I like the image of a party of adventurers trudging through a dungeon carrying torches, making sure to buy enough torches and oil to cover how long they think they will be underground. However, with the ready availability of the light cantrip, ordinary darkness is *never* an issue.
So, as could be expected, I dislike light being a cantrip that you can cast an infinite number of times per day because of this.
Now, on the flipside, I liked how in earlier editions you could use the light spell to affect the vision of a target.
So with that said, I have bumped it up to a 1st level spell and added text that says if it is cast as an attack upon a target the caster makes a ranged touch attack upon the target. If the attack succeeds then the target becomes Dazzled for the duration of the spell.
I like the image of a party of adventurers trudging through a dungeon carrying torches, making sure to buy enough torches and oil to cover how long they think they will be underground. However, with the ready availability of the light cantrip, ordinary darkness is *never* an issue.
So, as could be expected, I dislike light being a cantrip that you can cast an infinite number of times per day because of this.
I actually quite like this, as a DM and a player. However, there's another thread that points out that most cantrips do not scale with caster level, and the ones that do should be changed not to. (E.g. Prestidigitation has already been changed to 1 hour duration instead of 1 hour per level, and there is the suggestion that create water should be 2 gallons, instead of 2 gallons per level).
In that vein, I would suggest that Light should last only 10 minutes, instead of 10 minutes per level. This means that while there is unlimited light, it is only so long as a caster is around, and conscious. If the party is split up, non-casters will need to find a light source quickly.
This and also the hassle of "re-lighting" restores the value of things like 1 hour torches and 6 hour sun rods.
As long is it can be case a million times per day it still defeats the need for torches and/or lanterns. I want to be able to have low-level adventures have the effect of dark and creepy tombs, not just have infinite light everywhere. So much for mood when the sorcerer runs around like a beacon all day and all night.
As long is it can be case a million times per day it still defeats the need for torches and/or lanterns. I want to be able to have low-level adventures have the effect of dark and creepy tombs, not just have infinite light everywhere. So much for mood when the sorcerer runs around like a beacon all day and all night.
I think you said it right there.. a beacon.. for all the nasty little critters in caves that like to flutter around bright lights. :)
Dark and creepy is in the description, not the light sources they use. Torches are just as bright as the light spell.
Maybe limit a caster to one active Light effect at a time? That way one caster can't just keep four people lit up.
I also support limiting the duration to 10 minutes flat now that it can be re-cast at will.
Dark and creepy is in the description, not the light sources they use. Torches are just as bright as the light spell.
Torches burn out, or could be blown out, bringing fear and dread to the players. The light cantrip is all day, every day, no matter what.
I think reducing the duration to 10 minutes is very fitting.
Again though, if it can be cast a million times per day, it solves nothing.
Also remember that wizard, clerics and druids can only prepare a few cantrips per day. 4 MAX. Most will take detect magic so that only leave 3 other to pick even for high level casters. While Light would be at the top of the list not every caster will take it.
Yes, if you ask me, Light will always be on that list. Also, sorcerers do not prepare and can therefore cast it a million times per day.
I've got no problem with the duration going down to a flat 10 minutes, but regarding the "no worrying about light sources" issue . . . how long is it before adventurers can afford a 110 gold piece everburning torch?
Although, it might be interesting to have a focus for light spells, meaning that it costs money to get access to the light spell, and its possible for the caster to loose that focus. Its just a thought.
My players have been casting light left and right, and it hasn't altered the feeling of the games much for me. It has made some casters, like the bard, more valuable since someone has light available.
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I think reducing the duration to 10 minutes is very fitting.Again though, if it can be cast a million times per day, it solves nothing.
Also remember that wizard, clerics and druids can only prepare a few cantrips per day. 4 MAX. Most will take detect magic so that only leave 3 other to pick even for high level casters. While Light would be at the top of the list not every caster will take it.Yes, if you ask me, Light will always be on that list. Also, sorcerers do not prepare and can therefore cast it a million times per day.
I think the important phrase is "if you ask me". Not everyone will be using light as one of their 4 cantrips. I know my players and my characters haven't. Detect magic, guidance, resistance, and mage hand or mending, not to mention read magic are all also on the list of must haves (at lower levels) as well as ray of frost, acid splash, etc. for those casters that don't have a 1st level power from school or bloodline that does damage.
