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Let me just start this off with saying I've enjoyed every single adventure path Paizo has come out with. Age of Worms and Rise of the Runelords are two of my favorites, of which I've run the first twice and the second I'm in the middle of running through the first time.
But one thing I have noticed over the last couple years, is that there hasn't been an aberration based AP. I'm not saying that the other APs weren't good. They were amazing.
What I did notice was the following:
I have this great Abberation book from Wizards with interesting stuff in it. (I liked it at least, can't speak for everyone)
Aberations always seem to be one shot baddies in APs, but players (mine and some who have posted on the messageboards) usually want to fight more.
Pathfinder has Psionics built in, which line up with Aberrations quite well (though I understand that not everyone likes psionics or has access to the books, so this is somewhat of a moote point).
The Cthullu mythos in Golarian would mesh well with Aberrations.
So, is there a reason there hasn't been an Aberration based adventure path? Are the other monsters more awesome/easy to write about (that's not meant as a slight, I understand if people like or would prefer to use other monster types)? Has anyone here ever made an Aberration game, and how did it go? Am I the only one thinking this?
Also, I apologize if this was brought up earlier, and mean no harm. I'm already jonesing for the next two adventure paths, if only for something to read.
Thanks,
Modera
Wouldn't an abberation AP require the PCs to start out at a relatively high level? Until Paizo is ready to start that (and I haven't looked into the future APs to see if that is on the horizon) it looks like some of our favourite creatures will have to take the back seat.
I love Lords of Madness, too. Will Paizo be coming up with an 'eye-beast' equivalent?
Part of the problem is that most of the iconic aberrations (mind flayers, beholders, etc) are WotC's intellectual property. Paizo can't use them for their own products, because they're not part of the OGL.
I suspect that they're planning on creating different aberrations to sort of take the place of the big names for Golarion, but they haven't done so yet, and that may be the hold-up.
Creative Director
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Faking a beholder with an "eye beast" is not something Paizo is going to do. It's kind of petulant, in my opinion, to try to replace creatures that Wizards of the Coast has rightfully claimed as product identity. Instead, it's better to go with open-content variations (like the eye of the deep in the beholder's case, or the intellect devourer or neothelid in the mind flayer's case) or just come up with brand new replacements of your own (the proteans in the case of slaadi).
Anyway!
I have Adventure Paths plotted out until 2012, and at least ONE of those is a full on aberration-filled ordeal. We haven't done much with aberrations yet simply because of timing issues; when we switched over to Pathfinder after we lost the Dungeon license, that was in many ways a "Rebooting" of the process. We wanted the first few Pathfinder APs to be "core D&D" and that meant doing an adventure that focused on giants, doing one that focused on a classic evil queen plot, and doing one that focused on drow. With Legacy of Fire, we're finally getting comfortable enough with Pathfinder that we can start doing more unusual types of adventures; this one could just as easily have been a Lovecraftian aberration adventure path as it was a genie/Arabian Nights themed path, but we chose to go with the latter.
Then, with the NEXT adventure path, we're getting hit with ANOTHER reboot; we're switching over to the Pathfinder RPG. That AP, Council of Thieves, is again going back to being a relatively standard and familiar plot (the "stand against the thieves' guild!" plot) so that our customers see that the game we're publishing remains the classic game.
Further compounding the problem is, of course, the fact that most of the big, complex aberrations in the SRD that are hearty and interesting enough to carry an entire adventure path are closed content. We can't do a beholder AP or a mind flayer AP, for example. We could also come up with a brand new aberration race, but that's risky since if our new race ends up sucking, we've got an unpopular AP on our hands.
Aboleths are probably the best candidate for an aberration-themed AP using aberrations from the SRD, frankly... but they come with their own host of problems. Namely: They're aquatic. So suddenly you don't have an aberration AP but an aquatic AP, and an aquatic AP is a pretty unusual and strange concept, and one we would never consider doing when we're in "Reboot" conditions. That said, I love me them aboleths and an aquatic-themed AP sounds VERY interesting to me...
