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Since I know there won't be a design forum for monsters like the other RPG stuff, and I'm sure you guys are already working on it I want to get this out there.
Lycanthropy is an awesome flavor thing, they're cool enemies, and cool character concepts. Unfortunately, turning a character into a lycanthrope brings up so many stumbling blocks. Primarily is the fact that a PC who gains lycanthropy is automatically a +2 LA.
So fix it! Make lycanthropy an easy to apply +0 LA template. I don't have any ideas on the specifics (though maybe we can come up with some on this thread) but just make it easier to include lycanthropy in a home game or maybe even organized play, without throwing everything out of whack.
/agreed
It is also always possible to balance the advantages of a race or a template with some disadvantages.
In the case of lycanthropes, there are many :
- Vulnerability to silver (add extra damage)
- Influence of the moon (keep control)
- Superstitions (reaction penalties from people and animals in any form)
- Enemies (cabals of druids and rangers hunting the beasts, like the Silver Flame on Eberron, equiped with werebane weapons and spells)
and so on...
These points can severely hinder a character, to the point that the benefits of lycanthropy are not so enjoyable.
Then you feel the curse.
The Frenzied Berserker mechanics could find a home here, as far as control and attacking allies goes.
I would caution that "disadvantages" having to do with perceptions and enemy organizations are not actual disadvantages. They do nothing to counterbalance the mechanical power of the template.
Silver vunerability and loss of control, thats another story entirely. I like this idea, but I think trying to make it an across the board LA+0 is shooting a little high, and also a bit restrictive. Werebears are stronger than werewolves. Game canon supports this. Not all weres are created equal.
However, we could create something where the mechanical penalties are scaled according to the power of the "donor" creature. Perhaps a werewolf only takes a -2 on his will saves to maintain control, but a weretiger takes a -4, a werebear a -6, and so on.
Thats all I got, and its all just ideas and cautions. How about some real minds get in on this?
Hmm, you know, I wrote a book about this....
(Sorry, running joke in the Editorial Pit....)
The existing rules for Lycanthropy level adjustments are TERRIBLE. Not all Lycanthropes are created equal - there's a great deal of variety in terms of their attribute modifications and combat effectiveness. They are NOT all worth a simple +2 Level Adjustment. Werebears and Weretigers are more powerful then Werewolves and Wererats and should be handled as such!
Keep in mind, lycanthropes also gain the animal's hit dice added to any other hit dice they have, in addition to the current +2 LA, increasing their ECL even further.
This also has bearing on the "not created equal" argument -- a werebear has more animal hit dice than a wererat...
Weretigers and Werebears may have more HD then Wererats, but I still don't think that a mere +2 LA is enough to offset the fact that their ability score modifiers are far superior to what Wererats get.
Hmm, you know, I wrote a book about this....
(Sorry, running joke in the Editorial Pit....)
And a good book too. While I prefer slightly beefer lycanthropes, the simple template you used works great. I typically use a tweeked verion of it myself.
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Weretigers and Werebears may have more HD then Wererats, but I still don't think that a mere +2 LA is enough to offset the fact that their ability score modifiers are far superior to what Wererats get.Keep in mind, lycanthropes also gain the animal's hit dice added to any other hit dice they have, in addition to the current +2 LA, increasing their ECL even further.
This also has bearing on the "not created equal" argument -- a werebear has more animal hit dice than a wererat...
A level 1 Barbarian natural Werewolf (ECL 6) is roughly equal to a level 5 character. So the LAs aren't too far off in my experience. The problem comes moreso when adding them into an ongoing game, where it will instantaneously shoot the ECL of the afflicted party member up by 3 or higher.
Also the rules as they are now are a bit confusing when it comes to animals with partial HD (Werecats, Wereeagles).
We just really need an easy-to-add LA +0 template. The best way would be by adding mechanical drawbacks and such. I think changing shifting to be more in line with a barbarian's rage would be a better idea. Make it that you can do it a number of times equal to 3 + CON mod or something, and make certain benefits based on the animal (but not like Druid's wildshape for PFRPG, that is just awful as it is)
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Weretigers and Werebears may have more HD then Wererats, but I still don't think that a mere +2 LA is enough to offset the fact that their ability score modifiers are far superior to what Wererats get.Keep in mind, lycanthropes also gain the animal's hit dice added to any other hit dice they have, in addition to the current +2 LA, increasing their ECL even further.
This also has bearing on the "not created equal" argument -- a werebear has more animal hit dice than a wererat...
