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I've playtested PFRPG and Pathfinder Society) a few times at my FLGS, and along with some other GM's have worked diligently to keep the buzz and interest in the game at a high level.
Last night the owner of my FLGS shared with me some of the troubles he's having with the game. Apparently the interest that we've helped to generate in our area continues to bring in a flood of requests for the book that he can't support. His distributor has also removed it from their catalog.
I explained that the pdf was available for free, that only a limited number of copies of the book were printed because its a play-test, and that the Beta book was at a price point where Paizo covered little more than cost.
He understood all that but was adamant that a number of players (20-30 in his estimate)just don't want to play from a pdf. In his opinion, the dis-satisfaction that he is seeing from some 4E players is making them look elsewhere for their gaming fix, and that their first choice appears to be Pathfinder. But without a book to sell, that interest is dampened, and he is now pushing them towards White Wolf and other games.
I'm a little bummed out that our efforts to push Pathfinder are being hurt by the lack of books, but I don't see any easy solution.
Has anyone seen or experienced this? With another 8 months to go before the game is published, do you think the lack of books is hurting interest in the game?
Any chance of a short re-print? i doubt it but I promised that I would ask the question.
I do admit that the lack of a core rulebook is one of the major things keeping my group from switching to Pathfinder. I also know that my own initial excitement over Pathfinder has waned a little because they haven't yet released a book. However, keep in mind that 4E was in development for three years before it got published. Pathfinder has only been under development for about half that time. I know we're all frothing at the mouth for Pathfinder, but I'm pretty sure our patience will ultimately be worth it.
Creative Director
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We've always known that there would be a lull between the beta and the final release, but honestly, I think that'll be okay. I've mentioned this on another thread, but the reason we're not going to publicly release much information about the final product is precisely because of this; we want to build anticipation for the book's final release in August. We'll also be doing other marketing stunts to build interest again as well, not least of which is the fact that all of our products will be switching over to use the PF RPG rules as the native rules.
In any event, it's important to remember that the beta is a beta, and it's not intended to be a final release. Once the final rules are out, I'd not be disappointed if all the betas self-destructed, in fact. :-)
In any case, unless you're playtesting, the time is honestly not right at this point to switch to the new rules. We're still printing everything using the 3.5 rules for that precise reason.
I wonder if the real problem for the store owner is that he can't sell the pdf, if there was a book, he could sell that.
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I think that having a free pdf for the alpha/beta rules was brilliant.
It got a lot of people interested in the product and the force multiplier from the gargantuan amout of feedback and playtesting really sped up development. All it cost Paizo (we love you Paizogolem!) was the bandwidth the forums take up. That's good marketing!
Of course, I could be mad... so very mad.
The PDFs do have a problem: It costs money to print them. And I know that with my equipment, I probably couldn't print it in the original size, in colour, and be better off than what I paid for my Beta Print Edition. I'd pay a bit more, and the paper would not be quite as nice, and the binding would probably consist of holes punched through and put in a folder, or maybe ring binding (it's hard to find thermo binder folders for that size).
I have no idea what it would cost to get the PDF to a decent copy shop to have it printed and bound, but I suspect that they couldn't really beat the Beta price.
Does anyone know a decent service for that, and what you can expect to pay for it?
The PDFs do have a problem: It costs money to print them. And I know that with my equipment, I probably couldn't print it in the original size, in colour, and be better off than what I paid for my Beta Print Edition. I'd pay a bit more, and the paper would not be quite as nice, and the binding would probably consist of holes punched through and put in a folder, or maybe ring binding (it's hard to find thermo binder folders for that size).
I have no idea what it would cost to get the PDF to a decent copy shop to have it printed and bound, but I suspect that they couldn't really beat the Beta price.
Does anyone know a decent service for that, and what you can expect to pay for it?
Well, fortunately for me I used the printers at work after all the bosses went home, so for me it was pretty cheap. I even made 5 extra copies for all my players........Sorry, I had to rub it in. But to answer your question, no, I do not know of a service that would be any cheaper than what you would pay for the beta.
I have no idea what it would cost to get the PDF to a decent copy shop to have it printed and bound, but I suspect that they couldn't really beat the Beta price.
I had both the Alpha rules & the web enchancement bound at Kinko's and it was only around $3 each, not sure how that price would differ for a larger doc like the 400 page Beta.
