RE: Performance testers requested.
Hi all, I have been experimenting with a new type of Excel character sheet generation for Pathfinder. I have finished the core structure with all the Beta rules.
I will be adding other items over time (Prestige Classes and feat descriptions from the Campaign Setting book, and material from the Adventure Paths). The bulk of the further development I plan to do when the Pathfinder game is released later this year. (I likely won't be implementing any of the "design focus" options, nor will I be supporting any non-Pathfinder material).
My main goal was to develop a very user friendly, easily customizable sheet, with few worksheet tabs to flip between.
Right now I am looking for some people to help test the performance of the sheet. I designed the sheet on a slow computer system, and since the sheet consists of a multitude of overlapping forumlas, I find that some selections take a while to calculate across the sheets. The sheet also takes quite awhile to load.
Here's the information I would like to know from anyone willing to test this (It would be best if you have Excel 2002 or later):
1. Did you find the character creation process to be quick?
2. Did you find the character creation process to be easy / intuitive?
3. Did you notice any really obvious / glaring errors?
4. Suggestions?
(Note: I'm not really in "beta test" mode yet for this sheet, but I believe I have worked out most of the bugs. As per #3, if there are any glaring errors though, I would like to know about them.)
Thanks.
I built one myself (PFRPG_CS_v_B_0_4_1.xls), but have the project on hold until the final rules are out. I'll give this one a good run-through. My first thought is wow, this thing's huge. That you already know, however, from the performance statements above.
RE: Performance testers requested.
Nice looking sheet. I DL'ed it and I will try it out. I was going to use if for my current pc but damn, no Druid class.
37.1MB?
Dude, what did you put in?
Regards,
Ruemere
Yeah, that's WAY too huge! I'll take a look and let you know if there's some shortcuts.
This does not work with Open Office, right?
-- david
Papa.DRB
I'll say this: Character Generators are best left to databases. They're huge and extremely complex. That said, they can be created in Excel. Heck, I've done my share in Excel and HTML (with VBScript running the output).
I've only looked at the basics of your table structures, so I'm far from qualified to judge anything. I didn't even look at the tabs that you had readily viewable as I was more interested in the size of the file than it's overall appearance. Take from this what you will.
Just some food for thought.
It looks like you have some lockdown measures. The only issue I have is that I can't CTRL+PGDWN to go through the tabs. I do this all the time as I'm not a "clicker".
You have a LOT of formulas. While I'm sure that they're needed I believe that some of them can be removed.
There is also a lot of text. Something to be considered is to break down your tables into smaller tables that will reference. Do you lookups on the pages that relate. For example, on Sheet Classes_DATA, columns B and C could probably be removed, update the formulas/cells calculate the formula instead. What will free up about 1200 formulas that probably aren't needed.
Consider looking into VBA. Store information in the tables after a change is made. If a "mistake" is made, it can be easily removed by looping through the information and deleting the line. The new value would replace it.
When I made my last generator, I used VBA to populate the Character Sheet. It's relatively easy and would also cut out a lot of your lookup tables.
One last thing on VBA, think about a "Load Character" feature. It's something that everyone uses. If I have 10 characters, I'd hate to have 350 MB worth of these files on my hard drive just to level them up.
I, personally, am against images in my applications (Excel and Access). While I understand the need for the logo, consider alternate options. If you still keep the logo, make sure it's the lowest resolution you can afford while it still looks good. I can't remove the logo so I don't know how it affects the overall size of the file.
Referencing other areas. Try to avoid repeating information. Having the word "Battleaxe" in 5 different locations is going to lead to bloat. I'll give an example. On the Dieties_DATA sheet, Create a table somewhere for Alignments (UniqueID, Long Name, Short Name). Add a column to your Weapons/Arms table and have a numeric before it. In columns C and E-I, assign the number of the Alignment. While this is small, you're cutting off up to 6 characters per entry. Now, think of this for Spells and Equipment...
I just used this to create a Dwarf Ranger 1 and really like it. It worked perfectly, except that there is a #value! error on character sheet two under class abilities/special abilites/feats - I was hoping to have a list of racial and class features automatically.
I noticed a lot of these on the _DATA pages as well.
Also, I could not enter text into "Additional info" under weapons.
Finally, I realized you cannot add any notes to the notes pages that begin with a number or a "+" sign because Excel tries to interpret those as calculations- no big deal.
I think that changing these fields to TEXT will take care of this. However, the sheet is pretty well locked down so it will have to come from the author.
Nice looking sheet. I DL'ed it and I will try it out. I was going to use if for my current pc but damn, no Druid class.
Druid class is there (as they all are)... I'm guessing that you didn't change the default alignment which is Lawful Good. As soon as you change it to a neutral alignment (or select the Class Alignment overide option) the druid will appear as a selectable class.
Kor, if you find this useful, go ahead and scavenge what you need.
http://www.geocities.com/todd_dewitt274/DnDUserForm.zip
It's a 3.0 character creator that I never did finish. Click on the button in the upper left corner, fill in as needed. There is a random generator that you can use as well. Click the "Finish" button to bring to the end. It will generate the Stat Block correctly, but I never finished putting the values into the Character Sheet.
