Here is a thought - how about allowing clerics capable of channeling positive energy to hold at bay undead instead of damaging them and/or making them flee?
Regards,
Ruemere
I really like the aesthetic with this idea. the undead running away is such a PAIN!
I also have liked this as an alternate use to the Channeling rules. It might be something that buys the party just a little time to get prepared for a confrontation instead of being surprised.
That sounds fair. How about treat it like a Protection from Evil effect (Protection from Undead?) at the cleric's caster level with a duration of Concentration (possibly plus CHA bonus)?
Edit: I meant "Magic Circle Against" effect, so 10-ft radius etcetera, effective against undead only.
we could just use the 30ft radius that turning has right now, unintelligent undead will stay outside, intelligent undead have to make will save to enter
Isn't one of the optional rules being tossed around that undead are Shaken if they don't save? That way the GM doesn't have to move them, they just stand there.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
ruemere wrote: Here is a thought - how about allowing clerics capable of channeling positive energy to hold at bay undead instead of damaging them and/or making them flee? Completely agree. I prefer to imagine the evil critters cowering at the edge of the protective circle, milling about, waiting for the clerics defenses to drop so they can swarm him, not running off like freaking babies lol
Would the cleric spend one channel energy and it would run for a set duration? Or would the cleric have to "continue channelling" kind of how a Bard continues to produce his Bardic music effects?
Mistah J wrote: Would the cleric spend one channel energy and it would run for a set duration? Or would the cleric have to "continue channelling" kind of how a Bard continues to produce his Bardic music effects? Per the description so far, it would be a standard action each round to maintain (see Concentration in the magic section). Bard's do not need to concentrate to maintain their performances (at least most of them), they simply cannot do certain things like cast spells (but can attack, etc.)
I could see this, maybe with a feat - 10' radius would be appropriate.
Both stationary and mobile effects would be interesting (travel with a 10' radius protection as long as you concentrate (zombies throwing rocks to try to knock you out of it, etc.) or setup the protection at a door, wait for friends to go through, then run with Cha rounds blocking what's coming.
Ok, here is my proposal basing on Channel Energy rules.
The rule to base on: Pathfinder BETA, Chapter 9 Combat, Special Attacks - page 149 wrote:
Channel Positive Energy
When you channel positive energy, you unleash a wave of positive energy in a 30-foot burst. All undead in this radius take 1d6 points of positive energy damage plus 1d6 points of positive energy damage for every two cleric levels you have attained beyond 1st (1d6 at 1st level, 2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on) and must f lee from you (as if frightened) for 1d4 rounds + your Charisma modifier.
Undead in this radius are allowed a Will save that negates the frightened condition and results in half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Charisma modifier. Undead who take damage greater than their hit points crumble to dust and are destroyed by the power of your deity. If a fleeing undead is subject to channeled negative energy, it is not controlled, but does receive a new saving throw to dispel the f lee effect.
Living creatures within the area are healed a like amount by this wave of positive energy. You can choose whether or not to include yourself in this effect. Hit points gained above a living creature's total are lost.
The proposal:
----
Holding At Bay
Regardless of your alignment, you may channel your energy to hold undead at bay. The affected area is 30' burst centered on you. The duration is one round, plus each round you choose to maintain the effect. Maintaining the effect takes a standard action (you do not need to spend additional uses of Channel Energy), however you must stay in the space you occupied during initial round.
Undead with hitdice up to your damage dice in Channel Energy:
- if present within the area of Holding At Bay must use Withdraw action until they leave the area. If it is not possible, they will cower and will attack only if attacked, however, even if attacked they will not be able to approach you.
- may not enter the area of this effect. They may use ranged attacks against you, however you and your allies are treated as if you had total concealment against them. You and your allies automatically succeed at any saves imposed by their abilities.
Undead with hitdice exceeding your damage dice in Channel Energy are affected just like their lesser brethren, however they are entitled a saving throw to resist the effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Charisma modifier. Failed save results in standard effect taking place. Failed save may be retried once per minute. Success allows undead to act normally within effect area or target creatures within area with ranged abilities normally.