However, like eirip, I did the printing at work so didn't have to pay for that.
FYI, earlier this week Amazon claimed to have copies of the Beta on sale for about $16.
The PDFs do have a problem: It costs money to print them. And I know that with my equipment, I probably couldn't print it in the original size, in colour, and be better off than what I paid for my Beta Print Edition. I'd pay a bit more, and the paper would not be quite as nice, and the binding would probably consist of holes punched through and put in a folder, or maybe ring binding (it's hard to find thermo binder folders for that size).
I have no idea what it would cost to get the PDF to a decent copy shop to have it printed and bound, but I suspect that they couldn't really beat the Beta price.
Does anyone know a decent service for that, and what you can expect to pay for it?
I bought a hard copy of the beta a my local game store, Source Comics & Games in St. Paul, MN (a shameless plug I know. I don't work for them, but they're really great guys).
BUT, I have a trick for printing long books and chapters from PDFs on the cheap when I need to... I keep an old 24-pin dot matrix printer and a box of tractor paper around. Printer ribbons cost about $2 apiece, and a box of 2500 sheets of paper is less than $30.
Inkjets are crazy expensive to print on, but using a dot-matrix setup reduces the cost to basically the price of the paper. It IS loud and takes a really long time, but the resolution is just as good as my HP Inkjet... Check your local thrift store, and you can likely find a good printer and parallel cable for less than $10.
BUT, I have a trick for printing long books and chapters from PDFs on the cheap when I need to... I keep an old 24-pin dot matrix printer and a box of tractor paper around. Printer ribbons cost about $2 apiece, and a box of 2500 sheets of paper is less than $30.Inkjets are crazy expensive to print on, but using a dot-matrix setup reduces the cost to basically the price of the paper. It IS loud and takes a really long time, but the resolution is just as good as my HP Inkjet... Check your local thrift store, and you can likely find a good printer and parallel cable for less than $10.
That's just B&W, though. You can do that quite cheap.
I have a colour laser printer. If the stated yield per toner cartridge and drum is correct, it costs me 3 (Euro) cents per page to print B&W, and 10 for colour. Add half a cent or so per sheet of paper, and you're good.
So I can print it for a decent price as B&W - which I did until my print edition showed up. I printed it two pages per sheet so I only had to print ~200 pages. But if I wanted anything as pretty as the print edition of the beta, I'd need to get some nice, paper, and print full size and full colour, and get it bound, and probably end up paying twice as much as I paid for the fully printed version.
By the way: amazon.com still has beta prints in stock!
That's just B&W, though. You can do that quite cheap.
That's true, but I don't find the B&W to be prohibitive.
But if I wanted anything as pretty as the print edition of the beta, I'd need to get some nice, paper, and print full size and full colour, and get it bound, and probably end up paying twice as much as I paid for the fully printed version.
Yeah, that would be an economy-of-scale problem... Maybe if you got some people together to go in on a bulk printing order..? But barring access to a fully outfitted bootleg print shop, you're probably right.
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The PDFs do have a problem: It costs money to print them. And I know that with my equipment, I probably couldn't print it in the original size, in colour, and be better off than what I paid for my Beta Print Edition. I'd pay a bit more, and the paper would not be quite as nice, and the binding would probably consist of holes punched through and put in a folder, or maybe ring binding (it's hard to find thermo binder folders for that size).
I have no idea what it would cost to get the PDF to a decent copy shop to have it printed and bound, but I suspect that they couldn't really beat the Beta price.
Does anyone know a decent service for that, and what you can expect to pay for it?
I took my Beta to Office Depot so I could have a book to make notes in. Cost about $25 for bw one sided paper. Sure you could get the Beta for $25, which I did. But no Books available means not much reason not to print the PDF. ANd I assume most of you are like me. No pen is touching MY book. But the print out is fine.
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BUT, I have a trick for printing long books and chapters from PDFs on the cheap when I need to... I keep an old 24-pin dot matrix printer and a box of tractor paper around. Printer ribbons cost about $2 apiece, and a box of 2500 sheets of paper is less than $30.Inkjets are crazy expensive to print on, but using a dot-matrix setup reduces the cost to basically the price of the paper. It IS loud and takes a really long time, but the resolution is just as good as my HP Inkjet... Check your local thrift store, and you can likely find a good printer and parallel cable for less than $10.
That's just B&W, though. You can do that quite cheap.
