Here is a homebrew set of notes for epic rules redone for Pathfinder. High levels are already convoluted as is so these rules are designed to stem the further appearance of complication as you advance into epic levels. This is NOT a complete set of rules, just a headstart on making better epic rules. Critique and enjoy.
Epic Level Advancement Benefits
Level 1 - epic feat, epic save bonus +1
Level 2 - feat
Level 3 - epic feat, epic save bonus +2
Level 4 - feat , +1 to any ability score
Level 5 - epic feat, epic save bonus +3
Level 6 - feat
Level 7 - epic feat, epic save bonus +4
Level 8 - feat, +1 to any ability score
Level 9 - epic feat, epic save bonus +5
Level 10 - feat
etc.
BaB continues to increase based depending on what class you advance in.
BaB beyond +20/+15/+10/+5 uses the following progression whenever your BaB would increase due to level advancement, capping at +20 per attack.
When you would gain an increase in BaB at maximum bonus, you gain a bonus combat feat instead.
BaB Progression beyond non-epic maximum
BaB +20 (+1): +20/+16/+11/+6
BaB +20 (+2): +20/+17/+12/+7
BaB +20 (+3): +20/+18/+13/+8
BaB +20 (+4): +20/+19/+14/+9
BaB +20 (+5): +20/+20/+15/+10
BaB +20 (+6): +20/+20/+16/+11
BaB +20 (+7): +20/+20/+17/+12
BaB +20 (+8): +20/+20/+18/+13
BaB +20 (+9): +20/+20/+19/+14
BaB +20 (+10): +20/+20/+20/+15
BaB +20 (+11): +20/+20/+20/+16
BaB +20 (+12): +20/+20/+20/+17
BaB +20 (+13): +20/+20/+20/+18
BaB +20 (+14): +20/+20/+20/+19
BaB +20 (+15): +20/+20/+20/+20
Hit Points and skill ranks also continue to increase depending on what class you advance in.
Gain a level in an epic class that you qualify for or a level in a base or prestige class.
Saving throws no longer increase by class level. You instead receive an epic bonus to all saving throws at 1st level and every 2 levels afterward.
Gain an epic feat at 1st level. Gain another epic feat every 2 levels after 1st.
Gain a non-epic feat at 2nd level. Gain another non-epic feat every 2 levels after 2nd.
Add 1 point to any ability score at every fourth level.
Epic Fighter (21st+)
+d10 HP per level
+2 skill ranks per level
Epic Armor Mastery: The fighter's DR from her armor mastery feature increases by 1 every level.
Epic Weapon Mastery: The fighter receives a +1 bonus to confirm threats with all other weapons of the same group as the weapon chosen for the weapon mastery feature. This bonus increases by 1 every level.
Bonus feats: The fighter gains a bonus feat at 21st level and every two levels afterward. These bonus feats must be selected from either fighter bonus feats or combat feats. Epic feats can not be selected for this feature.
<Here's an epic feat that synergizes with the epic fighter>
Eclectic Weapon Mastery [Epic]
Prerequisite: weapon mastery class feature
Benefit: You can not be disarmed when wielding any other weapon of the same group as the weapon chosen for your weapon mastery feature.
In addition, your damage multiplier when wielding any other weapon of the same group is increased by 1 (a x2 becomes a x3 for example)
***Epic Magic Weapons and Armor***
+5 is the maximum cap for enhancement bonus.
+10 is the maximum cap for effective bonus.
Ex. +5 holy (+2) axiomatic (+2) flaming (+1) weapon
Ex. +4 holy (+2) axiomatic (+2) flaming burst (+2) weapon
Artifacts are the exemption to this rule.
***Epic Spells***
Your Spellcraft must be at 21 or more ranks.
You must have access to level 9 sorceror/wizard or cleric spells or level 6 bard spells to research an epic spell of the respective type (level 9 cleric for an epic cleric spell, level 6 bard for an epic bard spell etc.).