----
Regards,
Ruemere
Great Idea!
If you would be so kind, I think I'll be using this with a few tweaks for personal taste:
1. I think I would remove the "total concealment", it's a bit odd to think that those inside the area are invisible to undead ranged attacks only.
2. The auto-save is a little strong.. but I love the concept. How about allies inside gain a +1 sacred bonus per damage dice of the Channel Energy to saves vs undead effects?
But overall this is a well done idea and I for one, really like it.
Kudos
Mistah J wrote: Great Idea!
If you would be so kind, I think I'll be using this with a few tweaks for personal taste:
1. I think I would remove the "total concealment", it's a bit odd to think that those inside the area are invisible to undead ranged attacks only.
2. The auto-save is a little strong.. but I love the concept. How about allies inside gain a +1 sacred bonus per damage dice of the Channel Energy to saves vs undead effects?
But overall this is a well done idea and I for one, really like it.
Kudos
Revising is entirely possible. Please clarify two things for me:
1. " it's a bit odd to think that those inside the area are invisible to undead ranged attacks only"
Would you like me to improve concealment to work simply against undead?
Would you like to remove the concealment altogether?
If it's the former, I can do just that.
If it's the latter, it is unfeasible for both dramatic and mechanical reasons - there was an adventure, White Plume Mountain or similar, where a high level party was ambushed by hundreds of kobolds with darts. The kobolds were hitting only on a natural twenty, however their number ensured that each party member was hit multiple times.
I would like to avoid leaving a loophole of zombies throwing dirt for hours to kill the cleric. My preferred way is for the stalemate to last for hours until heroic character succumbs to exhaustion (or the rescue party arrives).
2. See the kobold case above. This is also similar to old Cyberpunk, where you fail 1 task in 10. Every tenth plane would crash during landing.
That's why the automatic success is called for.
Not all is lost for the undead side though. The cleric is a sitting duck, so if the undead use any damaging area effect, mortal accomplice or have a higher level undead sniping abilities, all they have to do, is to pound the target for rounds.
Finally, this is also about Fear. Numerous undead can produce Fear effects. Unfortunately (see the plane example above) you fail such checks once per twenty attempts at least... and so here we have a solution for that.
Basically, the rules are meant to provide absolute protection from weak undead, while improving fighting chances against higher level ones.
Regards,
Ruemere
Clarification asked and received:
1. Yep, I was talking about removing it. I can see where your coming from but honestly, I don't think zombies are smart enough to throw dirt on their own; they'd have to be told. If someone is there telling them, then that someone can also come up with a better idea.
As for your kobolds and plane crashes; your right in saying that 1 in 20 is going to hit the cleric no matter what. However, if that is what it takes for the undead in question to land a blow then we are talking about something that is weak enough that any damage it deals will be something the cleric can handle without too much of a problem. It's not spelled out here but I assume that damaged cleric has to make a check just like a damaged spellcaster to keep the effect going. The only undead that can do this effectively are the high-level ones; and they can just make the save to enter anyway. Also don't forget that the cleric is most likely in a party - there are other people who do things to keep the cleric safe.
Coincidently, right now this ability allows allies of the cleric to run out of the zone, hit some undead, and then run back in for safety. I don't know if you mean this or not.
2. Same as above, that chance of a natural 1 on the die is offset by the fact that such low level undead are going to have abilities that are weak tea. Right now, this zone makes the characters inside auto save against the fear, the domination gaze of the vampire, the stench of the ghast, every spell the lich has memorized, and any magic items the wight is carrying.
I don't want to presume to know what you did or did not mean, but I think that wasn't it :) Perhaps you should clarify by stating that the auto-save only works with the natural abilities of the undead - not those derived from class or items.
Perhaps we could further clarify that it only works in regards to certain keywords; fear, death effects, negative energy damage, energy drain. You know, the standard "undead type" stuff.
I still think it's great by the way, I'm glad I can help out.