I just used this to create a Dwarf Ranger 1 and really like it. It worked perfectly, except that there is a #value! error on character sheet two under class abilities/special abilites/feats - I was hoping to have a list of racial and class features automatically.
I have fixed this now, thanks for pointing it out.
The only place I could find to select a feat was on the classes page next to bonus feat 1. I selected overhand chop, which was factored into my attack bonus for a waraxe.
Feats are selected on the "Levels" page. You should see listed under the "Feature Type" column: "Level 1 bonus feat (Any)". Next to it in the "Feature Selection" column there should be a light yellow box with a drop down of feats. (If there is no yellow box, its because you are using an earlier version of Excel before Excel 2002. Prior versions of Excel had very limited colors and do not contain the light yellow color I used for highlighing user entries).
However, could I suggest a separate feats worksheet, just like you have a skills worksheet.
Although I had thought about doing that originally, I wanted to make a sheet with as few "tabs" as possible. I did like how Heroforge had all the pre-requisites listed out next to the feats, but alas I decided to incroporate the feat selections into the "level" features tab. This sheet does check for feat pre-requisites, but my focus was to make this sheet a suppliment to the rule book -- so for those that want to view what the pre-requisites of each feat, they will have to use a rule book.
Also, I could not enter text into "Additional info" under weapons.
This works fine for me. The field is "unlocked" and it seems to accept text just fine. I now changed this to a "text" field, so please give it another try.
Finally, I realized you cannot add any notes to the notes pages that begin with a number or a "+" sign because Excel tries to interpret those as calculations- no big deal.
Good suggestion, I have made the required change.
I will be uploading the fixed version soon. It will show as; (Beta Test Sheet - v.3) on the first "options" tab.
Thanks for taking a look at the sheet, and for your reply.
37.1MB?
Dude, what did you put in?
Regards,
Ruemere
I have designed the sheet to make it really easy to drop in new classes and such in the future. So the good news is, that the sheet size shouldn't grow much larger, as all the formulas are there. Although the sheet is twice as large as Heroforge, I really don't see any way at this time to trim this down.
This does not work with Open Office, right?
-- david
Papa.DRB
Sorry, I'm not familiar with Open Office so I can't answer your question.
I think that changing these fields to TEXT will take care of this. However, the sheet is pretty well locked down so it will have to come from the author.
These fields will be changed to "text" on my updated version. Although I have protected the sheet, there is no password, so anyone can unprotect the sheet and poke around with it.
The new version is now uploaded (v.3). The download link on the first post will link you to the new version.
This does not work with Open Office, right?
-- david
Papa.DRBSorry, I'm not familiar with Open Office so I can't answer your question.
Open Office is supposed to work with all Microsoft Office files, so it should work, although I must add that I've never used Open.
Nice looking sheet. I DL'ed it and I will try it out. I was going to use if for my current pc but damn, no Druid class.Druid class is there (as they all are)... I'm guessing that you didn't change the default alignment which is Lawful Good. As soon as you change it to a neutral alignment (or select the Class Alignment overide option) the druid will appear as a selectable class.
Aha, so there it is. Thanks.
This does not work with Open Office, right?
-- david
Papa.DRB
While I was able to open the file in open office it took a lot longer to load then excel and various functions would not work properly. I definitely will be using excel for this.
Worked and looked great, but it runs too slow to be of a practical use.
Also, if I could vote for a feature it would be stat blocks. So few character generators have them, but as a DM it so useful to have.
If you would be interested, TOS+ (read the What is TOS+ topic) is a product (Excel Workbook) which is already compatible with the PF Beta Rules. It has been supporting D&D3.5 since 2003 and it is extremely powerful and customizable. It integrates the Stacking Rules automatically, and can be used dynamically in-game (Example: type "haste" to get the effects of a Haste Spell on the fly!)
TOS+ is a viable option for those looking for a top notch product for Microsoft Excel (sorry the other spreadsheet apps don't work with it).
TOS+ is discussed here on these forums.
Richard "RiTz21" Taillon
Creator of The Only Sheet
http://theonlysheet.com
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Finally, I realized you cannot add any notes to the notes pages that begin with a number or a "+" sign because Excel tries to interpret those as calculations- no big deal.
Any suggestions?
Thanks!
This is the same in any spreadsheet. If you add a "'" before the number or the plus sign the spreadsheet will read it as text rather than a numerical value. The "'" will be invisible once you are done editing the cell.
According to the Pathfinder Beta rules:
Character’s who take levels in their favored class can also chose to
gain 1 additional skill point.
[sic]
I don't see your spreadsheet calculating in this bonus skill point.
Funny, I've built such a thing for use here at Paizo. :)
I don't see your spreadsheet calculating in this bonus skill point.
This is in the sheet, on the Classes section. (Its sort of backwards, once you select your favored class on the Levels sheet, then go back to the Classes sheet and the right most column will now allow you to select either +1 HP or skill point.
Funny, I've built such a thing for use here at Paizo. :)
Is that just a personal project, or is it possible that it might be a supporting product in the future?