Yes, some will take light and have light all day, and as mentioned before, they're now the targets. Considering that torches cost 1 cp, or everburning torches cost 110gp, I don't see having a light spell all day as a big issue, unless you are so stingy passing out treasure that every cp counts.
I've got no problem with the duration going down to a flat 10 minutes, but regarding the "no worrying about light sources" issue . . . how long is it before adventurers can afford a 110 gold piece everburning torch?
Which is why I removed everburning torches from my world.
My players have been casting light left and right, and it hasn't altered the feeling of the games much for me. It has made some casters, like the bard, more valuable since someone has light available.
I'm saying I want darkness and/or fear of darkness to be an element in low level campaigns. Sure, the players/pcs get past that after a couple of levels, but at least initially I would like darkness to be an obstacle.
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I've got no problem with the duration going down to a flat 10 minutes, but regarding the "no worrying about light sources" issue . . . how long is it before adventurers can afford a 110 gold piece everburning torch?
And if you're playing through RotRL (I don't know if this is just our DM or if they really are as plentiful as we've found) there are plenty of them around. And well there should be - it's a simple spell, a simple item to create, and it holds back the thing that humans (and, in a fantasy milieu, other goodly races) fear the most: the dark.
Although, it might be interesting to have a focus for light spells, meaning that it costs money to get access to the light spell, and its possible for the caster to loose that focus. Its just a thought.
Personally, I like light the way it is. But this is an interesting idea. Maybe not even a focus, but a very inexpensive component (though not inexpensive enough to be eschewed). Although, as you pointed out, a magic item that lasts forever is only 110gp. It's clear that light is something the designers (rightfully so, IMO) want to be very easy to get at.
My players have been casting light left and right, and it hasn't altered the feeling of the games much for me. It has made some casters, like the bard, more valuable since someone has light available.
It was one of those things we kind of handwaved most of the time anyway, unless the encounter or situation specifically revolved around there being darkness. We generally assumed that one of the casters had light or continual flame, or someone had torches... it was never a level of bookkeeping we wanted to get into (though in the old days we were more strict, of course :).
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It limits the use of a light spell by characters other than the caster. The spell would only last 10 minutes after the last time you left the casters presence. So if the party gets split up then they have limited light. How creepy is it know that in 5 minutes your light will fade away and you forget to bring torches cuz you were so used to the wizard providing light.
That's such a perfect horror movie image, there. The Wizard is unconscious, or missing, and the light spell is fading, and you can hear the Ghouls shuffling closer in the darkness...
How creepy is it know that in 5 minutes your light will fade away and you forget to bring torches cuz you were so used to the wizard providing light.
As for light being always one of the spells a spellcaster will take you said your self several times you want "a fear of the dark" to have an effect at lower levels. at lower levels you have even fewer than 4 zero level spells availible. Yes light will be high on that list but so will Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Detect Posion, Mending, Guidance, I even include Prestidigitation and Message in that list as most of my casters never leave home without those extremely useful spells. They can carry lanterns for light if nessesary. If you players never choose to prepare other spells in place of light perhaps you could introduce encounters and challenges where those other spells would be useful. Message is an awesome spell in any game involving intrigue and social interation. Detect posion would be very useful if you use some low-powered or weak posions against low level characters. Prestidigitation is the ultimate utility spell. My characters use it to clean spilled food on their clothes, dry themselves after falling in a river, spicing up that cheap bland broth the local inn serves. If I was a wizard I would never NOT prepare Prestidigitation.
Exactly. That would be awesome if the group ever split up, but I have an advanced group of players who know better than to ever split up. Not to mention that the player in question almost invariably plays sorcerers, so remember, he doesn't have to pick which spells to memorize, so there's never an issue of "hmmm should I mem message or light?"
Also, if you are willing to house rule everburnig torches out of your game then I dont see any reason why you cant just house rule a change to the Light Spell.
I've already done that, that's what I mentioned in my first post. I changed it to 1st level and allowed it to be used to dazzle targets, as it used to be able to do. I think that in return for increasing its level the ability to use it an offensive capacity (again, tieing it back to its roots) was a good house rule. If it won't get changed officially then I'll be more than happy to keep using my house rule. Ultimately however, my goal was to reduce the number of house rules I have and if thats done by converting a house rule into an official rule then so much the better. If not, oh well.
