RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Problem #1:
- You're a wizard specializing in necromancy.
- Most Necromantic spells bear [Evil] descriptor.
- You want to play Good or Neutral Necromancer.How to reconcile this?
For now, we have ruled that creation of primitive Undead (mindless) is not Evil if Elemental spirit is used to animate the corpse (i.e. the caster states at the casting time: I choose to use Elemental spirit).
Other Necromancy [Evil] spells of note:
Contagion.
Create Undead.Problem #2:
- You're a wizard specializing in necromancy.
- You want to control Undead.
- Lowest control Undead spell is available at 13th level (Control Undead). Until then the best you can do is use Animate Dead to create a zombie.
- Cleric can Channel Negative Energy from 1st level onwards.How to reconcile this?
Replace 8th level ability with Channel Negative Energy as per Evil/Neutral Cleric of appropriate level.
Regards,
Ruemere
I'm not saying your basic premise is wrong, since there aren't enough non-evil necromancy spells, but there are some good ones. Ray of enfeeblement, the various fear spells, false life, and eyebite (which pathfinder removed the evil descriptor from!).
In addition, there is the 2nd level spell command undead, which lasts 1 day/level and is not evil. So you can as an arcane necromancer start bossing around undead as early as 3rd level.
Ruemere, you're looking over two important facts of command undead, lack of hit die limit and lack of saving throw for nonintelligent undead.
Ruemere, you're looking over two important facts of command undead, lack of hit die limit and lack of saving throw for nonintelligent undead.
You want the ultimate, uber undead master? Mystic theurge, 7th level cleric/3rd level necro-wizard/10th level mystic theurge.
Undead Machine!
Command Undead: HD limit still applies, it's just not explicitly mentioned in spell description. Nonintelligent undead have low Will saves anyway.
Regards,
Ruemere
Could you please quote the rules or point me to the right direction regarding the control limit applying to command undead?
As for nonintelligent undead and will saves, see zombie and skeleton. Notice that not one of statted monsters behind those links has a fortitude or reflex save higher than their will save.
That Gray render zombie example is comparing CR 6 creature with 20th level caster. If the caster had any problems controlling the monster I'd be concerned that channel energy is not good enough for undead controlling purposes. Also, a necromancer can grab his own gray render zombie at 3rd level(assuming command undead doesn't follow channel energy's rules) when a cleric has to wait until 10th level to create one(assuming animate dead doesn't follow channel energy rules) or 20th to grab one with channel energy.
This is a very broad statement. Until now, under 3.5 and until this passage in PFRPG Beta, I have assumed that Animate Dead (4 HD/level), Control Undead (2HD/Level), and Channel Negative Energy (1 HD/level) operate under separate rules for control limits. Now, it seems like there is an attempt to bring it together under a single limit.Necromancy School
Specialist Bonus: You can control 8 HD worth of undead
creatures per caster level.
Thanks for the explanation. Some rules do not support this conclusion.
Animate Dead
This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead
skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.
The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack
any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They
remain animated until they are destroyed. A destroyed skeleton or
zombie can’t be animated again.
Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell,
you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level
with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles
this limit.
The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No
matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control
only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed
this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and
any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. You
choose which creatures are released. If you are a cleric, any undead you
might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead
do not count toward the limit.
Skeletons A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse
or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a
corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse.
The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.
The bolded part states that channel energy control limit is separate from animate dead control limit.
If the control limits are brought under a single limit, it would be great to have this spelled out in the final product and if not, it'd be nice to know which control limit the necromancer ability counts towards.
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Edit: I thought about the necromancer control limit for a while, and I think it only applies to animate dead control limit.
First, animate dead states that animate dead control limit is different from channel energy control limit.
Second, necromancers don't generally have channel energy. As a matter of fact, they generally have only animate dead control limit to worry about. In this case the necromancer specialist bonus would most likely apply only to animate dead control limit.
Control undead was listed as a third control limit in 3.5, but it does not have a hard limit in the same manner as channel energy (1 HD / level) and animate dead(4 HD / level). For control undead, the limit is 2 HD / level per casting, and one could have two control undead spells running at the same time for double number of undead controlled.)
Not every player wants to play the type of Necromancer that has a horde of corpses following them around.
There should just be more Necromancy spells that explore other options of the school. There are lots of themes to Necromancers, and these need to be expanded.
All without the [Evil] descriptor of course!
I've always viewed Negative Energy to be an Evil force, and that anything that it animates becomes a slavering monster that hungers for destruction and slaughter. Even Skeletons and Zombies - barely sentient as they are - will run amok and try to murder anything that crosses their path unless they are enslaved or destroyed. Evil Clerics don't Command Undead so much as they restrain them from trying to kill everything living that they encounter.
What we really need are some undead creatures and spells that involve the usage of Positive Energy. But that runs counter to traditional fantasy tropes, so this idea has pretty much been thrown by the wayside.
The Eberron setting has Deathless creatures that are basically positive-powered Undead. I believe they originally come from Book of Exalted Deeds, but I'm not certain.
Alas, aside from Eberron, most Necromancers get pigeonholed into the same old tropes. But that being said, I do understand the logic behind the usage of Negative Energy and why it results in this pigeonholing.