Anyway... until we DO do an aberration-heavy AP (and trust me, we will eventually!), you can rest assured that there will be aberrations popping up as often as possible in APs. :-)
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Wouldn't an abberation AP require the PCs to start out at a relatively high level? Until Paizo is ready to start that (and I haven't looked into the future APs to see if that is on the horizon) it looks like some of our favourite creatures will have to take the back seat.
I love Lords of Madness, too. Will Paizo be coming up with an 'eye-beast' equivalent?
I originally thought that as well, but (and unfortunately I'm at work and can't look it up) wasn't there a creature in Lords of Madness that were relatively low level, and took over people? It was all tentacles and whatnot?
The other point is that if one looks at Age of Worms:
[EDIT] Of course, I post this as James answers my question, which was awesome, by the way. Thanks!
An aberration themed AP would not require starting at high levels. As has been pointed out already Lords of Madness had some low CR monsters and if you look at Age of Worms the undead didn't really start popping up until the PCs were high enough level to tangle with them.
With any AP, professionally written or devised by individual DMs for their games, there are lots of peripheral encounters. Monsters can be normal but with a slight alien twist or can have the template from Complete Arcane that I can't remember the name of added to them to make them creatures of the Far Plane. And most importantly, don't forget the cultists... there are always cultists...
Template=pseudonatural creature.
The campaign could be called the Eyes of Azatoth! Think of sales to lovecraft fans alone!! :p
I really enjoy the Cthulu plotline and love using abberations in my own campaigns. I've done it on several occasions when I wanted an alien-type enemy to put the pc's against. I have noticed that they tire of it after awhile, just like a heavy undead themed adventure. That may just be my group, though.
Anyway, to sum up, they're great! (When used in moderation)
Thanks James! We appreciate the hard work!
AP hints
Oh mammy!
I have Adventure Paths plotted out until 2012
i just had a nerdgasm.
Aboleth adventure path has been done. Night Below.
An aberration themed AP would not require starting at high levels. As has been pointed out already Lords of Madness had some low CR monsters and
... they're off limits. Cannot use them. Sucks, but complain to wizards for not letting anyone play with their toys.
Chokers while not smart enough are a great low level aberration for mine--- quick, scuttling creatures with long grasping rubbery arms.
I would be nice to have an AP that did not end with a fight against a single bbeg spellcaster/spellthrower.
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Aboleth adventure path has been done. Night Below.
So has a giant campaign (Against the Giants) and a drow campaign (Multiple times). We're not afraid to try something that's been done before if we're confident we can add something new to it, is what I'm saying.
And having looked through the Night Below recently to mine it for ideas while I was writing the aboleth chapter of Lords of Madness... there's surprisingly not a lot of information about aboleths and not a lot of plot there; the actual part of the campaign that has aboleths is mostly just tactics and stat blocks, it seemed.
In any case... if we WERE to do an aboleth adventure path, it'd be pretty different from the Night Below, since the majority of Golarion's aboleths live in the ocean, not deep underground. Just sayin'. :-P
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In any case... if we WERE to do an aboleth adventure path, it'd be pretty different from the Night Below, since the majority of Golarion's aboleths live in the ocean, not deep underground. Just sayin'. :-P
Between the times when the oceans drank the Azlanti and the rise of the sons of Aroden... there was an age undreamed of! An onto this, the aboleths, destined to crush the jeweled crowns of Thassilonia with a tentacled strike. It is I, a Pathfinder, who alone can tell thee of this saga. Let me tell you of the days of high adventure!
:-D
In any case... if we WERE to do an aboleth adventure path, it'd be pretty different from the Night Below, since the majority of Golarion's aboleths live in the ocean, not deep underground. Just sayin'. :-P
And if you were to do this AP, it would be great if Paizo could do a nod to Shadows Over Innsmouth. The PCs could investigate a small isolated coastal town where the inhabitants just aren't right. This could be a nice stepping stone into a oceanic adventure, and I'd love to see Paizo's take on this story.