I like the spell the way it is.
My players use it on all kinds of items, to be able to toss them in large areas, to be able to see a bit better. Some examples are rocks, copper pieces, arrows and bolts.
They get the "afraid of the dark" feeling from the noise they hear, from the shadows seeming to move, from the light fading, from the light suddenly going out....
The light suddenly going out could be several things, being covered, being eaten (I like this one, especially when the characters see the open mouth, throat and teeth before the light goes out), being dispelled, etc...
DM:
"You see before you a dark hole, a faint dripping sound can be heard from within. You have traveled through the woods all day to reach this spot in the ravine the old folks in the village spoke tales about. You recall hearing that the hole was so dark that nothing could be seen within. A chill passes up each of your spines as you all, in turn, peer nervously towards the hole opening up in the mossy ground before you. Morgas, the ranger, has neatly tied a rope to a nearby tree and made sure it is tight, and dropped the other end down into the hole. It is unknown how far this hole descends. Each of you gathers your gear and prepares to climb down the rope, afraid of what lurks in the shadows below."
Sorcerer:
"I cast light into the hole on the rope."
DM:
(frazle mrazzl $#%^^&@!) "The hole is about 30' wide appears empty."
All players together:
(all fear gone) "We climb down."
DM:
(flavor and fear and mood = gone)
That's what I want to fix. Of course, that doesn't even have anything to do with the fact that light can be cast 1,000,000 times per day. But maybe, if it were a 1st level spell, and could not be cast so many times, that situation MIGHT come up now and then. As it is now, mundane darkness will *NEVER* be an issue.
As I said, I can (and have) house ruled this in my campaigns. I'm just surprised no one else seems to care as much about this as I do.
Light is a point souce, like a torch. It won't make the whole rope glow, just the point the caster touched. They still won't see what's at the bottom of the hole.
My players have been casting light left and right, and it hasn't altered the feeling of the games much for me. It has made some casters, like the bard, more valuable since someone has light available.
One thing I don't care for with the "unlimited cantrips" rule is that there's a temptation now to spam the good ones (like Guidance, Detect Magic or Light) every round.
Casting Continual Light on your helmet is one thing, but using the Dancing Lights cantrip every round to have 36 torches lighting up everything in a 110' radius is a little ridiculous (IMO).
Sorcerer:
"I cast light into the hole on the rope."DM:
(frazle mrazzl $#%^^&@!) "The hole is about 30' wide appears empty."All players together:
(all fear gone) "We climb down."
DM:
As you are climbing down the rope, the light above suddenly goes out, well before it should have.Mood still in place
<snip>
That's what I want to fix. Of course, that doesn't even have anything to do with the fact that light can be cast 1,000,000 times per day. But maybe, if it were a 1st level spell, and could not be cast so many times, that situation MIGHT come up now and then. As it is now, mundane darkness will *NEVER* be an issue.
so what?? Dancing lights will do the trick also, can be moved 100' per round, 1/day for a gnome
how many deep dark holes did you have in mind per day?
Casting Continual Light on your helmet is one thing, but using the Dancing Lights cantrip every round to have 36 torches lighting up everything in a 110' radius is a little ridiculous (IMO).
it could be limited to 1 casting:
as long as the duration of the first casting is not over you can't cast a second one, or the second casting automatically dismisses the first casting
Casting Continual Light on your helmet is one thing, but using the Dancing Lights cantrip every round to have 36 torches lighting up everything in a 110' radius is a little ridiculous (IMO).it could be limited to 1 casting:
as long as the duration of the first casting is not over you can't cast a second one, or the second casting automatically dismisses the first casting
Yeah, I think the idea of having unlimited short-duration cantrips is inferior to having a limited number of cantrips which last the whole day (if you want). The idea of casting the same spell over and over and over again is tiresome (IMO).
Yeah, I think the idea of having unlimited short-duration cantrips is inferior to having a limited number of cantrips which last the whole day (if you want). The idea of casting the same spell over and over and over again is tiresome (IMO).
