Director of Games
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Welcome to the twelfth stage of the playtest for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. We have now wrapped up the first eleven stages of the playtest, which took a look at the Ability Scores, Races, Skills, Feats, Prestige Classes Equipment, Combat, Spells, Additional Rules, and all of the base classes. Over the next two weeks, I would like to take a look at issues dealing with high level play. Unlike previous playtests, this one deals with the book as a whole, but only as it pertains to high level play. While thoughts and ideas are interesting to this playtest, actual play experience, using the rules in the Beta will be vital and you should mention such experience in your posts. For the purposes of this playtest, I have a few specific scenarios in mind, as noted below. I also have a few rules proposals that I would like to see explored. When discussing topics in this playtest, start your thread title out with the general topic, followed by the issue you want to discuss. For example, if you wanted to talk about the a high level fighter combinations, your thread subject might read: Fighters - Looking at High Level Feats
Here are a few scenarios to kick off the discussion. Each encounter gives the monsters and a basic environment. Each also includes the rounds of prep the PCs get before the combat begins, the monster gets the same amount of time to cast spells or use special abilities. Try to run the monster in the spirit of its abilities (don't get too clever and make the combat harder than it needs to be). The PCs can be of any level. Please make sure to list the basic composition of your group and whether or not the characters are ONLY using options from the Beta (although other tests will be useful as well, I would like to get some diversity here in build options). What I am interested in is your overall experience with the encounter, how long it took (rounds and real time), a rough percentage of resources exploited, and any other problems or observations. I would also be interested in hearing about some groups that face these encounters one hour after a previous encounter on this list (some, but not all, I would like to hear about fresh groups from many of these). Each of these encounters uses monsters from the 3.5 SRD.
- Scenario 1 (EL 16): Four Purple Worms in a cavern with a 20 foot tall roof. Scatter pillars about but leave the space open enough for the worms to maneuver. 1 round of preparation.
- Scenario 2 (EL 16): Eight Fire Giants in a stone fortress with 10 foot wide corridors around a central chamber. There are some fire pits in the main chamber that the giants can exploit. The ceilings are 15 foot high. 2 rounds of preparation.
- Scenario 3 (EL 16): A Horned Devil on top of a pillar of rock that is 50 feet across. If the horned devil can summon 2 barbed devils with a 100% chance of success, but not any other monsters. 2 rounds of preparation.
- Scenario 4 (EL 16): An old black dragon in the middle of a swamp. The ground is all difficult terrain except for a few hills. There are a pair of pools that the dragon can hide in. Scatter some dying trees about. 5 rounds of preparation.
- Scenario 5 (EL 18): An 11th level human lich with a pair of iron golem minions. This encounter takes place is a large, vaulted chamber, with balconies on the walls (where the lich starts). There is a large pit in the center of this room that drops 100 feet. The iron golems start on opposite sides. 3 rounds of preparation.
In addition to these scenarios, I would also like to take a look at the following issues specifically.
- How do high level characters compare to one another? There are some inequities when facing one another, but do the classes still successfully fill a role when played as part of a group? Which classes need better high level abilities and what might they be within theme?
- How does the game change if there is a limit to the number of "buff" spells that an individual character can benefit from? How does this affect the game if the limit is 3, 5, or a number equal to 1 per two or four levels.
- With the changes to many of the high level spells to massive damage dealers, how does this impact fights against high HP monsters. Does this give the melee classes a better role in a high level fight.
I want to note that this can be a very contentious discussion and there is no perfectly "right" answer. Over many of the previous playtests, I have seen arguments about the powers of some classes from all sides. Lets try to remember that not everyones experience is the same, but we are all working toward the same goal.
I look forward to reading your thoughts.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I just want to say that as someone who is currently running a high level campaign, I'm glad to see this board available.
No experience with High Level Pathfinder RPG play yet - sorry! In the absence of high level PFRPG experience, is it worthwhile to offer suggestions based on high level 3.5E experience too, or is it the case that you already have enough of that that you don't need any more? Regardless, I understand that high level PFRPG experience would be more useful for you, but if that is lacking....
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Director of Games
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No experience with High Level Pathfinder RPG play yet - sorry! In the absence of high level PFRPG experience, is it worthwhile to offer suggestions based on high level 3.5E experience too, or is it the case that you already have enough of that that you don't need any more? Regardless, I understand that high level PFRPG experience would be more useful for you, but if that is lacking....
I am pretty familiar with the issues with 3.5 high level play, although some of them may not have been addressed (and some might not be able to be addressed in the scope of this work).
If you think it still has relevance, then I would like to hear it, but most of it is well trodden ground.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Regarding Scenario 3: Wherein is that 50' across pillar situated? Otherwise, it comes across more along the lines of "you materialize inside a 50' x 50' pit with a horned devil 'here' and your preparations done."
Regarding Scenario 3: Wherein is that 50' across pillar situated? Otherwise, it comes across more along the lines of "you materialize inside a 50' x 50' pit with a horned devil 'here' and your preparations done."
I'm seeing a Soul Caliberesque arena 50' in diameter and a death drop on the outer edge (pcs have just climbed over lip, 6 seconds before the devil drops out of the sky).
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Director of Games
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Regarding Scenario 3: Wherein is that 50' across pillar situated? Otherwise, it comes across more along the lines of "you materialize inside a 50' x 50' pit with a horned devil 'here' and your preparations done."
The pillar is in the middle of some mountains, but not near any other peaks. I would assume for all of these that the PCs "appear" at an appropriate spot in the combat area, with their rounds of prep already complete.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I've just created a post here with some pre-made high-level characters for all us who want to test the challenges posted above (and has no high-level character to use at the moment).
Hope this can be of some use.
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Watch the furious maelstrom of Scenario #3 on this THREAD
(I'm running Grumble Grog and Elmora...many thanks to Sleepy for running these high level tests.)