By the way, since you have AP's outlined until 2012, could you give some teasers?
Aboleth adventure path has been done. Night Below.So has a giant campaign (Against the Giants) and a drow campaign (Multiple times). We're not afraid to try something that's been done before if we're confident we can add something new to it, is what I'm saying.
This is nothing but pure goodness.
And if you were to do this AP, it would be great if Paizo could do a nod to Shadows Over Innsmouth. The PCs could investigate a small isolated coastal town where the inhabitants just aren't right. This could be a nice stepping stone into a oceanic adventure, and I'd love to see Paizo's take on this story.
I would LOVE this. Combine this with some of the plot elements from "Evil Tide" from the TSR (I think) days and you've got one hell of an adventure!
...wasn't there a creature in Lords of Madness that were relatively low level, and took over people? It was all tentacles and whatnot?
The Tsochar I believe...
Anyway!
I have Adventure Paths plotted out until 2012...
Wait... Does this mean James knows the end really is coming in 2012?!
Ahh!
Unfortunately, yes.
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2012 will be another Reboot...that's when Wizards will go out of business and Paizo will buy all intellectual property of Wizards...
It will be a time of enlightenment...the golden age of role-play
;)
I have been looking forward to that for a year. I found a Nostradamus Quatrain that seems to point in that direction. And after extensive reading I realized that the Mayan calendar is really saying it is not the end of the world just the dawning of a new age - the age of Paizo.
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In any case... if we WERE to do an aboleth adventure path, it'd be pretty different from the Night Below, since the majority of Golarion's aboleths live in the ocean, not deep underground. Just sayin'. :-PAnd if you were to do this AP, it would be great if Paizo could do a nod to Shadows Over Innsmouth. The PCs could investigate a small isolated coastal town where the inhabitants just aren't right. This could be a nice stepping stone into a oceanic adventure, and I'd love to see Paizo's take on this story.
By the way, since you have AP's outlined until 2012, could you give some teasers?
As it turns out... chances of Lovecraft influences being in such an adventure path are pretty high. Since I've been putting Lovecraft influences into Pathfinder pretty often. And since in the aboleth chapter of Lords of Madness I included a big section about tying the aboleth in with the mythos. In fact, an adventure path with strong Lovecraft themes is something I'd LOVE to do, whether or not it's an aboleth-themed one.
As for actual teasers for what's on my Pathfinder schedule... isn't this talk about an aboleth/Lovecraftian AP teaser enough?
I'm not going to give out ACTUAL information, of course, since what I have scheduled isn't necessarily going to stick. One AP that I originally wanted to do as AP3, for example, has been rescheduled to AP 6 and then AP 7 as new ideas pop up or new needs must be met. Who knows when or if that one'll ever REALLY be an Adventure Path?
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One other thing: An aberration themed adventure path doesn't need aberrations in every adventure. It shouldn't; that'd get dull.
Look at Rise of the Runelords. It's a giant-themed adventure path, but giants are even HARDER to use for low level adventures. It's not until the third adventure that the giants show up, but when you're done with the campaign, it still feels, overall, like it was a giant themed campaign. An aberration AP can certainly do something similar.
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An aberration themed AP would not require starting at high levels. As has been pointed out already Lords of Madness had some low CR monsters and... they're off limits. Cannot use them. Sucks, but complain to wizards for not letting anyone play with their toys.
What sucks even more is that the best aberration for an adventure path, the Deep Spawn, is also off limits.
... isn't this talk about an aboleth/Lovecraftian AP teaser enough?
Don't get me wrong. I'm stoked to see more Lovecraftian love. It just never hurts to ask. I can only imagine what the other AP ideas may be, and that makes my inner-geek very happy.
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What sucks even more is that the best aberration for an adventure path, the Deep Spawn, is also off limits.An aberration themed AP would not require starting at high levels. As has been pointed out already Lords of Madness had some low CR monsters and... they're off limits. Cannot use them. Sucks, but complain to wizards for not letting anyone play with their toys.