A level 1 Barbarian natural Werewolf (ECL 6) is roughly equal to a level 5 character. So the LAs aren't too far off in my experience. The problem comes moreso when adding them into an ongoing game, where it will instantaneously shoot the ECL of the afflicted party member up by 3 or higher.
Also the rules as they are now are a bit confusing when it comes to animals with partial HD (Werecats, Wereeagles).
We just really need an easy-to-add LA +0 template. The best way would be by adding mechanical drawbacks and such. I think changing shifting to be more in line with a barbarian's rage would be a better idea. Make it that you can do it a number of times equal to 3 + CON mod or something, and make certain benefits based on the animal (but not like Druid's wildshape for PFRPG, that is just awful as it is)
That is indeed the problem - the sudden spike in power once the PC is "cursed"
Making it work more like a bezerking frenzy barbarian rage like ability is a great idea (i say bezerking frenzy instead of just rage - because it should be a mindless uncontrolled rage that he cannot discern friend from foe - except with perhaps a will save.....a tough will save...)
EDIT: Someone with Handle Animal should be more able to convince a "cursed" one when in their frenzy that they are a friend. Classic scenes from werewolf movies of the soon to be victim knowing who the werewolf is, pleading to their "human" side to remember who they are.
Robert
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Hmm, you know, I wrote a book about this....
(Sorry, running joke in the Editorial Pit....)
Sorry if it makes me sound ignorant - but which book, Sean?
I love using lyncathropes in my campaigns - it reminds me of my earlier years playing in Ravenloft - which is still one of my favorite settings.
Would love to see some more love thrown their way; I plan to run primarily in Darkmoon Vale area of Varisia - and it seems to have a fair share of these; it reminds me of my favorite Ravenloft realm of Kartakass.
Robert
Creative Director
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One thing to keep in mind: Lycanthropes are meant to be monsters, not player characters. The Pathfinder Bestiary is a book of monsters, not PC races.
Lycanthropy IS pretty complex as it stands, and I do suspect we'll be looking at ways to simplify the template (at least, so that one doesn't have to do 3 stat blocks per lycanthrope when they show up in an adventure!), but balancing lycanthropy so that it's a viable, attractive PC option is not something that the Pathfinder Bestiary is going to do.
Eventually, I strongly suspect we'll do some sort of Savage Species type book or some sort of product that provides rules and advice for monster PCs, but that book won't be the Pathfinder Bestiary.
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One thing to keep in mind: Lycanthropes are meant to be monsters, not player characters. The Pathfinder Bestiary is a book of monsters, not PC races.
Lycanthropy IS pretty complex as it stands, and I do suspect we'll be looking at ways to simplify the template (at least, so that one doesn't have to do 3 stat blocks per lycanthrope when they show up in an adventure!), but balancing lycanthropy so that it's a viable, attractive PC option is not something that the Pathfinder Bestiary is going to do.
Eventually, I strongly suspect we'll do some sort of Savage Species type book or some sort of product that provides rules and advice for monster PCs, but that book won't be the Pathfinder Bestiary.
I agree - that making them "viable" PC options is not the M.O. that Pathfinder should take, and I am not advocating making them as "PC choices."
I do however feel that they are common enough (especially in Golarion) that the chance of this happening to a PC is quite probable (there's a werewolf in the low-level module of the Kobold King even) and having it more streamlined would indeed help I believe.
Robert
Neutering or Spaying works well too. ~grins and runs~
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This may come across as a bit "rail-roady" but what about the old; "So, you have Lycanthropy. Your PC is now an NPC for three nights a month."
Lycanthropy is a curse, and a bad one. Curses should not = power boost. Take the frenzy idea (a good one I think) one step farther and with a failed will save you actually turn into a monster. Who eats people. People you know.
Ryn, who loves werewolves.
An easy solution for the PC werewolf that wants to master his curse is to develop a prestige class that grants the PC the lycanthropes abilities in level progression. The abilities may be weaker than the "monster" version, but that is the price of control. It balances the abilities, but still allows for a cool concept. I have used that method in my d20 Modern game.
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One thing to keep in mind: Lycanthropes are meant to be monsters, not player characters. The Pathfinder Bestiary is a book of monsters, not PC races.
Lycanthropy IS pretty complex as it stands, and I do suspect we'll be looking at ways to simplify the template (at least, so that one doesn't have to do 3 stat blocks per lycanthrope when they show up in an adventure!), but balancing lycanthropy so that it's a viable, attractive PC option is not something that the Pathfinder Bestiary is going to do.
