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I think the Cleric needs a bit more throughout their levels. I'm not looking for new powers and game breaking stuff, but just little tweeks.
Nature Sense type thing for Diplomacy and Sense Motive?
Perhaps Brew Potion as a bonus feat at like 4t or 7th level?
A small scalling Save bonus vs Outsiders?
Any other thoughts or ideas here?
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Also is the Domain powers it for the 20th level capstone? Seems like everyone else gets an "that is freaking awesome" ability or lifting of a major restriction. Master Hunter, becomeing an outsider, using an ability at will, etc. . .
Well I guess Sorcerers and Wizards don't either, but they get some pretty good awesomeness.
clerics are way powerful as is they need nothing else. Take the domains away if you plan to give them anything else.
heh it amuses me with all the cry's of nerf the wizard we have a class that get
*2 good saves
* a good bab
* Full casting
*channel
* 2 domains
*heavy armor
*ok weapon selection
yeah the poor porr cleric.
Sorry man it is one of the best classes in the game hands down. If it gains anything else it would be more over the top then it is now
at lest they took some spells from it and brought it in a little
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Your right, it gets all those things.
Now lets look at the list that everyone conveniently forgets that they alone do not get pretty much exclusively. (at least in 3.0+)
1.) Variety.
*2.) Respect from other players/classes and primarily from designers.
*3.) Lack many decent Prestige Classes with a few notable exceptions.
4.) The ability to be played without specific restrictions only the Paladin shares, (depending on the world).
*5.) The ability to be different than the majority of others of their class mechanically.
6.) A good starting Race.
* Yet to actually be fixed.
Another concept that people don't really consider when thinking of the Cleric is most of their abilities, while they do look good, are actually twice as good for the party as a whole. Take away their "ok weapons", A.C., and Saves, and it's not the Cleric that is going to get hurt so much, it's everyone else that the Cleric doesn't heal/buff/protect. Imagine the Cleric getting hit with poisons and Fort Save Attack and failing most of them. "Well, sorry everyone else with a low Fort, your just going to have to die or sit out another adventure, because I just healed myself up and nothing left for you".
Especially in pathfinder now, every Class has gotten some nice little boosts, except the Cleric. Domains have just changed slightly. Some better, some just different, some worse, but being one of the two only class features, that still means you get nothing between 2nd and 19th Levels.
Channel Energy has had similar, and better rule options for a long, long time. I like the way it is, but once again, not something new, just slightly different.
I'm not saying I want a new super power. Really all I was looking for are some new little tricks to fill out the empty class levels.
clerics need no boosts, they did get some but if they got much better they would need no party just send the cleric.
I do think the spells need unnerfed but the classes needs no boost
Not tr4ying to be snarky man , but if ya want more ability they need a nerf then.
Creative Director
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Clerics are my second favorite class to play (after bards), so it's fair to say that not ALL designers hate them! :) Taking some of the cons listed above, let's see how things break down...
1.) Variety.
Any campaign that has a robust selection of deities has built-in variety for clerics. Golarion is no exception; a cleric of Sarenrae is going to be very different than a cleric of Gozreh or a cleric of Gorum, for example. And when you factor in the additional variations in flavor and crunch that we're introducing in Pathfinder's series of deity articles and the recently released Gods & Magic book, this class has arguably gotten the MOST attention out of any class as far as Paizo products are concerned.
*2.) Respect from other players/classes and primarily from designers.
This one I don't get. Clerics get a lot of respect in the games I've taken part in. Not universally, no, but what class does? As for "respect from designers," I point again to the fact that the class has had more support in Pathfinder products than any other class; in Gods & Magic, there's a whole book dedicated to stuff they can do.
*3.) Lack many decent Prestige Classes with a few notable exceptions.