There are PLENTY of cool aberrations out there already, though. Sure, some of them are closed content, but that doesn't mean they're the only choices... or even the best choices. I prefer to look at it this way: There's a few monsters that are closed content, but compared to what COULD have been... we've got an AWFUL lot of choices out there to go with.
I guess, as far as monsters are concerned, I'm a glass is half full kind of guy.
I guess, as far as monsters are concerned, I'm a glass is half full kind of guy.
So December 21st, 2012 is a good thing because you don't have to plan Adventure Paths beyond that point? :D
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I guess, as far as monsters are concerned, I'm a glass is half full kind of guy.So December 21st, 2012 is a good thing because you don't have to plan Adventure Paths beyond that point? :D
Technically... January of 2013 is the last adventure in that AP, so it's not until February of 2013 that we're adrift in a sea of unknown possibility.
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Aboleths are probably the best candidate for an aberration-themed AP using aberrations from the SRD, frankly... but they come with their own host of problems. Namely: They're aquatic. So suddenly you don't have an aberration AP but an aquatic AP, and an aquatic AP is a pretty unusual and strange concept, and one we would never consider doing when we're in "Reboot" conditions. That said, I love me them aboleths and an aquatic-themed AP sounds VERY interesting to me...
James, when you say aquatic, are you just referring to something underwater like a 'Find Lost Atlantis' AP? My players have been itching to do an adventure on the sea and want pirates, ship battles, huge storms, sea monsters and all that stuff and I was hoping something in that vein might be coming up soon for Pathfinder. (And yes, we will be doing Chimera Cove at some point).
In any case... if we WERE to do an aboleth adventure path, it'd be pretty different from the Night Below, since the majority of Golarion's aboleths live in the ocean, not deep underground. Just sayin'. :-PAnd if you were to do this AP, it would be great if Paizo could do a nod to Shadows Over Innsmouth. The PCs could investigate a small isolated coastal town where the inhabitants just aren't right. This could be a nice stepping stone into a oceanic adventure, and I'd love to see Paizo's take on this story.
By the way, since you have AP's outlined until 2012, could you give some teasers?
As it turns out... chances of Lovecraft influences being in such an adventure path are pretty high. Since I've been putting Lovecraft influences into Pathfinder pretty often. And since in the aboleth chapter of Lords of Madness I included a big section about tying the aboleth in with the mythos. In fact, an adventure path with strong Lovecraft themes is something I'd LOVE to do, whether or not it's an aboleth-themed one.
As for actual teasers for what's on my Pathfinder schedule... isn't this talk about an aboleth/Lovecraftian AP teaser enough?
I'm not going to give out ACTUAL information, of course, since what I have scheduled isn't necessarily going to stick. One AP that I originally wanted to do as AP3, for example, has been rescheduled to AP 6 and then AP 7 as new ideas pop up or new needs must be met. Who knows when or if that one'll ever REALLY be an Adventure Path?
And Lo, in the first year of the new age, there was a great up heval and the forrest was full of din and discord. For it was in that year that the prophets of the golum unleashed 'into goatswood' onto the pitiful few who remained sane. Ia! Ia! Shub-Niggurath! The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thosand Young! Ia! Ia!
Ai! Ai!
I have Adventure Paths plotted out until 2012, and at least ONE of those is a full on aberration-filled ordeal.
Phew! Here's a thought to lead slowing into using aboleths and aquatics: For lower levels, use your basic spellunking skills to open the adventure into dirty, disgusting things. You know, your basic slimes, oozes, jellies, puddings and what not.
Move into some gibbering mouther action and other nasties that work well in dim, dark and eventually wet caves or caverns. Then eventually it opens into a larger area where the aboleths can access and control some group from there. Maybe even some escaped fleshwarped creatures too.
Just a thought.
I have Adventure Paths plotted out until 2012, and at least ONE of those is a full on aberration-filled ordeal.Phew! Here's a thought to lead slowing into using aboleths and aquatics: For lower levels, use your basic spellunking skills to open the adventure into dirty, disgusting things. You know, your basic slimes, oozes, jellies, puddings and what not.