I have now made some updates to the sheet. (version 4)
- the performance issues and file size are unavoidable at this time. It's actually going to require a complete re-design on the data tables, but I think I may be able to improve this before the official release.
- many little fixes were done (toughness properly adding in extra HP, barbarian showing up as a selectable class, skill points properly adjusting for AC penalty, Ability points adjusted for human & half-elf ability increase selection, and a few others)
I have now made some updates to the sheet. (version 4)
- the performance issues and file size are unavoidable at this time. It's actually going to require a complete re-design on the data tables, but I think I may be able to improve this before the official release.
- many little fixes were done (toughness properly adding in extra HP, barbarian showing up as a selectable class, skill points properly adjusting for AC penalty, Ability points adjusted for human & half-elf ability increase selection, and a few others)
Any chance at a stat block? :)
If you would be interested, TOS+ (read the What is TOS+ topic) is a product (Excel Workbook) which is already compatible with the PF Beta Rules.
Hrmm... this just seems to me that you have hijacked this thread to try to advertise your product?
Fortunately there are many members in the roleplaying community who have the time, skills and dedication available to create useful game aids for free.
Having spent months of my time slapping together my spreadsheet and recognizing the time ahead that will be required to maintain it, I can certainly understand the desire to be compensated for one's time. However, I do so for the love of the game and to show my appreciation to the designers who got us here. I usually find community projects like Heroforge and sCoreGen to be far superior to commerical products (except for those created by the publishers themselves).
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If you would be interested, TOS+ (read the What is TOS+ topic) is a product (Excel Workbook) which is already compatible with the PF Beta Rules.Hrmm... this just seems to me that you have hijacked this thread to try to advertise your product?
Fortunately there are many members in the roleplaying community who have the time, skills and dedication available to create useful game aids for free.
Having spent months of my time slapping together my spreadsheet and recognizing the time ahead that will be required to maintain it, I can certainly understand the desire to be compensated for one's time. However, I do so for the love of the game and to show my appreciation to the designers who got us here. I usually find community projects like Heroforge and sCoreGen to be far superior to commerical products (except for those created by the publishers themselves).
On the thread jacking subject the folks over here: http://chargen.motime.com/ have made a damn fine (free) pathfinder spreadsheet. I guess they are sCoreGen?
Well, mine right now is intended for getting the Bestiary monsters processed. In the future it's something I'd like to see all of our freelancers use. Whether or not it's something we post to the public is not my call. I wouldn't mind if we did, though.
It's certainly not pretty enough for public consumption at this point. :p
Well, mine right now is intended for getting the Bestiary monsters processed. In the future it's something I'd like to see all of our freelancers use. Whether or not it's something we post to the public is not my call. I wouldn't mind if we did, though.
It's certainly not pretty enough for public consumption at this point. :p
Well, if the code in my post helps, feel free to take what you want. It's crappy old code, but still pretty worthy. I know I can do better now, but it would require a database : )
Any chance at a stat block? :)
Sure I will add this on, I know this can be very helpful to DM's. I'll add it on next week.
Sure I will add this on, I know this can be very helpful to DM's. I'll add it on next week.Any chance at a stat block? :)
It might make your life easier to adapt the sCoreGen method, changing out your references for the ones used there. It has the advantage that for one, it's already coded. It's also set up to handle different markup languages and even make it relatively easy to add new ones. Feel free to gank whatever you need and modify it to suit your own design goals.
Hrmm... this just seems to me that you have hijacked this thread to try to advertise your product?
I am simply advising you of what already exists out there, in the off-chance you had not known about it. And since your work is Free, this information should not affect your finances. When I first started my character sheet project, I did a search to see what was available - Had I found a product that did what I wanted, then I would have saved myself quite a boatload of work...
Fortunately there are many members in the roleplaying community who have the time, skills and dedication available to create useful game aids for free.
Having spent months of my time slapping together my spreadsheet and recognizing the time ahead that will be required to maintain it, I can certainly understand the desire to be compensated for one's time. However, I do so for the love of the game and to show my appreciation to the designers who got us here. I usually find community projects like Heroforge and sCoreGen to be far superior to commercial products (except for those created by the publishers themselves).
Yes, it is very fortunate that people give their time and skills to the community. That is essential to help the community grow and evolve.
As for doing this for the love of the game, that is exactly what I have been doing since 2003. I don't believe you can create stuff in the RPG field unless you do it for the love of it.
Jobless (thanks to post-911 layoffs), I invested my time and efforts in creating the best automated Character Sheet I could, because I fell in love with D&D. The other character sheets out there were too slow & too complex for my tastes.
Being without revenues (and with a wife & kids to support) I though it more than fair to gain some measure of payment for all these years of effort. And the asking price of my product (TOS+) is ridiculously low (it comes to $1.88 CAN per months, which is even less in USD). This barely helps me to keep financially afloat.
Still, some people will find $1.88 CAN too costly - which I can certainly understand when one does not have an employment or relies on Food Stamps. Free will always be attractive (incidentally, TOS FREE, which is a less powerful version of TOS+, is.. well free)
Anyways, I gotta go find a Job.
RITz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com