I think I'll try this out in my game by modifying the Improved Turning feat like so:
Improved Turning wrote: When taking this feat, choose one alignment descriptor (good, evil, law, or chaos). If you worship a patron deity, you may not choose a descriptor which matches that deity's alignment.
When expending one use of your Channel Energy ability, instead of the normal effects you may choose to create an effect in a 30-foot radius equivalent to the Magic Circle spell against your chosen alignment descriptor.
This effect is active while you concentrate to maintain it, and for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus after you stop concentrating. This effect acts the same as a Magic Circle spell in all other ways, except that it bars undead in addition to summoned creatures and it cannot be focused inward to trap creatures.
This benefit is in addition to the +2 bonus granted by this feat to your channel energy DC.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, select a different alignment descriptor. The Magic Circle effect granted by this feat may target only one alignment descriptor per use.
Mistah J wrote: Clarification asked and received:
1. Yep, I was talking about removing it. I can see where your coming from but honestly, I don't think zombies are smart enough to throw dirt on their own; they'd have to be told. If someone is there telling them, then that someone can also come up with a better idea.
As for your kobolds and plane crashes; your right in saying that 1 in 20 is going to hit the cleric no matter what. However, if that is what it takes for the undead in question to land a blow then we are talking about something that is weak enough that any damage it deals will be something the cleric can handle without too much of a problem. It's not spelled out here but I assume that damaged cleric has to make a check just like a damaged spellcaster to keep the effect going. The only undead that can do this effectively are the high-level ones; and they can just make the save to enter anyway. Also don't forget that the cleric is most likely in a party - there are other people who do things to keep the cleric safe.
Hey, what about a lonesome priest protecting his church from evil horde lurking outside? The term "high level" is also not entirely appropriate here. 11th level cleric can handle undead up to Wraiths (CR5, 5 HD).
Mistah J wrote: Coincidently, right now this ability allows allies of the cleric to run out of the zone, hit some undead, and then run back in for safety. I don't know if you mean this or not. Total concealment does not preclude anyone from fighting back. You just suffer from 50% miss chance. The hit and run tactics may be effective, however only for ranged attacks safety of the attacker is assured... though again, undead outside the zone are free to start a counter barrage of.
Again, this is not an absolute protection, merely a very effective one.
Mistah J wrote: 2. Same as above, that chance of a natural 1 on the die is offset by the fact that such low level undead are going to have abilities that are weak tea. Right now, this zone makes the characters inside auto save against the fear, the domination gaze of the vampire, the stench of the ghast, every spell the lich has memorized, and any magic items the wight is carrying. The autosave is in effect only if either one of the two conditions is met:
- undead's HD is below Channel Energy damage dice
- undead fails its saving throw (Will is a good saving throw for Undead)
Also, undead with HD above Channel Energy damage dice may retry save every minute. Therefore:
- Vampire - variable HD, cannot really comment on monster here
- Ghast - 4 HD, requires Cleric of 7th level to be held at bay with autosave, Ghasts are intelligent so they can attack with mundane range attacks
- Lich - caster level 11th is required before one can become lich, you need to be epic to hold Lich at bay
- Wight - "their abilities" refers to innate abilities. Use of special items (like artillery, bows) is not covered by this power.
In short, intelligent undead are somewhat restricted, but they are free to work around. The cleric is a sitting duck (cannot even cast spells since maintaining the effect requires standard action each round).
Mistah J wrote: I don't want to presume to know what you did or did not mean, but I think that wasn't it :) Perhaps you should clarify by stating that the auto-save only works with the natural abilities of the undead - not those derived from class or items.
Perhaps we could further clarify that it only works in regards to certain keywords; fear, death effects, negative energy damage, energy drain. You know, the standard "undead type" stuff.
Thanks for your input - that's why it is so important to run ideas through minds of other people - to make sure your words are understandable.
Next post, next version.
Regards,
Ruemere
Revised Holding at Bay, as per Mistah J suggestions
There are several other minor changes, too.