Move into some gibbering mouther action and other nasties that work well in dim, dark and eventually wet caves or caverns. Then eventually it opens into a larger area where the aboleths can access and control some group from there. Maybe even some escaped fleshwarped creatures too.
Just a thought.
Or, you could write the Adventure Path for . . . 5th to 20th, rather then 1st to 15th. :D
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Aboleths are probably the best candidate for an aberration-themed AP using aberrations from the SRD, frankly... but they come with their own host of problems. Namely: They're aquatic. So suddenly you don't have an aberration AP but an aquatic AP, and an aquatic AP is a pretty unusual and strange concept, and one we would never consider doing when we're in "Reboot" conditions. That said, I love me them aboleths and an aquatic-themed AP sounds VERY interesting to me...James, when you say aquatic, are you just referring to something underwater like a 'Find Lost Atlantis' AP? My players have been itching to do an adventure on the sea and want pirates, ship battles, huge storms, sea monsters and all that stuff and I was hoping something in that vein might be coming up soon for Pathfinder. (And yes, we will be doing Chimera Cove at some point).
We've already done a pirate AP with a fair amount of ocean stuff back in Dungeon (Savage Tide) so it'll probably be a while before we go back to that scene. When I say "aquatic" I mean mostly underwater.
Doesn't mean there won't be any topside aquatic action, of course... but if you're looking for naval adventures, you might wanna check out some of the Savage Tide adventures, particularly "The Sea Wyvern's Wake" in Dungeon #141.
adrift in a sea of unknown possibility.
Oh, metaphor, all too apt!
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Or, you could write the Adventure Path for . . . 5th to 20th, rather then 1st to 15th. :DI have Adventure Paths plotted out until 2012, and at least ONE of those is a full on aberration-filled ordeal.Phew! Here's a thought to lead slowing into using aboleths and aquatics: For lower levels, use your basic spellunking skills to open the adventure into dirty, disgusting things. You know, your basic slimes, oozes, jellies, puddings and what not.
Move into some gibbering mouther action and other nasties that work well in dim, dark and eventually wet caves or caverns. Then eventually it opens into a larger area where the aboleths can access and control some group from there. Maybe even some escaped fleshwarped creatures too.
Just a thought.
We could certainly do that. Of course, the fear there is that we'd be shooting ourself in the foot by leaving out players and GMs who want to start at 1st level.
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We could also come up with a brand new aberration race, but that's risky since if our new race ends up sucking, we've got an...
If anyone can create a brand new aberration that people would LOVE it's you guys.
Or if you're stuck for ideas just leave a tape-recorder next to Logue while he sleeps. I could just imagine the messed up things he says when he's not even aware of it :P
Phew! Here's a thought to lead slowing into using aboleths and aquatics: For lower levels, use your basic spellunking skills to open the adventure into dirty, disgusting things.You know, your basic slimes, oozes, jellies, puddings
...derro smut...
Move into some gibbering mouther action and other nasties that work well in dim, dark and eventually wet caves or caverns. Then eventually it opens into a larger area where the aboleths can access and control some group from there. Maybe even some escaped fleshwarped creatures too.
Ah, so you already know about the derro smut.
Or if you're stuck for ideas just leave a tape-recorder next to Logue while he sleeps. I could just imagine the messed up things he says when he's not even aware of it :P
The problem would be its rating. That stuff is only suitable for 100-year-olds. And then only if they're supervised by their parents. And a priest.
The big hurdle for aberrations is that they don’t have the same archetypal, iconic status that giants and elves do. The reason the beholder’s appearance in Shackled City was so effective is because 30 years of D&D had taught us that beholders were bad-ass. The Hounds of Tindalos in Runelords only have meaning to people who read Lovecraft. To new gamers or non-readers of Lovecraft, these critters are just critters. I wouldn’t hinge an entire Path on whether or not the players happened to have the right gaming or reading background to appreciate your monsters.