I have a colour laser printer. If the stated yield per toner cartridge and drum is correct, it costs me 3 (Euro) cents per page to print B&W, and 10 for colour. Add half a cent or so per sheet of paper, and you're good.
So I can print it for a decent price as B&W - which I did until my print edition showed up. I printed it two pages per sheet so I only had to print ~200 pages. But if I wanted anything as pretty as the print edition of the beta, I'd need to get some nice, paper, and print full size and full colour, and get it bound, and probably end up paying twice as much as I paid for the fully printed version.
By the way: amazon.com still has beta prints in stock!
I got kinkos to print my Alpha. It was $60 with the binding, but it was beautiful to play with at the table (and it seems more resilient than my D&D books), but I wouldn't do that with the 400+ page beta.
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Since refilled cartriges for my inkjet printer cost me less than 1 euro a piece, I simply printed out the whole beta and put the stuff in three binders. While certainly not as nice as the print version, it has the advantage that I was able to integrate the web enhancements this way.
@KaeYoss:
Ulisses should release the german translation of Pathfinder in a few months. Its limited to 500 copies and will probably use the rather strange german translation of d20 terms, but at least it would be a printed copy. It will cost 25 euro if I remember correctly.
@KaeYoss:
Ulisses should release the german translation of Pathfinder in a few months. Its limited to 500 copies and will probably use the rather strange german translation of d20 terms, but at least it would be a printed copy. It will cost 25 euro if I remember correctly.
I do have the print beta. I'm just talking about things in general, for those who cannot get a print version and are forced to get the PDF printed. I was curious how much that would cost if done by a shop.
I did print out a couple of books in pretty mode, though. I usually do that for RPG book that I can only get in PDF - both Books of Experimental Might weren't available in print at first, so I printed and bound the PDFs. And sometimes, the books are out of print, so you either have to print or get expensive copies on eBay.
I will probably download the German beta, but just out of curiousity, as German books are out of the question for me: D&D translations have a long history of suckage, and of course you have to wait until they're translated - if they're translated at all. I'm far too impatient and intolerant towards crap for all that. I am curious whether Ulisses will be able to do a better job at this than Amigo and F&S.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Has anyone seen or experienced this? With another 8 months to go before the game is published, do you think the lack of books is hurting interest in the game?
I have no doubt that there are plenty of gamers who won't play from a PDF, just as I have no doubt that there are plenty more who won't play anything that's labeled "playtest."
However, neither of these things are stopping new people from downloading the Beta PDF every week—more than 40,000 individuals have already downloaded the Pathfinder RPG from us, and I think we'll top 50,000 well before the finished game is released.
Has anyone seen or experienced this? With another 8 months to go before the game is published, do you think the lack of books is hurting interest in the game?I have no doubt that there are plenty of gamers who won't play from a PDF, just as I have no doubt that there are plenty more who won't play anything that's labeled "playtest."
However, neither of these things are stopping new people from downloading the Beta PDF every week—more than 40,000 individuals have already downloaded the Pathfinder RPG from us, and I think we'll top 50,000 well before the finished game is released.
When you say 40,000 individuals, do you mean 40,000 downloads or 40,000 accounts? I am asking, because some people might download the Beta more than once. I know I did! On the other hand, some groups might only use one downloaded copy to play - we do that in my group -only three of us have actually downloaded the copy even though my group has 10 players (split between various campaigns, some people in multiple campaigns), for example, so it may even out.
On another note, it just occured to me that giving these other people copies of the Beta PDF might not be legal. This has not struck me until now, since the Beta PDF is free, so I automatically assumed that it would be OK, but now I am having some doubts. If it is not OK, I can ask the people to delete the copies they got from those who downloaded them, but it would spell the end of our playtest for sure, since many of them do not have regular internet access and thus cannot download copies of the Beta on their own.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I mean more than 40,000 accounts.
As for distributing the PDF, we'd prefer that you encourage everyone to download it directly from us; we value the direct relationship we have with our customers—plus, it allows us to notify them directly when there are updates.
That said, we don't generally mind GMs sharing essential information with players in their gaming groups, but please ensure that you don't ever share our PDFs in a way that's publicly accessible... and keep in mind that if your players publicly share a PDF you've entrusted them with, it's *your* personally identifying information that we'll find, so you'll be the one responsible. (Yes, this *has* happened, and more than once.) It's far wiser to share material with them either as excerpts, or in print form.