---- v2.0
Holding At Bay
Regardless of your alignment, you may channel your energy to hold undead at bay. The affected area is 30' burst centered on you. The effect lasts one round plus one round you choose to use standard action to maintain it. The effect is canceled if you fail to maintain it or if you leave the space occupied during initial round.
The restrictions imposed on undead vary depending on the number of Channel Energy damage dice. Undead with hitdice up to your damage dice in Channel Energy:
- if present within the area of Holding At Bay must use Withdraw action until they leave the area. If unable to leave the area, they will cower.
- may not enter the area of this effect. You and your allies are treated as if you had total concealment against undead and their special abilities and you automatically succeed on any saves against undead special abilities of spell-like or supernatural type.
- any attack made by any character staying within area of the effect, and directed against undead within or outside of the area of the effect, cancels Holding At Bay. The effect resumes for attacked undead once a round passes.
Undead with hitdice exceeding your damage dice in Channel Energy are affected just like their lesser brethren, however they are entitled a Will saving throw to resist the effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Charisma modifier. Failed save results in standard effect taking place. Failed save may be retried once per minute. Success allows undead to act normally and ignore Holding at Bay for one minute.
----
Comments?
Regards,
Ruemere
Well, I'll admit that with the explanation that it the auto-save only works on the lesser undead, it's a little easier to swallow.
I'm still a little iffy on the concealment thing. Let me propose something along the lines of a sanctuary effect; undead must make a save to make ranged attacks (targeted ones.. not area effects).
The rest of it, you've sold me on though.
One thing I thought I'd bring up is the fact that you mentioned the idea that this was supposed to emulate a battle between the strength of the undead and the the faith of the cleric; one that was taxing to the cleric - the idea being that he might not be able to hold them off forever, the risk of exhaustion setting in before help arrives.
I like it, but it's not reflected in the rules. Once a cleric starts he can go forever as long as he spend his standard action (and doesn't move).
There are lots of ways to reflect resisting fatigue - too many to mention at once but the idea is still worth a mention
Two comments:
- added exhaustion rules. Originally intended to be left to GM's discretion since the exhaustion effects set well beyond the length of typical scene. The exhaustion is still sketchy - no non-lethal damage (too easy to heal), merely the cancelation of the effect (it's easy enough to resume it by using another Channel Energy).
- no additional loophole for ranged attacks. Undead can still attack people within protected area - they just have 50% miss chance and must guess target's location. Only mindless and uncontrolled undead are affected by this rule - any controller or any intelligent undead may figure out how to blindly pelt the area with rocks.
---- v3.0
Holding At Bay
Regardless of your alignment, you may channel your energy to hold undead at bay. The affected area is 30' burst centered on you. The effect lasts one round plus one round you choose to use standard action to maintain it. The effect is canceled if you fail to maintain it or if you leave the space occupied during initial round.
You may use this ability for extended periods of time, however you must succeed at Fortitude save at the end of each hour you maintain this effect. The DC is equal to 10 + number of hours you have already spent on Holding At Bay. On a failed save the effect is canceled and you are Fatigued (if already Fatigued, you become Exhausted instead and you cannot use Channel Energy abilities for as long as you are Exhausted) - see glossary for rules on recovering from both conditions.
The restrictions imposed on undead vary depending on the number of Channel Energy damage dice. Undead with hitdice up to your damage dice in Channel Energy:
- if present within the area of Holding At Bay must use Withdraw action until they leave the area. If unable to leave the area, they will cower.
- may not enter the area of this effect. You and your allies are treated as if you had total concealment against undead and their special abilities and you automatically succeed on any saves against undead special abilities of spell-like or supernatural type.
- any attack made by any character staying within area of the effect, and directed against undead within or outside of the area of the effect, cancels Holding At Bay for the attacked creature. The effect resumes for attacked undead once a round passes.
Undead with hitdice exceeding your damage dice in Channel Energy are affected just like their lesser brethren, however they are entitled a Will saving throw to resist the effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Charisma modifier. Failed save results in standard effect taking place. Failed save may be retried once per minute. Success allows undead to act normally and ignore Holding at Bay for one minute.
----
Regards,
Ruemere
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