This is not as much a problem with clerics as it is with all spellcasters; prestige classes have classically not fit well with spellcasting classes, since for a LONG time they didn't bother playing to the strength of a spellcaster (spell advancement) in the way that they play to BAB advancement. Part of the PF RPG's goal is to make the base classes more attractive, of course, and that should help somewhat. And again, I should point out that of the prestige classes Paizo has published, a lot of them are cleric-compatible.
4.) The ability to be played without specific restrictions only the Paladin shares, (depending on the world).
This is a GM problem, to a certain extent, in that some GMs are just too controlling and use alignments not as a tool but as a leash and a way to punish players. That said, with Golarion's 20 core deities (and the additional 30-some deities introduced in Gods & Magic), there SHOULD be a deity for every player. Picking the right deity to the type of character you want to play shouldn't be a problem.
*5.) The ability to be different than the majority of others of their class mechanically.
Again... the different domains go a long way toward making clerics different, as does the choice of channeling positive or negative energy. If you want a class that's got a problem being mechanically different from others of their class, look to the rogue, sorcerer, monk, bard, barbarian, paladin, ranger, or druid. In the PF RPG, we're trying to address those problems with the introduciton of things like rage powers, arcane schools, sorcerer bloodlines, etc. And guess what? The model for a lot of those expansions has been the domain system for clerics.
6.) A good starting Race.
As much as I dislike them, dwarves make a very good starting race for clerics, especially in the Pathfinder RPG. Half-elves and humans make good choices too.
Anyway, I frankly don't see that the six points listed above are really problems. In 3.5, the cleric was arguably the most powerful class (the druid was the only one that really gave it a run for the money). Is the problem, perhaps, that the Pathfinder RPG kept the cleric at about its same level of power but increased the other classes to match?
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Creative Director
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Also, I wasn't trying to be snarky in my last post. I'm just honestly not convinced that clerics are underpowered.
But a thought occurred to me: More than ANY other class, the cleric depends on campaign flavor. They're tied to deities, both flavor-wise and mechanics-wise. If you have a setting that has anemic support of deities, then clerics suffer as well. And in a core rules system like the Pathfinder RPG, we don't have the room to go into MUCH detail about deities, since they're so tied into world specifics, unlike feats or arcane schools or bloodlines. Maybe it's an artificial construction, but it's generally viewed that things like feats and rage powers and favored enemies and other non-cleric mechanics are "generic" and easily portable between campaigns, whereas deities are not. That's a big reason why we spent a huge chapter in the campaign setting talking about religion and deities, and why the first book to overtly support a specific type of class to be released for the setting was the one for clerics: Gods & Magic.
the issue is man if ya add something , something needs to go then. They are one of the most well balanced and powerful classes anyhow.
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Maybe in a combat heavy game. In a social/intrigue game or a skill heavy game, they suck, even at the few things they should be good at. Now granted, they have a few more skills now. Sense Motive jumps out as a finely . . ., and some of the skills are not lumped together which is an indirect improvement in the social case.
Seriously, What I am thinking about comes directly from other similar classes like the Monk and Druid's non-combative abilities. I am just making some suggestions, and I don't mean that a Cleric should get all of these.
A +1 to heal checks every like 5 levels, and maybe something like a speed healing, (Certain uses as a Move action rather than a Standard Action).
Maybe a +1/4 Levels to damage with Holy (Unholy) Water. Does anyone even use this stuff after like 3rd level anyway?
Maybe a slight save bonus against one or more of Outsiders, Elementals, and/or Undead.
Maybe a +2 to Sense Motive similar to Nature Sense.
no to all of that unless ya give up a domain. I do think they should have 4 skill points per level.
No one should have just 2 , it makes them more or less useless out of combat.
Edit: those might work out fine for some gods, but a cleric is kinda a blank slate. You dont want to give them powers that cant be used across the broad for all gods. Many of your suggested powers just don't work for many gods.
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While I really like PF's Gods and Magic, I would also enjoy seeing PRCs based on the various gods as well. WoTC did fairly well with the limited FR-specific PRCs, but never seemed to truly embrace the idea. You are right that Clerics are very campaign specific, more than any other class, and PRCs aimed at them should reflect that.