I couldn't agree more. I think the entire concept of unlimited casting cantrips is a dangerous potential mess that is fraught with potential abuses and game changing scenarios. I'm all for the concept of letting spell casters have some spells they can cast over and over again (like choose 1 offense, 1 defense, and 1 utility spell per day of 0 level, and that spell can be cast repeatedly). If the player really chooses light as his utility spell thats fine but at least he is not choosing that AND every other cantrip to cast 1,000,000 times per day.
I think the concept of casting unlimited 0 level spells was to address the lack of spell slots for low level casters. I don't think it is the best solution as I agree that it may open up potentially more problems than it supposedly fixes and it cheapens the versimilitude of magic IMO. If you percieve the lack of spell options for low level casters to be a problem, I think there are better solutions.
In regards to the light spell specifically, I think it should be said how large of an object or volume of space it will actually affect. Right now it works on a fishook and a 20' x 10' x 10' obelisk equally. Pretty darn good for a 0 level spell. There are other abuses I'm sure.
It certainly has the potential to change the whole dynamic of low level play, much like the everburning torch did from 2E to 3E.
It certainly has the potential to change the whole dynamic of low level play, much like the everburning torch did from 2E to 3E.
Huh? The spell Continual Light had been around for a long, long time; 3E didn't invent anything new. In fact, they probably made it less common by adding a non-trivial spell component cost to Continual Flame.
Huh? The spell Continual Light had been around for a long, long time; 3E didn't invent anything new. In fact, they probably made it less common by adding a non-trivial spell component cost to Continual Flame.
Everburning torch costs 110gp in 3.5E
Continual light cast by an NPC costs 500gp in 1E[edit]Sunrods cost 2gp in 3.5E - yeesh[/edit]
Everburning torch costs 110gp in 3.5E
Continual light cast by an NPC costs 500gp in 1E
But . . . it was free if the party wizard or cleric cast it . . . just saying.
My group has been playtesting these rules since the Alpha, with various characters, and one of the first changes some of the classes got, even before the classes got their full write up, was the unlimted cantrips.
It hasn't really changed the feel of any of our games, though obviously others may disagree. While I don't agree that various at will cantrips have become annoying (I guess my players just haven't used them that way), I would think it would be more logical to address the cantrips that seem to be problematic rather than scrap the whole system.
But . . . it was free if the party wizard or cleric cast it . . . just saying.
Sure. But the fighter, rogue, monk etc couldn't just run up to the local wal-mart and grab a pack of twelve everburning torches along with 10 lbs of gooey bags and thunder-whatsits. Those would have been considered magic items not available at normal shops. By having them listed in the common goods and services section of the equipment lists (as opposed to a magic-item section) players assume they can run out and grab those things by the pound.
Sunrods. 2gp. Illuminates 30' radius for 6 hrs. What? Are these magic items? If these are the same as those cheesey glowy toys they sell at inflated prices at carnivals to kids then as far as I know those weren't invented until the 20th century, probably involved a great deal of r&d and costs to develop, and don't work 1/10th as well as the stats suggest. Believe me, with three kids I've bought enough of those junky things. You break them in half, they glow faintly for a couple of ours, then are done. Is that what sunrods are based on? And why WOULDN'T every PC have a backpack full of them?
Sunrods are not magic, they're alchemical. You know, alchemy? It's sort of like chemistry except it doesn't have to work in the real world. (Last time I checked, glow-sticks don't have gold in them, either.)
Also, everburning torches are still considered magic items: they're filed under Wondrous Items except they don't need a feat to make. (On the other hand, they're dispelable.)
Yes, they're also under the good and services section. I'm not sure it should be, but it is also under magic items.
If your objection is to Sunrods, then your problem isn't with the Light spell, you just have a very different expectations of the game.
I like sunrods, because unlike a torch, it's not just plain worse than a Light or Continual Flame spell (barring anti-magic, of course).
Sunrods are not magic, they're alchemical. You know, alchemy? It's sort of like chemistry except it doesn't have to work in the real world. (Last time I checked, glow-sticks don't have gold in them, either.)