You gain epic spellcasting slots. these can be used for adding the benefits of metamagic feats beyond the highest non-epic level you can cast at.
Ex. Use an Epic +1 slot for a heightened (+1) 9th level spell.
Ex. Use an Epic +1 slot for a heightened (+1), stilled (+1) 8th level spell.
Level 1 - 1 Epic +1
Level 2 - 2 Epic +1
Level 3 - 2 Epic +1, 1 Epic +2
Level 4 - 3 Epic +1, 2 Epic +2
Level 5 - 3 Epic +1, 2 Epic +2, 1 Epic +3
Level 6 - 4 Epic +1, 3 Epic +2, 2 Epic +3
Level 7 - 4 Epic +1, 3 Epic +2, 2 Epic +3, 1 Epic +4
Level 8 - 4 Epic +1, 4 Epic +2, 3 Epic +3, 2 Epic +4
Level 9 - 4 Epic +1, 4 Epic +2, 3 Epic +3, 2 Epic +4, 1 Epic +5
Level 10 - 4 Epic +1, 4 Epic +2, 4 Epic +3, 3 Epic +4, 2 Epic +5
etc.
Epic Spells are spells of levels higher than the highest non-epic spell level of a class (ex. level 7 bard spell). These spells must be researched, costing time and materials like crafting a magic item does.
The material cost in gp does not have to be spent all at once. The time cost is the minimum amount of time required for research. It may take longer depending on how soon the material cost is spent.
Epic Level +1: 100,000 gp and 1 week.
Epic Level +2: 300,000 gp and 1 month.
Epic Level +3: 600,000 gp and 2 months.
Epic Level +4: 1,000,000 gp and 5 months.
Epic Level +5: 1,500,000 gp and 1 year.
Elemental Tempest (Sorceror/Wizard 10)
Conjuration (creation) [acid, cold, electricity, fire]
Casting Time 2 rounds
Components V, S, M (1 sapphire, 1 ruby, 1 diamond, and 1 opal, each costing 100 or more gp)
Range Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area cylinder (30-ft. radius, 60 ft. high)
Duration 2 rounds
Saving Throw Reflex half, Spell Resistance yes
An elemental tempest creates a swirling tornado-like column of elemental forces. The spell deals 15d6 points (total, not each) of acid, cold, electricity, and fire damage. Damage is reduced based on your lowest resistance (or highest vulnerability) to any of the four types of damage dealt by the tempest.
During the first round of casting, the caster is sheathed in a scintillating aura that gives a +5 deflection bonus to AC and resistance 50 against each of the types of damage dealt by the tempest.
During the second round of casting, the deflection bonus increases to +8 and the resistance is replaced by immunity.
The aura lasts until the spell's duration ends.
This title kind of scared me, because I had thought that the Paizo guys had decided to jump into Epic even though they mentioned it would be a ways off before they tackled the topic.
Nice very ideas, there, quest-master! And nothing "over the top" at first glance. :)
(I especially like that BAB increases only for your initerative attacks)
I like moving the saves up.
I think adding a feat every single level is quite a bit too much.
I also don't see halting attack bonus progression as a good thing - AC continues to increase at epic levels at a fairly rapid pace, even without +6 armor, etc. I was going to suggest that instead of everyone getting poor BAB progression, everyone get good BAB progression.
It's a clean setup though, I'll give you that.
prefer same feat progression continue,
with option to gain an epic feat instead,
or may trade two epic feat picks for three normal feats
something like that
love the BAB idea :)
but Majuba has a very valid point!
maybe gain Epic BAB after 20?
prefer same save progression for class continued, until reach a cap
then gain Epic +1 for that save when gained after,
so other saves not Epic until the cap is reached
prefer stat boost every 2 levels
love the rest, good work :)
Good idea the Elemental Tempest spell, although for a 10th-level spell, 15d6 only is very weak, IMHO (even if the spell bypasses almost all immunities)...
