I know that paizo/jason doesn't know if epic pathfinder is going to happen. but i find it an interesting thought piece.
Here are my thoughts on one way to do Epic levels.
I've always thought the easy way to do epic is to have the characters go back to first, think 2nd edition human multiclassing. the characters keep all their powers of being 20th but can improve the lower level stuff. have most of the different leveled abilities max out at 20, skills, bab, ect. example: the 20th level wizard goes back and takes levels of fighter. 8 levels of fighter and their BAB maxes out, but they can continue to take more levels of fighter for the feats and other abilities.
this would allow them to increase BAB, pick up some combat feats and increase different places of power.
but say you want to increase in wizard alone. i would suggest a prestege class that increases caster level, and maybe gives some other abilities.
this system works well in most worlds, anyone that is 20th is a step away from godhood anyway why can't they go back and balance out their characters a little.
it also works well for multiclassed characters, the skills they mastered stay mastered, but they can finish the rest of the classes. example: 20 sorcerer/20 rogue/10 arcane trickster is 50th level with 30 levels of caster 15d6 sneak attack.
please give me your $.02 or post your own version of epic.
So, what you are suggesting is that once a character hits 20, they can start multi-classing, but their BAB/Skills etc. max out at 20.
It sounds like an interesting way to handle it, but it would throw off CRs. Normally, when a fighter (for example) gains a level, he gains BAB, skills and class features. But with this, lets say a level 20 fighter took 1 level in barbarian. He would gain HP and class features, but no increase in BAB or skills. This throws off CR advancement, since after 20 each additional level would give less potent bonuses.
If you are going to re-work the system anyway, why not just left them continue gaining everything as normal, but say no base class can be taken beyond level 20.
So, what you are suggesting is that once a character hits 20, they can start multi-classing, but their BAB/Skills etc. max out at 20.
yeah something like that
It sounds like an interesting way to handle it, but it would throw off CRs.
yes it would
Normally, when a fighter (for example) gains a level, he gains BAB, skills and class features. But with this, lets say a level 20 fighter took 1 level in barbarian. He would gain HP and class features, but no increase in BAB or skills. This throws off CR advancement, since after 20 each additional level would give less potent bonuses.
remember the skill maxes wouldn't increase, you'd still get skill points
If you are going to re-work the system anyway, why not just left them continue gaining everything as normal, but say no base class can be taken beyond level 20.
this is a good idea also
BAB advances as normal, saves progress as normal...simple.
what about extra attacks from high bab?
I agree with the "advance as normal" to a point. Extra attacks should cap at 4. It's a good arbitrary number that keeps things from going to crazy.
I think that the current Epic rules, taken basically from 3.0, work just fine for the most part. Considering that Multi-classing is actually reasonable option in PFRPG that makes taking a new class at 21th level one possible option.
There are a few possible oddities that need to be addressed however. The big one is LA and Monster HD interaction with the Epic BAB and Save progressions. Also they way previously multi-classed characters work. I would prefer to re-write the rules so that if a character takes a 21st+ level in a Class they use the Epic progression for that class. If they multi-class back to a non-epic class the get the saves for that class as normal.
This would address one of the biggest issues I have with Epic as it stands. To make the point clearer about Monster HD and LA really messing up the current system I'd point to the Fire Giant, 15 Giant HD + 4 LA = ECL 19 base. Fighter 6 puts it into 21st HD and Epic BAB & Save for the fighter levels. Compare that against a Hezrou demon with 21 Outsider HD and ECL 30, who keeps increasing his BAB and Saves at the normal outsider rates ( BAB = HD, all good saves).
Sorry to double post, but note on Divinity and Deities. 20th level is not that close to god-hood. Hero deity yes, but not yet a Demi-god necessarily I would say. Going by the Divine OGL material from 3.0 Deities and Demi-gods, "most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well." They are something like 60th level characters normally plus the benefits of divine ranks and salient divine abilities.
In all honesty a 21st level hero is a bad ass true, but there are things even in the MM that are dangerous and possibility even deadly for them. Great wyrm red dragon?
From what I remember from 2nd edition expanded rules your progression toward good hood began after 30th level. It still took a good amount of exp to buy down saves and other things after that point.
Sorry to double post, but note on Divinity and Deities. 20th level is not that close to god-hood. Hero deity yes, but not yet a Demi-god necessarily I would say. Going by the Divine OGL material from 3.0 Deities and Demi-gods, "most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well." They are something like 60th level characters normally plus the benefits of divine ranks and salient divine abilities.
I am basing the god line off of a brillant artical Calibrating Your Expectations
In all honesty a 21st level hero is a bad ass true, but there are things even in the MM that are dangerous and possibility even deadly for them. Great wyrm red dragon?
so then there is a reason to go epic
From what I remember from 2nd edition expanded rules your progression toward good hood began after 30th level. It still took a good amount of exp to buy down saves and other things after that point.
i was talking about muticlassing for humans when i was mentioning 2nd, not epic level stuff.