Thanks for the info both on the numbers and on Paizo policy regarding the Beta. I am not too worried about the aforementioned players passing the PDFs onto the internet given that the main reason they cannot download their own copy is that they don't have regular access to the internet in the first place, but I will bear it in mind nonetheless. Once again - thanks!
On another note, it just occured to me that giving these other people copies of the Beta PDF might not be legal. This has not struck me until now, since the Beta PDF is free, so I automatically assumed that it would be OK, but now I am having some doubts. If it is not OK, I can ask the people to delete the copies they got from those who downloaded them, but it would spell the end of our playtest for sure, since many of them do not have regular internet access and thus cannot download copies of the Beta on their own.
What keeps them from using your computer to set up an account and download their very own PDFs?
And how can hey live without regular internet access? :O
In any case, unless you're playtesting, the time is honestly not right at this point to switch to the new rules. We're still printing everything using the 3.5 rules for that precise reason.
Definitely have to disagree with this. Some of us never purchased the 3.5 rules, having just bought 3.0. I found the Pathfinder beta great for starting a new campaign, with little thought to "Play Testing". Paizo has done a great job of putting out a really solid beta, and while I'm sure the final product will be even better, the beta is a step above having to hunt down used (or worse yet new) copies of 3.5.
Also, there are a lot of us who are really interested in supporting Paizo in this enterprise precisely because they will continue to support the game we enjoy, rather than trying to pull the 4e wool over our eyes.
I wonder if the real problem for the store owner is that he can't sell the pdf, if there was a book, he could sell that.
Perfectly valid complaint, though. Store-owners have to sell things to stay in business. And certainly we must acknowledge that the tabletop companies depend on stores in order to have most of thier market.
I don't begrudge the man for pointing them towards White Wolf, either. Fine system, that. Of course, hopefully they'll come back, once the Pathfinder book is out.
I had both the Alpha rules & the web enchancement bound at Kinko's and it was only around $3 each, not sure how that price would differ for a larger doc like the 400 page Beta.
However, like eirip, I did the printing at work so didn't have to pay for that.
To follow up on my earlier comment, I was at FedEx Kinko's earlier this evening and confirmed that the $3.50 cost to bind a book covered anything up to an inch thick.
As for printing it though...they told me $0.99/page in color. Ouch!
This was in downtown Boston (Tremont & Park), I am not sure if prices vary by location.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I bought a hard copy of the beta a my local game store, Source Comics & Games in St. Paul, MN (a shameless plug I know. I don't work for them, but they're really great guys).
That warms my heart, as The Source was my local game store 10 years ago before I moved to Seattle to join Wizards of the Coast (and eventually Paizo).
Say hi for me!
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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To address the OP, I sympathize with the store owner/manager. We printed enough books to match the anticipated demand, but we MASSIVELY underestimated the audience for the book.
We _thought_ we printed enough to cover your store manager and all of the stores everywhere. And then we added a few thousand MORE to the print run in order to make sure that our stocks lasted months past when we thought we'd run out.
And they lasted about three weeks.
Honestly, guys, we weren't even sure there would be an audience for a printed Beta Playtest edition of the game at all. It was originally meant to be PDF exclusively.
So we didn't print enough, and I'm sure we'll lose some customers because of it, at least until the full game is released in August.
But on the other hand, it's going to be a lot easier to find other Pathfinder players in eight months than we ever dared imagine a year ago.
Of that I am absolutely certain.
about the great success of the beta playtest book.
It is great to hear that it was such a huge success. I remember the heated discussion on these boards regarding if a new game was economically feasible at all. The success of the beta seems to indicate these fears to be quite unfounded.
Regarding German translations: Do you remember the FSV translation back in the 1ed/Basic D&D times? The DMG especially was BAD, with appendices not even written in proper german. I asked one of the folks involved at that time at FSV a few years ago when I met him at the Essen Spielemesse, and he winced even 15 years later as the sole answer (It might have been Uwe Körner, but I´m not sure about it). I think it was shortly after 3.0 was introduced, in 2000 or 2001. Against that, Amigo or F&S really stood out as doing very good translations.
Stefan
Against that, Amigo or F&S really stood out as doing very good translations.
No, I never read those. But if you say that Amigo's stuff is good in comparison, they must have been truly horrible.