Off the top of my head, one way to make the enemy more horrifying is to affect the PCs directly in some way. Perhaps they themselves are slowly mutating from interaction with the Far Realm (or whatever). Maybe they’ve just woken up and discovered they’ve spent the past eight years as thralls to an aboleth and need to correct the acts they did under its control.
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The big hurdle for aberrations is that they don’t have the same archetypal, iconic status that giants and elves do. The reason the beholder’s appearance in Shackled City was so effective is because 30 years of D&D had taught us that beholders were bad-ass. The Hounds of Tindalos in Runelords only have meaning to people who read Lovecraft. To new gamers or non-readers of Lovecraft, these critters are just critters. I wouldn’t hinge an entire Path on whether or not the players happened to have the right gaming or reading background to appreciate your monsters.
I disagree, actually; aberrations DO have an iconic status, but that's not a status backed up by classic myth the way giants and elves and dragons are backed up. Aberrations are backed up by more recent writings; particularly those of Lovecraft, sure, but also by writers like Stephen King. And also to the movies, with creatures like the Thing and the Alien being quite well-known monsters among the gamer culture. The influence of these works is pretty strong... especially in said gamer culture.
I disagree, actually; aberrations DO have an iconic status, but that's not a status backed up by classic myth the way giants and elves and dragons are backed up. Aberrations are backed up by more recent writings; particularly those of Lovecraft, sure, but also by writers like Stephen King. And also to the movies, with creatures like the Thing and the Alien being quite well-known monsters among the gamer culture. The influence of these works is pretty strong... especially in said gamer culture.The big hurdle for aberrations is that they don’t have the same archetypal, iconic status that giants and elves do. The reason the beholder’s appearance in Shackled City was so effective is because 30 years of D&D had taught us that beholders were bad-ass. The Hounds of Tindalos in Runelords only have meaning to people who read Lovecraft. To new gamers or non-readers of Lovecraft, these critters are just critters. I wouldn’t hinge an entire Path on whether or not the players happened to have the right gaming or reading background to appreciate your monsters.
I have to take that a step further. I think within geek culture as a whole, Cthulhu himself is probable more Iconic than a beholder.
Certainly within culture as a whole cthulhu has more greater instant recognision than a beholder.
I have to take that a step further. I think within geek culture as a whole, Cthulhu himself is probable more Iconic than a beholder.
Certainly within culture as a whole cthulhu has more greater instant recognision than a beholder.
I would agree. How many Metalica songs mention beholders or beholder related mythos?
For my money, I would love to see more material or an AP tie in with either the Blackfire Adepts or the Coils of Ydersius to tie in with the .
I would agree. How many Metalica songs mention beholders or beholder related mythos?
Maybe I’m just not in tune with what the intended purpose is behind aberrations, then.
Are you looking at aberrations as recognizable alien horrors or are they alien horrors that the players have never seen before? Do you want an aberration-themed AP because aboleths and beholders are cool or is it because you want to face unknown horrors from alien realms?
Maybe I’m just not in tune with what the intended purpose is behind aberrations, then.
Are you looking at aberrations as recognizable alien horrors or are they alien horrors that the players have never seen before? Do you want an aberration-themed AP because aboleths and beholders are cool or is it because you want to face unknown horrors from alien realms?
I personally would want it because mind bending horrors that put lie to the very concept of sanity and show us how uncaring and queer the universe truely is, are quiet frankly cool.
Mythos horror was using many of the tropes and memes of modern cinema horror before horror films even became common.
The hills have Eyes = the dunwich horror and Shadow over Innsmouth
The Ring = The Hounds of Tindalos
The thing = At the mountains of madness
All of these films are examplers of common horror tropes which have earlier roots in the mythos.
It isn't the aboleths that is innately cool, it was always(in my oppinion) it cthonic qualities which made it cool, a reference to a deeply troubling strand of throught that runs through human culture.
It also has to be said that the mythos has a draw to it. If you say 'we are going to do a mythos inspired Adventure path, you can draw gamers from numerous traditions to your product, not just hard core DnD players.