Well truly at first glance that looks like a fairly decent plan.Thanks, though i'm thinking some of the above plans are better.
I do have to say though that the problem I have with it I believe is a simple but deadly one. If you were to truly play into epic levels, let's say to thirty as a nice round number, then you start getting a lot of different flavor clones instead of individual characters.
Another thing is logically from a roleplaying point of view to say that a wizard progresses to twenty and is as you say next to god like then why would he all of the sudden become interested in the art of swordplay?
I'm not thinking swordplay, i'm thinking that he's mastered spellcasting, and now he might want to become better at other parts of it. those ranged touch attacks still use BAB at 30th, right.
Of course there's a reason to play Epic, going beyond 20th. It has been around since at least 1985 with the Companion, Master, and Immortal books (which I don't actually own). Fighting gods, or playing as them is a part of the very upper end of playing D&D.
An interesting article, which in a way is why I said that 20th or 21st level heroes are coming up on hero deity status.
Although in response to the article's talking about Gandalf, I'd say anyone trying to stat him as a Human Wizard in D&D is going to fail from the start as he isn't human. It isn't clearly stated in Lord of the Rings but dig deep enough in to Tolkien's robust world building and you quickly see that he would best be stated as a Maiar, which would be an Outsider(native) type.
I do find it cool that Paizo has left a very useful tool for creating PC deities in its base setting. I mean here's at least one Epic/Deity campaign that could be done. Fight Lamashtu to try and reclaim the beasts portfolio. At minimum that would entail storming the Abyss.
I like the concept as an Epic option :)
maybe incorporate with Epic boons somehow
as I've posted in another Epic thread,
gaining 1st level in another class is hardly equal to 21st
XP/2 or XP/4 equivalent in levels is more appropriate for multiclassing once Epic
I like the concept as an Epic option :)
maybe incorporate with Epic boons somehow
no, i would like to get rid of the consept of epic, like there is some magic line that you cross. i want "epic" to be just a continuing of the same sort of progressions.
the "epic line" doesn't work on any level except 20, why not an "epic line" at 10th. it's not real. i don't know, it just doesn't work in my brain. i like the idea of you max out a class at 20th, and though you can pick up another class, and there are now feats you meet the prereq's for (so called Epic Feats) i would not put an invisible line at 20th.
for the most part i agree, but i like to think of it as learning a new skill. think of it, a fighter that has reached a true mastery, few has ever reached his level, and what does he do, pick up new skills, ie he picks up a level of rogue, this gives him a bunch of skill points, a sneak attack die. he's still bad ass but now he has more options.as I've posted in another Epic thread,
gaining 1st level in another class is hardly equal to 21st
XP/2 or XP/4 equivalent in levels is more appropriate for multiclassing once Epic
and at what point does the 1 per 2 levels stop, how would you make this work.
i know this isn't a great response, i'm not directly arguing against what your saying, i can be a very intuitive type of person. epic feels wrong, not much more can be said about it.
A good designer could make this system work, but I don't see it happening. As a class based system, PF is based around the ideal of a group of characters with very distinct abilities complementing each other to overcome challenges. So I can't see Jason deciding to make "starting again at 1st" more appealing than taking the next level of your class.
TS
gaining 1st level in another class is hardly equal to 21st
And having to take 1 level Humanoid or 1 level of Commoner is definitely worth less then a standard PC class level, but they still 'cost' 1 level.
Please, don't just think Player-only. The current Epic rules are rather hard on people writing Epic Monsters and NPCs due to the complexities of the transition from 20th to 21st.
Eric Stripe you seem to have misunderstood me and can see how my post caused that :(
I apologise, hope I didn't ruffle the feathers too much
I'll try to clarify :)
I was using "epic" the same as you, what happens after 20th level, but maybe in a broader scope
as in whether that includes an epic character transition or not
and any special benefits from that point in a character's development
whether that includes 21st level and above classes or not
and whether you happen to double up in a similar/same class or not
to gain extra domains in line with your deity for example
I wasn't trying to change your suggestion, just incorporate it into whichever direction paizo goes in, that's all :)
as stated, I like the idea :)
What you proposed was called "dual classing" in the good old days
humans couldn't multiclass back then, dualclassing was thier only option
I could easily argue against reduction costs due to this
just kicking around options is all :)
the 10th level mark is already special albeit a blurry +/- 1 level
better feats become available, advanced rogue talents, casters get 5th level spells, semi-casters finally get 3rd, and so on
A similar thing happens at 5th and 15th level but less noticeable
I was merely suggesting doing something similar at 20th level, along the same line,
as in following your train of thought, not contradicting it ;)
that suggestion being multiclass reduction costs,
but only if XP continues at the same rate after 20th character level
and even then only for up to the 10th class level accordingly
I'm not suggesting a sudden drop in XP per character level by any means.
please notice I said 20th character level and not 20th class level
if there were a 21st class level, reduction costs should definitely apply, due to power ratios,
but that has nothing to with the discussion you started, 21st class level does not exist here ;)
*crossing fingers and hoping I didn't just make things worse*
gaining 1st level in another class is hardly equal to 21st
And having to take 1 level Humanoid or 1 level of Commoner is definitely worth less then a standard PC class level, but they still 'cost' 1 level.