Let's hope that Ulisses can do a decent job (though I guess they'll stick to many terms used in the 3e translations, which would be a serious drawback. Well, maybe they can still whip up something decent, and when PF2.0 is to be translated, they can start off with a blank slate and do good!)
Against that, Amigo or F&S really stood out as doing very good translations.No, I never read those. But if you say that Amigo's stuff is good in comparison, they must have been truly horrible.
They did translate torch with Taschenlampe (BE:electric torch, AE: flashlight), and discretion with Diskretion, which are spelled nearly the same, but have quite different meanings in English and in German. So much for the quality of the translation.
[/threadjack]
Stefan
Ah, the infamous torch translation.
I guess Magische Rakete (for the Nongermans: Rakete can be translated as missile, but more the rocket version, not the simple flying object version) is from back then as well?
Those things aren't just a thing of the past, though. When the Elminster novels were translated, which was during 3e times, maybe even 3.5e, they translated lich with Lurch (= amphibian).
Note that discretion can mean Diskretion, though I probably didn't in those cases.
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To address the OP, I sympathize with the store owner/manager. We printed enough books to match the anticipated demand, but we MASSIVELY underestimated the audience for the book.
Erik, has Paizo thought about putting the book up on Lulu for a couple of months until you're ready to go to print with the final? I admit I haven't dealt with them from a seller's standpoint, so don't know how long you have to run a product with them, but it would seem to meet the current demand to some extent until the final. Even if you only did it for a couple of months I would think it would help keep interest going to some extent for those wanting hard copies.
Another option perhaps would be a fast play pdf which would take up less paper when printing but help keep interest a buzz.
Also are you planning on promoting the pending arrival via RPG Day which will be coming up here soon enough?
Just some thoughts.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Erik, has Paizo thought about putting the book up on Lulu for a couple of months until you're ready to go to print with the final?
It wouldn't be worth it for you. (Plus I personally feel that lulu's quality—especially on covers—is not good enough for a Paizo product, even an interim beta.) However, I'm told—but have not personally verified—that they will print and bind PDFs you already own.
Also are you planning on promoting the pending arrival via RPG Day which will be coming up here soon enough?
We are indeed planning a Pathfinder RPG product for Free RPG Day. I don't think we're ready to share more details on the product itself yet, but as usual, after Free RPG Day passes, we'll have a PDF of the product available for free from our site, as well as a limited number of print editions for sale.
I had the Alpha 2 and 3 each printed in black and white, front/back with a 3-hole punch along the spine and a color cover page for about $14-15 here in Cincinnati (it even had chapter dividers for ease of reference). Add in a 3-ring binder, and we had a nice quality rule book. It doesn't need to be in color to be usable, and you can always avoid printing the pages you don't need if you have to.
It's not as nice as the Beta that we did actually buy, but it was handy. Come to think of it, I should probably go ahead and order a copy of the Beta with that treatment so that we can have an extra copy at the table during our Second Darkness games...
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Chief Technical Officer
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I do agree with the OP that there's a loooooong gap between printings here.
I'm mean, we've got another half YEAR before the final product is printed. Wouldn't it be profitable to print up another bunch of betas now? As well as a wise marketing move? While it's true that 4th edition took years to prepare, it's also true that they sold 3.5 nearly up to the moment when 4e hit the shelves, IIRC.
We set the price point on the Beta as low as we reasonably could in order to get it into the hands of a lot of people. Because print costs are impacted significantly by the number of copies printed, in order to not lose money on the reprint, we'd have to A) print as many copies as we did the first time and B) sell almost all of those copies. Given that it would take a few months to get those copies back from the printer, that means we'd have to sell all those copies after the playtest is over but before the finished RPG is released (rendering the Beta obsolete). There's probably an audience of some size that would buy it during that period, but it's highly doubtful that it would be enough.
That warms my heart, as The Source was my local game store 10 years ago before I moved to Seattle to join Wizards of the Coast (and eventually Paizo).
Say hi for me!
I most certainly will! I'm moving to East Asia in a few months and will miss the great RPG community in the Twin Cities myself.
As far as I can tell from my extended network of 50-or-so gamers, Pathfinder is definitely the 'new thing' around here, and there's a lot of buzz. I'm running two games with the beta rules and have friends in a number of others. I for one am not worried about waiting for a finished game... just excited.