And I agree with Majuba and veebles about the Epic BaB; if BaB doesn't scale, there should be Epic Monsters with an AC exactly like the CR 20-27 monsters of the MM (Great Wyrm Gold Dragon is CR 27), or no Epic character could hit them - but with an AC of 40, even a 'lousy' 18th-level Fighter could hit an Hecatoncheires, in that way...
Epic levels for monsters may have to be revised if epic levels for PCs are revised. Fortunately, it has been announced that monsters will indeed be revisited so this is possible.
In this particular case, a cap for monster AC at epic levels is strongly recommended for anyone using these rules. A simple houserule to go in line with these houserules.
Still, let's see, on average a melee character entering epic at 21 will have: BaB +15 to +20, ability modifier +2, magic weapon +2
+19 to hit to +24 (full BaB), not including flanking or buff spells or other favorable conditions (high ground, etc.) or feats (Weapon Focus, etc.)
So a monster at epic+ levels should have AC averaging around 29 to 34, and capping in the 40s, to make sure the melee fighters have at least a chance of hitting...
The idea behind these rules is to make it easier to keep the progressive math of epic levels from getting out of hand.
The cap for BaB represents the "perfection" or "peak" of your fighting skills at which point adaptability and decisiveness makes the difference between you and a foe at the same level (hence the switch to bonus feats).
The feat every level does seem a bit much. I wanted to separate the acquisition of non-epic feats and epic feats. It's hard to imagine anybody taking a non-epic feat over an epic feat and I don't want anyone taking a non-epic feat (for fulfilling requirements, etc.) to feel penalized that way.
For now it's at the very least filler for something else.
P.S. Keep in mind the area of effect and duration for Elemental Tempest. Also, Epic doesn't always mean you kill the monster of the same level in a couple of shots. Destroying the castle in a single shot, moving a mountain, etc.
This is a nice start and takes into account various suggestions/trends in the general feeback.
However I am worried about its interaction with Epic Monster progression. How does this system impact monster races (such as Bugbears)? One issue to be aware of is that monsters continue to gain BAB and Save increases at the set rate well past 20 HD.
Take a look at the Hezrou (Demon). While it advanced by HD it could also easily have class levels. What happens when I create a Huge(20 HD) advanced Hezrou with 10 levels of Fighter. Under current 3.0 rules the order I do this is very important. If I do the Outsider HD first then I gain no BAB or Saves from the fighter, just Epic progression. If I do the fighter levels first, I still get the Fighter BAB increase past 20th level. This is +25 BAB vs +30 BAB. Which one is right?
(Please, don't just think Player-Only. Keep DM NPC development in mind as well.)
I'm not even reading it until you stop the false advertising :P
Dorje Sylas wrote: This is a nice start and takes into account various suggestions/trends in the general feeback.
However I am worried about its interaction with Epic Monster progression. How does this system impact monster races (such as Bugbears)? One issue to be aware of is that monsters continue to gain BAB and Save increases at the set rate well past 20 HD.
Take a look at the Hezrou (Demon). While it advanced by HD it could also easily have class levels. What happens when I create a Huge(20 HD) advanced Hezrou with 10 levels of Fighter. Under current 3.0 rules the order I do this is very important. If I do the Outsider HD first then I gain no BAB or Saves from the fighter, just Epic progression. If I do the fighter levels first, I still get the Fighter BAB increase past 20th level. This is +25 BAB vs +30 BAB. Which one is right?
(Please, don't just think Player-Only. Keep DM NPC development in mind as well.)
First of all, the rules being adjusted by Pathfinder are the 3.5 rules, not 3.0.
An adjustment would have to be made regarding monster advancement past ECL 20.
First, treat the monster HD as levels. So in this case a 20 HD Hezrou is an LA +20 character. Add 10 levels of fighter for a level 30 character.