I get that. However, I'm just saying, from my perspective, there are so many cheap ways to get around darkness, that darkness is never really a threat or an issue. I wish it was, but I can see that I am in a very small minority on this one. All I want is that for low level adventurers they have to overcome simpler obstacles and have simpler obstacles being sometimes difficult to overcome. One of those obstacles is darkness, another would be food and shelter, another would be ammunition. Ammunition is fairly easy, you just have to stick to the rules and make sure the players actually mark off the shots as they use them. Food and shelter are less easy to overcome than darkness but not impossible. My point, once again, is simply that at low levels (say 1-3 or so) I would like to be able to have mundane things be challenging, so that when they hit mid-levels (4-?) they can look back on how much trouble they had with the mundane things and see how far they have come. Now, instead of being challenged by a dark cave, they are challenged by how to get to the top of the cliff where the giants are pelting them with rocks. Its the sense of advancement and accomplishment that I like to instill in players, which is also why I don't like characters just starting at higher level or running high power high fantasy games. Maybe thats just me and my preferences, who knows.
If your objection is to Sunrods, then your problem isn't with the Light spell, you just have a very different expectations of the game.
I like sunrods, because unlike a torch, it's not just plain worse than a Light or Continual Flame spell (barring anti-magic, of course).
My objection is to cheap, easy, and ready access to long-term light sources at low levels. I don't have an issue with them overall, I'd just prefer that 1) light wasn't able to be cast 1,000,000 times per day and 2) that maybe, just maybe, low level pcs had to worry about mundane things.
I appreciate that some people may prefer to never have to worry about annoying things like darkness, food, shelter, ammunition, water, encumbrance, etc, but I think those things are in the game for a reason. The unfortunate part is basically all of it gets hand-waved anyway. So we are clear, I also hand-wave these things after a few levels, just not levels 1-3 or so.
Meh. I think the complaint here focuses on different, not worse. Sure, being forced to carry around torches for the first level or three mimics certain movies we've seen. But... having a mage or two who can just wave a hand, speak some odd phrase and poof, abolish the darkness... that's high fantasy. Yes it's mechanically more powerful, but not in a meaningful way. It's only a style difference.
You know, it might be interesting to throw the odd antimagic zone or even a living spell that dispels at very, very low-level just to make things interesting. Imagine your players who RELY on the copper piece of light technique walking into a fight where their lights JUST DON'T WORK. Do that at 1st or 2nd and it won't severely gimp the party either because they won't have constant buffs up to get angry about losing.
As with many Pathfinder changes, this change just encourages a DM to think outside the box. I vote for leaving it as is.
I like the image of a party of adventurers trudging through a dungeon carrying torches, making sure to buy enough torches and oil to cover how long they think they will be underground. However, with the ready availability of the light cantrip, ordinary darkness is *never* an issue. So, as could be expected, I dislike light being a cantrip that you can cast an infinite number of times per day because of this.
I have heard this complaint from a couple of others. I tend to agree it is a bit much, but as someone else mentioned already, not everyone takes Light... though I do. Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, <1 other> is usually my selection.
You want to see a slightly bigger problem? Look at DAZE...failed Will Save = 1 round no actions... Casts at will. Sure, they can still defend themselves, but they can't move, attack, or even speak(as a Free Action is still an action). It is possible to Daze-Lock someone, kinda strong for a cantrip.
Now, on the flipside, I liked how in earlier editions you could use the light spell to affect the vision of a target.
I use to love the attack ability of Continual Light. It gave Clerics an offensive capacity through utility. The 2 arcade games made good use of the Continual Light spell as a blinding mechanic.
I have heard this complaint from a couple of others. I tend to agree it is a bit much, but as someone else mentioned already, not everyone takes Light... though I do. Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, <1 other> is usually my selection.
You want to see a slightly bigger problem? Look at DAZE...failed Will Save = 1 round no actions... Casts at will. Sure, they can still defend themselves, but they can't move, attack, or even speak(as a Free Action is still an action). It is possible to Daze-Lock someone, kinda strong for a cantrip.
The Bard in my campaign took Daze when he had only one cantrip, and then took Message as his second cantrip, and now Light as his third....
During combats, especially since we have seven characters, he generally either uses his Bardic performance, or Daze, Daze, Daze.....
During exploration, he casts two Message (they are third level now) every thirty minutes and the party keeps in constant contact with him as the focus....
However, I like the idea of unlimited castings. I just make light in underground portions of the game a beacon to wandering monsters, and enforce the time limits of the spells.