Please, don't just think Player-only. The current Epic rules are rather hard on people writing Epic Monsters and NPCs due to the complexities of the transition from 20th to 21st.
ahem... I am a DM, and a GM for that matter, as well as a player
with many years under the belt, including game designmy comment was far from a player's viewpoint, but from a system design regarding balance viewpoint
please don't make such assumptions
aside from your abrupt comment having nothing to do with the actual discussion
let alone apparantly an unprompted personal swipe for unknown reasons
I did not infer or imply belittling the work involved with Epic design
nor has anyone else in this thread
If you have a personal erk atm don't take it out on us
1 level Humanoid/Commoner is a requirement for a specific reason that is not relevant in the slightest as a debate worthy of any substance.
I believe you know all of that full well already and chose to ignore it
At no time has level 20/1 ever been equal to 21st Epic
but again, 21st epic has nothing to do with this discussion here
you failed to contribute but successfully trolled if that was your intent
If I've misunderstood you please clarify
I would be much happier if that were the case.
My apologizes, I did not intend to slight your experience playing the game(s). I am fully aware of how 2nd Edition handled EXP [smaller](and one reason I say Wizards are more powerful then they should be at high levels in 3.x)[/smaller] and where you are coming from in terms of the heavily diminished returns of starting a new class after going 20 levels in another. If this were many other game systems I would likely be more in agreement, but this isn't Anima, BESM, Dark Heresy, and thank goodness not Rifts.
*edit* I think I figure out what you got mad about. And I'm sorry for intimating you were just a player and only had a player's perspective. What I meant to say was that your suggestion was highly focused (as most of the current Epic discussions) on the Player Character mechanics and not really looking ahead to NPCs and Monsters.
One important issue in developing Epic (beyond 20)content is the interaction with NPC and Monster rules. Even for non-monster NPCs with PC class levels you will have to adjust the CR system past 20th. Without a nod in that direction a Wizard 20/epic-restart Fighter 10 would be CR 28 in PFRG. Unless I misunderstand you, your saying that a such a lower-level multi-class has less impact on a character then the existing 20 Wizard levels. This would mean for an NPC that portion would represent less of a threat.
What about a multi-classes like Mystic Theurge (assume end Cleric 5/Wizard 5/MT 10). Should this character get a discount on increasing his Cleric or Wizard levels?
I guess my main point is that the 1-20 level system is complex enough that you need to very aware when you start tampering with its leveling assumption, that 1 HD = 1 Level, regardless of relative power.
thank you Dorje
and I apologise for flying off the handle a bit there
it just came out of the blue, compared to your other posts elsewhere
am very glad you're not the type of person the previous impression left me with
very glad :)
I understand your concerns and agree with you to a point
I personally think designing balanced character development comes before monsters, encounters and backdrop
that the core rules need to be at least a release candidate,
before tearing hair out trying to create an extension under constant changes.
sounds like Win95 otherwise lol
DMs traditionally have to adjust the monsters anyway
the game innately focuses on the PCs not the monsters
I don't recall anyone ever complaining about the monsters being broken in any version of Epic :)
I don't mean that as discounting the design of them
they've always been, for the most part, of a quality I've come to rely upon and hence expect
implying the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" rule ;)
what I was referring to was the specific disparity between a character who did not take the transition into Epic as opposed to one that did.
Epic feats, spells, saves, equipment, and so on vs a level in something else.
so yes, a very big difference in threat, the HD are not equal.
Otherwise, it seems we agree.
Paizo has made a lot of changes to eradicate creep problems too, which were just compounding the matter.
I too am glad this isn't one of those *cough*SJ*cough* games lol
btw - the sole reason for my post being so focused was the topic ;)
Mystic Theurge is a PrC, not a plain vanilla multiclass,
so no, of course I'd be opposed to that, specifically because of what is gained.
Same for any PrC really, crikey, many give Epic feats!
surprized you didn't use Incantatrix as an example too LOL
Then again there are those you have to just scratch your head and ask,
"why would anybody take that? it's worse than the core class" lol
PrCs and Epic both felt tagged on to me, as if written by players for players,
DMs not even considered let alone consulted.
well let's be honest, slapped on to appease player wallets lol :)
I'm not referring to Epic Monsters or Modules about any of that of course.
peace be with you