The Hezrou at 20 HD would have a BaB of +20/+15/+10/+5, being an outsider. 10 levels of fighter would make it +20/+20/+20/+15. Whether or not you count the outsider HD or fighter levels first, it would still be +20/+20/+20/+15.
As for saving throw bonus, since the Hezrou was obviously a Hezrou before it became a fighter, just calculate for the racial saving throws first before fighter levels as a default. If you want the Hezrou to have lower Reflex and Will saving throws, then change when the fighter levels were taken.
The Hezrou (maximized) using these rules would have at least Fort +26, Reflex +17, Will +19 (could be more depending on where you put the extra ability points).
P.S. Monsters are going to be revisited in Pathfinder Bestiary. Maybe the LA rules will be changed.
KaeYoss wrote: I'm not even reading it until you stop the false advertising :P Thread renamed... it was a bit misleading.
Vic Wertz wrote: KaeYoss wrote: I'm not even reading it until you stop the false advertising :P Thread renamed... it was a bit misleading. Thank you Mr. Wertz.
I thought mentioning this was a 'homebrew' at the beginning of the original post would be enough and wrote the title as a gag since it's highly unlikely that an official preview of epic rules would be out at this stage.
I apologize for any offenses made.
Okay, how about a 30 HD Hezrou? That's +30/+25/+20/+15. Add the 10 Fighter levels and would that be +30/+30/+30/+25? How about a base Elder Titian, +70/+65/+60/+55.
If you go the way you want to with this and cap at 20 then you will have to cap monsters otherwise the CMB will completely break down. Which will require a revision of many upper level monsters in the 15-20 CR bracket.
Dorje Sylas wrote:
If you go the way you want to with this and cap at 20 then you will have to cap monsters otherwise the CMB will completely break down. Which will require a revision of many upper level monsters in the 15-20 CR bracket.
There's not going to be a lot of revision involved since most monsters in CR 15-20 do not exceed 20 Hit Dice or BaB +20.
The rules kick in when 20 HD or BaB +20 is exceeded, and it's not very complicated to add BaB according to the table after the monster hits BaB +20.
Plus not all monsters hit BaB +20 at 20 HD so less revision is involved for those critters.
Saving throws will still have to be adjusted past 20 HD but again, the math is pretty straightforward. Just add the epic bonus according to the progression after 20 HD.
P.S. It already caps at +20/+20/+20/+20 - you can't get to +70/+65/+60/+55 with the progression - please look at it more carefully.
The whole combat feat thing at the end will need to be reworked. Hmmm
Vic Wertz wrote: KaeYoss wrote: I'm not even reading it until you stop the false advertising :P Thread renamed... it was a bit misleading. Good. Now, I will look at it.
I'm not sure about doubling the number of feats everyone gets, i.e. alternating between feat and epic feat. I'd suggest not speeding up things, so let the feats continue as normal, with the only change that you can now choose epic feats.
Save bonuses probably make sense, because with a regular advancement, the gaps would become too high.
I don't like the idea of not improving the prime attack bonus too much, but otherwise, it's intriguing. I'm for the continuation of the regular BAB rather than a fixed 1/2 for everyone, and against getting more than 4 attacks. I would grant everyone up to 4 attacks, though, even if they're wizards and such. Maybe, to let warrior types keep their edge, grant them something else whenever they'd gain another attack. The idea of making the weaker attacks better is a good one, as is a damage bonus.
I like the spell idea, though I'm not sure about the need to research the spells.
I had the idea of using special metamagic feats to make improved versions of old spells, similar to the feats the ELH already has. Otherwise, there needs to be a system to properly "cost" spells that doesn't turn epic spells into wimpy options most of the time (try to recreate meteor swarm or another high-level spell to epic levels - as regular spells, they require caster level 15+, but as epic spells with the same, or similar, effects, it may be closer to twice that amount.)