-- david
Papa.DRB
In regards to the light spell specifically, I think it should be said how large of an object or volume of space it will actually affect. Right now it works on a fishook and a 20' x 10' x 10' obelisk equally. Pretty darn good for a 0 level spell. There are other abuses I'm sure.
This spell causes an object to glow like a torch, shedding bright light in a 20-foot radius (and dim light for an additional 20 feet) from the point you touch. The effect is immobile, but it can be cast on a movable object.
I think the wording is key. It says from the point you touch, not the whole object.
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But . . . it was free if the party wizard or cleric cast it . . . just saying.
Everburning torch costs 110gp in 3.5E
Continual light cast by an NPC costs 500gp in 1E
Yeah, once the Cleric can cast it, it's common as dirt.
I had a Cleric/Wizard research Continual Warmth as well, so that she could hand out copper coins enchanted to be usable as light sources and heat sources in local communities (she had bags full of them, fortunately a hundred continual lights in a bag don't get any brighter than a single continual light or she would have been permanantly blinded the first time she opened the bag!), imprinted with the face of her goddess.
Free advertising and a token 'good deed' as she provided free light and heat to communities that might otherwise struggle through a harsh winter.
And then there was the free booze and alchemical supplies that one could get from Metamorphose Liquids...
Everburning torch costs 110gp in 3.5E
Continual light cast by an NPC costs 500gp in 1E
[edit]Sunrods cost 2gp in 3.5E - yeesh[/edit]
Kinda like the 10' pole and ladder thing.
"Smokestick" 1/2 lb, 20gp (almost equal to the value of gold by weight)
"Sunrod" iron rod with gold cap, 2 gp (actually is gold, costs almost nothing)
"Smokestick" 1/2 lb, 20gp (almost equal to the value of gold by weight)
"Sunrod" iron rod with gold cap, 2 gp (actually is gold, costs almost nothing)
you'd think that by now someone would have invented the "Replacable Sunrod Tip"
keep the iron rod and just replace the bloody tip when its used upfor savings in recources at fabrication and weight during adventuring
Keeping track of lighting is such a pain in the butt that it's not worth the effort for the party to not have ready access to magical light whenever they want it.
I mean seriously, if your party has a darkvision-packin' PC race like a dwarf or half-orc, your gloomy dark hole is gone anyways. Trying to make a dark hole spooky for only the non-darkvision PCs is more trouble than it's worth.
Still, I'm okay with your solution to make light a first level spell that can blind opponents. That was fun in 2e and I'm sure it'd still be fun today.
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I personally don't have a problem with it, but I think a good solution for those who want things to stay dark is to make the Light spell require concentration. That way, it can still be useful for exploration or when the Party needs some light, but if the Wizard wants to do anything else, the Party better have some torches handy!
D&D isn't medieval fantasy. Not if you actually take into consideration the spells and items available.
D&D is more like modern day technology, if magic existed (and therefore science had leaned towards magical innovation rather than mechanical).
Think of what we have today... drinking water whenever we want. Fairly easy access to basic forms of curatives (and depending on where you live, still easy access to emergency healing).
The idea that a well prepared adventuring group is going to be set back by a quick draft putting out their torches, is like assuming that the spelunking group today would be set back by the same things.
We have flashlights, lamps, those lights that can flip open and fit around your head leaving your hands free... battery operated, or even those windup ones (although they make sound when winding). We have glowsticks, glow in the dark material in all shapes and sizes, and probably a number of things I can't think of off the top of my head.
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Minimalist Horror is simply not a theme that D&D can create without cutting out a lot of the Magic. "Scared of the Dark" is just not something that is on most adventurer's resumes.
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However, I feel that simply not allowing more than 1 active light at a time (requires at least that little concentration) would solve the problem of "lighting up the whole dungeon".
It's still a fairly small amount of light... and I've found that having some light to see just a small piece of the horror in front of them makes their imagination go wild with what isn't seen. Far more effective.
IMO, the problem is not light, etc. spells, but the nerf to darkness, etc. spells. The PFRPG version is pretty worthless for a 2nd level spell (does not affect darkvision and either normal or magical light sources); deeper darkness is only slightly better (non-magical light doesn't work), but it's a 3rd level spell. As it stands, a 0-level spell that can be cast at will beats a 2nd and 3rd level spell.