What I would really like to see is a PFRPG version of cleric or faith based PRCs, much like the old deity-specific 2nd Edition "kits" found in the old Warriors and Priests of the Realms.
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. I do think they should have 4 skill points per level. No one should have just 2 , it makes them more or less useless out of combat.
I agree. Why the Cleric, paladin and Wizard (all learned people) should be penalized at skill points is beyond me. And as for the Fighter, where is his ability for variety outside of combat? Customize with feats, cookie cutter with available skills. The new rules on cross-class skills does help a little, but what about the player that wants his character to have a background that is un-fighter like?
Example:
A Fighter PC in my last game had come from a long line of Wizards. He was trained and schooled to understand how magic worked. Unfortunately, he had no ability to master it. I allowed the player to add Knowledge: Arcana to his skill list, based on coming up with a good background story.
That said, maybe being a cleric of a deity should add a particular skill to the list, much like Sorcerer Bloodlines do.
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Jason's pretty much shot down the idea of all classes having a minimum of 4 skill points per level, but yeah, I'm all for that.
If the Cleric class abilities chart had 'Channel Energy 2d6' listed at 3rd level, 'Channel Energy 3d6' at 5th level, etc. it might make the cleric table *look* less empty after 1st level. (Since the extra dice are an upgrade, just as they are for the Rogue, who has his Sneak Attack dice improvements listed in his class ability table.) Combined with Domain abilities at 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th, this would leave 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th levels as 'dead.'
In the spirit of the Dead Levels articles on the WotC site, any additional filler abilities could be suitably weak.
At 6th level, the Cleric gains the ability to add their Wisdom modifier to all Channel Energy damage rolls. (So a Cleric with a Wisdom of 18 would roll Xd6 and add four.)
At 10th level they can maximize a single Channel Energy use, but only to affect a single touched target. (Ker-blammo, if negative energy. Massive healing, if positive energy.)
At 14th level, 1/day you can burn a Channel Energy use as a Standard Action to regain a spell previously cast, of up to one spell level / die of damage your Channel Energy heals/inflicts, (So, if you can channel 7d6 of healing or damage, you can burn a use of Channel energy to regain a spell up to 7th level.)
At 18th level, you can refresh *multiple* spells in this manner, and you can do this twice / day (so that you can burn a 8d6 Channel Energy attempt to restore 8 levels of spells that you've cast, in any combination).
3E Clerics have never, in my experience, been 'weak' or in need of a whole lot of 'love.' Given the significantly beefier Domain abilities in Pathfinder, I wouldn't rule out the idea of having Clerics choose only a *single* Domain, just to bring them a little more in line with Sorcerers and Wizards.
With 2 Domains,to powerful, (maybe), with 1 Domain, almost an NPC Class.
Yeah NPC classes if yeah lose the channel , lose armor lower the bab and give em a d6...wait thats a wizard in 3.5 silly me
I myself think they need only 1 domain.
Man they are more then good. its just other classes don't seem like 2nd classes losers now.
Never mind, I really don't think anyone is getting this.
No we get what your saying. We just dont think the cleric needs yet another bump no matter how small
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Never mind, I really don't think anyone is getting this.
Dude, I just wrote up 'dead level' abilities for all of the 'dead levels.' What more did you want? Every Cleric to come with Mjolnir, the Invulnerable Coat of Arnd and a rocket launcher at character generation?
I guess I didn't 'get this,' since your thread about filling in the dead levels apparently has nothing to do with filling in the dead levels...
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Jason's pretty much shot down the idea of all classes having a minimum of 4 skill points per level, but yeah, I'm all for that.
If the Cleric class abilities chart had 'Channel Energy 2d6' listed at 3rd level, 'Channel Energy 3d6' at 5th level, etc. it might make the cleric table *look* less empty after 1st level. (Since the extra dice are an upgrade, just as they are for the Rogue, who has his Sneak Attack dice improvements listed in his class ability table.) Combined with Domain abilities at 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th, this would leave 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th levels as 'dead.'