Note that your caps for epic magic arms and armour are the same as in the core levels: +5/+10. Is that deliberate?
KaeYoss wrote:
I don't like the idea of not improving the prime attack bonus too much, but otherwise, it's intriguing. I'm for the continuation of the regular BAB rather than a fixed 1/2 for everyone, and against getting more than 4 attacks. I would grant everyone up to 4 attacks, though, even if they're wizards and such. Maybe, to let warrior types keep their edge, grant them something else whenever they'd gain another attack. The idea of making the weaker attacks better is a good one, as is a damage bonus.
I like the spell idea, though I'm not sure about the need to research the spells.
Note that your caps for epic magic arms and armour are the same as in the core levels: +5/+10. Is that deliberate? Perhaps if the effective bonus were tracked, say +25 (+20/+20/+15/+10). And when the maximum bonus at +35 (+20/+20/+20/+20) is exceeded, at +40, +45, +50, etc., the character gains a bonus combat feat?
A special epic feat could let you give up your extra attacks to make a single attack at your effective bonus. This should probably be a once per day or once per opponent sort of thing.
Perhaps if most epic spells were researched like normal spells, but certain spells require special research and preparation. I'm thinking of the massive consequence psionic enchantments from Dark Sun, where vast forests were spontaneously generated or sorceror kings transformed themselves gradually into extremely powerul dragons (requiring elaborate setups where hundreds of people are sacrificed for their life force and the energies are focused through purposefully constructed buildings).
If a cap were made on monster AC because of the cap on BaB, I felt that magic item enhancement bonus should be capped too.
Although perhaps effective bonus should be made higher to +15 or +20, for the epic properties to be added. No more than +5 enhancement but up to +19 in magic properties.
In this case a minimum enhancement bonus should probably be ruled for adding epic properties (to avoid the +1 weapon that does +19 abilities but gets sundered by a +2 weapon that does nothing). +2 for a +6 or +7 property, +3 for a +8 or +9 property, +4 for a +10 or +11 property, +5 for a +12 or higher property.
quest-master wrote:
Perhaps if the effective bonus were tracked, say +25 (+20/+20/+15/+10). And when the maximum bonus at +35 (+20/+20/+20/+20) is exceeded, at +40, +45, +50, etc., the character gains a bonus combat feat?
Give up +20 for one feat? That has consolation price written all over it. And a lot of tracking for a little feat.
quest-master wrote:
If a cap were made on monster AC because of the cap on BaB, I felt that magic item enhancement bonus should be capped too.
I'm not at all a fan of caps.
The caps are to prevent the math from getting wonky while keeping the BaB progression of the classes.
Hmm...
What if instead of gaining increases in BaB at the cutoff point, you gain an epic bonus to any damage you deal with an attack?
A level 50 character flicks a level 1 character on the forehead for a KO...
Come to think of it, how far do most epic games go anyway?
If we made a level cap at say 60, it would be easier to design the progression.
Fighting a monster at the equivalent of level 60+ would be more fighting lower level parts of its body like trying to kill a living island.
Living Island Hand (CR 45), Living Island Head (CR 52), etc.
Please try to keep the CR jokes about other Living Island parts to a minimum... :)
Hmm...
Living Island With CR 45 and up? Can work. What CR should the really hard parts get?
I could see epic rules being developed for another level range beyond 1-20, say 21-30 or 21-40, and balance things out for that range. That would, hopefully, remove the need for caps on things like attack bonus or AC.
I could live with that limit, and maybe some more limits like maxium enhancement bonus on weapons, armour, and other boost items (maybe +10/+20 for arms/armour, +12 for stat boosters, +10 for deflection or natural armour bonuses, and +16 for bracers of armour; all for that 21-40 range), but calculated stats should not have a hard limit. That means no hard limit for total AC or attack bonuses.
I have played some epic, and think that up to level 30, things still work well enough, and I'd say the pain threshold is 40.
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