If darkness would affect non-magical light sources and light from lower level spells (i.e., dancing lights, light; possibly even continual flame, although reducing the illumination to just a 5 ft radius might work), that would be better. Also, deeper darkness should affect darkvision, even if darkness doesn't.
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If darkness would affect non-magical light sources and light from lower level spells (i.e., dancing lights, light; possibly even continual flame, although reducing the illumination to just a 5 ft radius might work), that would be better. Also, deeper darkness should affect darkvision, even if darkness doesn't.
I agree wholeheartedly. The "arms race" between Light and Darkness spells is completely blown away by the Light side. Let's rev up the Darkness side of things!
We have flashlights, lamps, those lights that can flip open and fit around your head leaving your hands free... battery operated, or even those windup ones (although they make sound when winding). We have glowsticks, glow in the dark material in all shapes and sizes, and probably a number of things I can't think of off the top of my head.
We still don't have the ability to control 36 floating flashlights with brainwaves alone, though. :-)
We still don't have the ability to control 36 floating flashlights with brainwaves alone, though. :-)
And you can't do so with the cantrip light either. It is immobile, but can be cast on an object that can be moved.
If darkness would affect non-magical light sources and light from lower level spells (i.e., dancing lights, light; possibly even continual flame, although reducing the illumination to just a 5 ft radius might work), that would be better. Also, deeper darkness should affect darkvision, even if darkness doesn't.
Over in the Darkness thread, Jason Bulmahn has stated that these changes are already in the works.
Areas of continuous darkness and deeper darkness (via enchanted items at 2x3x2000x2=24,000gp and 3x5x2000x1.5=45,000gp or "permanent effects" by GM fiat) will help rein in the overabundance/usefulness of magical light.
We still don't have the ability to control 36 floating flashlights with brainwaves alone, though. :-)And you can't do so with the cantrip light either. It is immobile, but can be cast on an object that can be moved.
I'm talking about Dancing Lights.
I'm talking about Dancing Lights.We still don't have the ability to control 36 floating flashlights with brainwaves alone, though. :-)And you can't do so with the cantrip light either. It is immobile, but can be cast on an object that can be moved.
And I'm talking about people with the level of technological advancement the equivalent of today, only in magic instead of mechanical, being susceptible to the type of horror being described in this thread.
Sure, a magic spell allows for controlling a bunch of lights at once by thought alone. If anything, that shows how with magic the standard adventurer in D&D is far and beyond simple "oh no, it's dark!" horror themes.
My analogy was to point out that you can't do the same kind of theme of horror when the "heroes" are allowed the opportunity of accessing something as simple as a Walmart before they head into the cave.
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Horror movies today get through this by stripping the hero of all access to the things they would normally have access to if prepared.
If you want to do something like this in a D&D camapaign, you'll have to do the equivalent: remove spellcasters, or their ability to cast spells, and make them lose any items as well (contrived dropping of the backpack down the endless pit, etc).
Basically, if you want this kind of horror, you have to approach the game like you would writing a story with current day resources in mind.
If darkness would affect non-magical light sources and light from lower level spells (i.e., dancing lights, light; possibly even continual flame, although reducing the illumination to just a 5 ft radius might work), that would be better. Also, deeper darkness should affect darkvision, even if darkness doesn't.Over in the Darkness thread, Jason Bulmahn has stated that these changes are already in the works.
Areas of continuous darkness and deeper darkness (via enchanted items at 2x3x2000x2=24,000gp and 3x5x2000x1.5=45,000gp or "permanent effects" by GM fiat) will help rein in the overabundance/usefulness of magical light.
I'm actually surprised, because I thought it already worked like this. I guess I'm remembering 3.0e? 2e?
This would actually go a long way towards the "removing access to proper tools" thing.
D&D isn't medieval fantasy. Not if you actually take into consideration the spells and items available...
We have flashlights, lamps, those lights that can flip open and fit around your head leaving your hands free... battery operated, or even those windup ones (although they make sound when winding). We have glowsticks, glow in the dark material in all shapes and sizes, and probably a number of things I can't think of off the top of my head.
All we need is the magical/alchemical equivalent of duct tape. =)