In the spirit of the Dead Levels articles on the WotC site, any additional filler abilities could be suitably weak.
At 6th level, the Cleric gains the ability to add their Wisdom modifier to all Channel Energy damage rolls. (So a Cleric with a Wisdom of 18 would roll Xd6 and add four.)
At 10th level they can maximize a single Channel Energy use, but only to affect a single touched target. (Ker-blammo, if negative energy. Massive healing, if positive energy.)
At 14th level, 1/day you can burn a Channel Energy use as a Standard Action to regain a spell previously cast, of up to one spell level / die of damage your Channel Energy heals/inflicts, (So, if you can channel 7d6 of healing or damage, you can burn a use of Channel energy to regain a spell up to 7th level.)
At 18th level, you can refresh *multiple* spells in this manner, and you can do this twice / day (so that you can burn a 8d6 Channel Energy attempt to restore 8 levels of spells that you've cast, in any combination).
3E Clerics have never, in my experience, been 'weak' or in need of a whole lot of 'love.' Given the significantly beefier Domain abilities in Pathfinder, I wouldn't rule out the idea of having Clerics choose only a *single* Domain, just to bring them a little more in line with Sorcerers and Wizards.
No, I figured you where not being serious. The 6th level one is not bad. Sort of on the line of what I was thinking. 10th seems, pointless in all but some very rare cases, unless I just don't see something {like the max I missed, which mean I'd put this in the game breaking side}. The others seem more on the game breaking side. I'm not familiar with "Dead Levels article".
The Domains are, different. I was really excited about them until I saw every other main caster, and they (domains) are, . . . ok. I haven't played one far yet to see for myself really. Maybe it may turn out that I like them again, but I doubt it after looking at Sorcerer Bloodlines and Wizard Schools. It still feels like the Cleric is the 2nd ed left behind class, not the other way around. They get 2 1/day spells.
When I say weak, I was refering not to the Class being a weak class, but not having the tools it would be justified in having in more social or non-typical encounters, particullarly because Diplomacy has no effect on anyone that is not an NPC,(What would happen if there where a rule that poor little rogue could not attempt to Bluff a PC?), and is generally disallowed from being mechanically successful so DM's can tell their story.
WOTC dead level filler*:
Part 1
Part 2
CLERIC
The cleric has nineteen dead levels, but this is mitigated by their one and only special ability: turn or rebuke undead. The turning damage for this ability steadily increases every level (2d6 + the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier). Still, a prestige class that grants +1 level of divine spellcasting, normal turn or rebuke undead advancement, and special abilities at every level opens the door for a minor dead level ability.
Undead Intuition (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a cleric can identify undead creatures during an encounter from any distance. The cleric gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (religion) checks to identify undead creatures, but gains no insight about their special powers or vulnerabilities. See Knowledge checks on page 78 of the Player's Handbook. Moreover, the cleric can make these Knowledge (undead) checks untrained. This bonus increases by +1 for each cleric level the character takes after 2nd level.
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Designer's Note: Undead identification is only one part of the Knowledge (religion) skill, and even then, undead intuition does not reveal the strengths or weaknesses of a creature. Knowledge (religion) and undead intuition combined, however, will permit clerics to recognize any undead creature on sight, which seems realistic for clerics.
