archmage powers without futher spell lose (since they've been "paid" for with the capstone and the higher spell abilities).
That is perfectly reasonable. (And in fact can be implemented by makign sure School/Bloodline powers use caster level, but getting new powers requires class level. Course, that would apply to all PrCs, not just Archmage.)
I would still say that an Archmage should pay the spell slots for their powers. After all they can still get those capstone abilities after level 20 assuming the game goes there.
I never liked the 'spell slot' tax of Archmages (Hierophants are even worse, their spell progression doesn't even grow). As for the Capstone abilities, we currently don't know what is the future of the Epic Rules in Pathfinder; perhaps it will be more or less (but better...) than the actual Epic Rules, so a Wizard can still complete his 20-level progression and take the Capstone; perhaps it will be a completely different system, and a character will not be able to take more levels in Core classes anymore.
Overall, the idea of 'no more Class powers, but improve existing ones' seems the most balanced, IMHO.
Just my 2c.
If you make the feats free then sure I can go with this. I HATE it when people keep trying to reduce these to feats. A wizard is not a fighter and does not have the feats to spar even with you getting one ever odd numbered level.
But you would be saving the feats required to enter the Archmage class in the first place (e.g. Skill Focus [Spellcraft]).
(Course, that would apply to all PrCs, not just Archmage.)
The more I think about this the better an idea I think it is, because it keeps EXISTING powers from becoming useless, but still restricts access to NEW powers.
(Course, that would apply to all PrCs, not just Archmage.)The more I think about this the better an idea I think it is, because it keeps EXISTING powers from becoming useless, but still restricts access to NEW powers.
This is the way we did it in our RotRL campaign before the beta rules for prestige classes came out (ok we still did it afterwards, but that was at least in part to prevent confusion).
What makes me stop and think on the idea more was when a new player asked if the fighter keeps getting his Armor Training based on his BAB as a sort of "caster level" for fighters, since he already had that ability.
If you make the feats free then sure I can go with this. I HATE it when people keep trying to reduce these to feats. A wizard is not a fighter and does not have the feats to spar even with you getting one ever odd numbered level.But you would be saving the feats required to enter the Archmage class in the first place (e.g. Skill Focus [Spellcraft]).
What do you think the prereques. for the feast would include....