* in PRPG beta only the spellcasters (exept for the Pally and Ranger) still have gaps on the Special Feat list
ya guys also need to look the PF cleric is a bit more powerful then the 3.5 one. 2 domains ..much better domains at that and channel...do not over look channel
That not bad at all, except it might mean that Clerics don't put any ranks into Know: Religion.
if 'Know: Religion' is useless for anything else, rightly so
but as it states: to find out the weaknesses a normal check is still required.also if you can put a name to the type it lets you remember the weaknesses(once you find them out by bashing the thing around) at a later encounter
i.e.
we've had a boogeyman 2 months ago: use the fluffy blanket with the blue elephants
a Pally or Wizard probabbly would need to make a new check every encounter to recognize them and recall weaknesses
a Cleric would just need to find out the weaknesses once and could then just go "I know your name & I remember your kind"
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ya guys also need to look the PF cleric is a bit more powerful then the 3.5 one. 2 domains ..much better domains at that and channel...do not over look channel
Maybe. Are they really that different? Channel is actually not new at all. Goes all the way back to 3.0 at least. It is a little improvement over Turning, but you also gotta remember, it also gives up some stuff. Additioanlly, unless this was a mistake, it is not possible to do this very often. You can't take extra turning more than once anymore, right. I aprove of this change, I just don't think it is as super great as everyone thinks, outside of just being a mass cure.
Domains, really are argueble. While they give you some sort of 1st level attack, mostly at will, they also no longer allow for the many things they once did. Domain Powers had been one of the few things that made one Cleric fundimentally different than any other one, even same alignment/deity Clerics. Some gave you a feat or two, some made Class Skills, and some gave odd little powers. Now, they are very formulaic. While you may get more spell like abilities/spells, over all, you might also be lacking certain spell access. Seems more like they are different than improved.
Maybe. Are they really that different? Channel is actually not new at all. Goes all the way back to 3.0 at least. It is a little improvement over Turning, but you also gotta remember, it also gives up some stuff. Additioanlly, unless this was a mistake, it is not possible to do this very often. You can't take extra turning more than once anymore, right. I aprove of this change, I just don't think it is as super great as everyone thinks, outside of just being a mass cure.
No they are alot more powerful..to much really...1d6 healing per 2 levels 30 foot. Also it counts as turning and damages undead. This is used 3+cha mod per day so at 1st ya could do it 7 times. not even taking extra channel which add 2 more times per day....It is way better then any 3.x turn 10 times better by far.
I think turn needs made into a feat that you add on to channel myself.
Domains, really are argueble. While they give you some sort of 1st level attack, mostly at will, they also no longer allow for the many things they once did. Domain Powers had been one of the few things that made one Cleric fundimentally different than any other one, even same alignment/deity Clerics. Some gave you a feat or two, some made Class Skills, and some gave odd little powers. Now, they are very formulaic. While you may get more spell like abilities/spells, over all, you might also be lacking certain spell access. Seems more like they are different than improved.
I'll give ya the argable power level, but really they make them no less different then 3.x as every cleric of that domain had the same spells and same 1st level power...how is this any diff.
Again if ya give them more they need to lose something they get 2 powers at each of the levels 2 each at 1st,2nd,4th,8th,12th,16th, and 20th.
so at 20th they have channel doing 10d6 healing/damage and 14 powers.
lets look
1=cHANNLE 1d6,1st level domain power,1st level domain power, Orisons
2=2ND level domain power,1st level domain power
3=
4=Channel 2d6,4th level domain power,4th level domain power
5=
6=Channel 3d6
7=
8=Channel 4d6,8th level domain power,8th level domain power
9=
10= channel 5d6,
11=
12=Channel 6d6,12th level domain power,12th level domain power
13
14=Channel 7d6
15
16=Channel 8d6,14th level domain power,14th level domain power
17
18=channel 9d6
19
20=channel 10d6,20th level domain power,20th level domain power
Now add full casting to this so at 20th level we have
0=4
1=4
2=4
3=4
4=4
5=4
6=4
7=4
8=4
9=4
or 40 spells not counting extras
and they have a d8, 2nd best BAB in the game, can wear heavy armor and have 2 good saves
really man they need brought down a bit not pushed up any at all.
I would lose 1 domain myself and take turning out of channel.
Also buff spells need denerfed that would help alot.also more skill points be damned nice
Oh yeah skill points are way to harsh on way to many classes.
Kinda funny there learned cleric can only do 2 things and the unlearned druid can do 4
We have started many, many threads begging for more skill points. Its not goina happen as " It brakes backward compatibility"...yeah ok.
Not being snarky but all the boost and thats whats over the line?
I have never used less then 4 since 2000, its not over powering to make folks useful out side of combat.And now they are worse off unless they are a human they are screwed worse then 3.5
While I really like PF's Gods and Magic, I would also enjoy seeing PRCs based on the various gods as well.
Like Desna's Spherewalker, Abadar's Justiciars and Cayden Cailean's Chevalier? And, to some extent, Lamashtu's Ashvawg Tamer variant Druid?
They are on their way. Takes its time, but they come.
Plus G&M gives the followers of almost all major deities new spells and the ability to prepare spells they normally couldn't use, or use spells earlier.
Between the domains, those extra spells and spell options, and the occasional PrC, I think clerics are already getting decent support. Wouldn't mind them getting a bit more, but it's not like there's nothing.
1.) Variety.
*2.) Respect from other players/classes and primarily from designers.
*3.) Lack many decent Prestige Classes with a few notable exceptions.
4.) The ability to be played without specific restrictions only the Paladin shares, (depending on the world).
*5.) The ability to be different than the majority of others of their class mechanically.
6.) A good starting Race.
1: As others have said: There's already variety there. See above responses and what I myself write in response to PrC requests. I'd say I can already make a cleric of Rovagug that's very different from a cleric of Serenrae or Calistria or Asmodeus.
2: I don't know about designers. Some, sure, but then again, there's always some, for everything. I'd say G&M made a nice job there.
As for players and other classes: That's not really the game's fault. It's the players' and GMs' fault. I know that when I play a cleric, people will respect me. Not just because I can always withhold healing from people who are disrespectful (okay, not always, sometimes divine law gets in the way, but I'd say that's quite rare unless people - again - screw up and depict deities as pathetic friends who will give you everything so you'll play with them), but because I can always contribute - and not just by healing and curing.
3: I find that while many really are crap, there are a couple that more than make up for that, as they let you do everything a cleric can, and then some - no, make that "and then a lot". And that for a class that is already on the strong side of power.
Which brings me to another argument: Clerics don't need that many awesome PrCs, really.
4: The restrictions aren't that bad. They're certainly a lot less stringent than the Paladin's.
Sure, if you play a LG cleric of Iomedae or something like that, you're probably just playing a paladin (with half again as much power, maybe more).
But go and play a cleric of Gorum or Calistria, or even of Cayden Cailean, and you can get away with quite a lot. Of play a cleric of Rovagug, or Norgorber, if you want to do really evil stuff.
While an individual cleric is bound to his deity's alignment (albeit with a one-step difference being allowed), the cleric class in general has no notable restrictions, because there's a deity for most play styles. And if you play a cleric that subscribes to a philosophy or other ideal instead of a specific figure, you can fill the gaps easily.
5: No worse off than a paladin or druid or ranger or bard or barbarian. In fact, I've played clerics that are quite different from each other.
6: Maybe they don't have many good starting races, but they have two fantastic ones: Humans (who are good at everything, and can get +2 at Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, or Cha, depending on what your cleric wants to be best at) and dwarves (who get both con and wis - with those bonuses, one can survive a -2 cha: Just get very little in the way of Int and Dex, and put some of the points you saved in both Con and Wis into Cha). Both can get the favoured class bonus, too!
And half-orcs can be just as good, maybe better, as they get to virtually ignore their attribute penalty.
Another concept that people don't really consider when thinking of the Cleric is most of their abilities, while they do look good, are actually twice as good for the party as a whole. Take away their "ok weapons", A.C., and Saves, and it's not the Cleric that is going to get hurt so much, it's everyone else that the Cleric doesn't heal/buff/protect.
I must say that I always managed to do both: Help the party and kick ass myself. Now that you can do a lot of healing with channel energy, and might have a competent paladin or bard, or maybe druid, to assist you in healing (and don't forget that the party can't force you to play band-aid for you. You can always refuse to play an NPC for them and refer them to the leadership feat and cohorts), it should be even better.
Especially in pathfinder now, every Class has gotten some nice little boosts, except the Cleric.
I know. Clerics (as well as druids - don't forget druids) have actually been made a bit weaker (divine favour doesn't stack with divine power anymore, and neither do haste effects; righteous might decreases your dexterity now... But on the other hand, you don't have to cast both DP and DF any more, and you can get strength booster items and still get everything out of divine power! And divine power's so much easier to use now.), but I think that's because they really needed their combat power toned down.
And divine favour's been uncapped again, so you can get by with df and haste instead of dp (haste can be used with boots of speed or a mithral full plate of speed; and df is far easier to quicken via the quicken spell feat or lesser metamagic rods of quicken magic)
On the other hand, they can now free up some of their spells by healing with channel energy (something that has often been useless for long stretches at a time unless you used divine feats), so while their buffs aren't quite as strong any more, they do get to use more of their spells for themselves.
Domains have just changed slightly. Some better, some just different, some worse, but being one of the two only class features, that still means you get nothing between 2nd and 19th Levels.
That's just not true. It's not just "domain". You get domain abilities at 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level. Sure, most of it are extra spells, but spells are class features, too.
And clerics get a progression that is almost as good as that of a wizard (wizards are a wee bit better because their schools are a bit more powerful, and they get to focus more on int than clerics get to focus on wis), so every other level is New Spell Level level.
We have started many, many threads begging for more skill points. Its not goina happen as " It brakes backward compatibility"...yeah ok.
Really? Do you have a link for that, because I can't believe that breaking backwards compatibility was used as an argument against changing skill points - not with the whole system being overhauled, favoured classes potentially granting extra skill points, and many skills being consolidated.
Sort of. Look at everything I suggested. Most are either skill based or directly involve skills. Or something relatively small like a total of a +3 to beat S.R. of 1 type of Outsiders or Undead or Elementals, or +1 dmg/4 Cleric Levels to Holy Water Damage.
Band aid on a gashing wound. bumbing one class that needs not boosts to fix an issue that affects half of them is not gonna helps
What you brought up boosts the class not fixes a flawed skill issue
yeah kaeyoss i dont have a link mybe you could find it was my thread and yes thats what jason said.
yeah kaeyoss i dont have a link mybe you could find it was my thread and yes thats what jason said.
Now that doesn't make sense (what he said, not what you said). I can see something like "I don't really think it's necessary - especially with the consolidated skills - and it's easy enough to change if you want to" but there are other skill related issues that affect BC more.
Can you point towards the main perpetrators?
I even asked him in chat during the alpha, he said it was to big a change and would effect most folks games , and folks that thought it was an issue could add more easier then folks who didn't taking them out.
My issue is if about half the people playing find it a big enough issue to houserule it then that rule needs looked at hard. I never bought the 3.5 PHB because they did not fix that simple thing, the other changes where all meh to me.
Now i think the changes in pathfinder are still BC, very much so. However they go way beyond adding 2 skill points to a few classes that really need them.
I mean the new system screws ya hard, unless your a human ..then they get 4, human rogues get 10...poor dwarf fighter 3 skills cant forge or do anything out side of combat, sad.
Now i like the new system but 2 skills is rough in it real rough. Sure there is no x2 pentilty but if yeah branch out then you fall behind unless ya to 4 skills or less. Get more then 4 or 5 and they become almost useless at high levels
People gonna hate me saying it but rouge does not need 8 skills any longer, if it was me thy get 6...give bard the 8, jack of all trades and all
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People gonna hate me saying it but rouge does not need 8 skills any longer, if it was me thy get 6...give bard the 8, jack of all trades and all.
I completely agree. Not only becasue there are so few skills now, but there should be a little bit of a choice there. 6 would be a good change, but I honestly see 4 being even better.
It was one of the first open comment it ended on time.