Eventually, I strongly suspect we'll do some sort of Savage Species type book or some sort of product that provides rules and advice for monster PCs, but that book won't be the Pathfinder Bestiary.
No but you have the "Curse of Lycanthropy" which is such an awesome thing to have happen to a PC, and make them and the other players deal with it.
I want to see it as a 'curse' but I don't want the curse's downside to be an increase to the ECL, there should be other ways to make it unattractive to players (like the rage/frenzy ideas)
Thraxus might have something there, a PRC for "mastered" lycanthropes who are coming into control over their curse. I don't have time at the moment to elucidate on my approval of this, but I think this is the way to go. Combine with the "you are an NPC monster" without the class, and we have a winner.
Im going to have to do some homework on this. Might be the fix I've been looking for.
Sorry if it makes me sound ignorant - but which book, Sean?
Includes:
* +0 LA simple lycanthrope template
* cursed lycanthrope template
* means to customize lycanthropes so they get bigger or smaller, add weird special abilities, etc.
The existing rules for Lycanthropy level adjustments are TERRIBLE. Not all Lycanthropes are created equal - there's a great deal of variety in terms of their attribute modifications and combat effectiveness. They are NOT all worth a simple +2 Level Adjustment. Werebears and Weretigers are more powerful then Werewolves and Wererats and should be handled as such!
Sounds like you forgot the racial levels they also have, they are called racial hit die. In general, inflicted were worth LA +1, and natural born were +2, while the animal hit die took care of balance between the different power level.
Sounds like you forgot the racial levels they also have, they are called racial hit die. In general, inflicted were worth LA +1, and natural born were +2, while the animal hit die took care of balance between the different power level.
Stat adjustments for the Werebear: +16 STR, +2 DEX, +8 CON.
Total bonus points: +26 ability points.Stat adjustments for the Wererat: +6 DEX, +2 CON.
Total bonus points: +8 ability points.
These are clearly not equal in terms of power. And the former certainly isn't equal to a +2 or +3 LA. I believe that Drow are +2 LA and Deep Gnomes are +3 LA. As the rules currently stand, they are basically telling me that a Werebear's stat adjustments are balanced against all of the racial abilities that a Drow or a Deep Gnome gets. And we haven't even factored in their great racial abilities yet, which must also be considered when looking at their LA.
And if you jack up the LA of the more powerful Lycanthropes, then you'll never really have to worry about someone playing one.
These are clearly not equal in terms of power.
You seem to keep missing the "add the hit dice of the base creature" in there.
A werebear adds +2 LA for the template PLUS 6 levels/hit dice for a bear - for a total ECL change of +8.
A wererat adds +2 LA and 1 hit die or a total ECL change of +3.
Yes, the werebear and wererat are not equal. Nor are they supposed to be considered so.
So, if a 5th level character gets cursed with werebear lycanthropy, they just became a 13th level character (w/ 11 hit dice). With a wererat, they are only 8th (w/ 6 hit dice).
Thraxus might have something there, a PRC for "mastered" lycanthropes who are coming into control over their curse. I don't have time at the moment to elucidate on my approval of this, but I think this is the way to go. Combine with the "you are an NPC monster" without the class, and we have a winner.
Im going to have to do some homework on this. Might be the fix I've been looking for.
The prestige class I worked up was for my D20 modern shadow chasers/dark matter game. It gave a total of +6 to various physical ability scores, along with a lycanthropes animal empathy and various animal related powers. The lycanthropes are more balanced with themselves, but may be stronger or weaker than the base form.
For example, a werebear gets +4 to Strength and +2 Constitution and improved grab. A wererat gets +6 Dexterity and a natural climb speed. A werewolf gets +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, and +2 Constitution plus an increased land speed.
These are clearly not equal in terms of power.You seem to keep missing the "add the hit dice of the base creature" in there.
I'm not missing the "add the hit dice of the base creature". But it's not what I'm addressing. What I'm saying is that when you calculate the ECL of a Lycanthrope Character, you currently add up:
Animal HD + Character Levels + a (+3) Level Adjustment = final ECL
I believe that this Level Adjustment simply doesn't reflect the actual power that characters receiving in terms of ability scores and special abilities from certain types of Lycanthropy. I do not believe that +26 to a character's ability scores is equal to a +3 Level Adjustment. It can be argued that Animal HD aren't the greatest HD in the world, but I still believe that the massive typeless ability score gains and the special abilities that they receive more then offset their less-then-stellar HD gains.
I have a point of contention, something that I feel illustrates many of the above arguments.
Take the party front-line fighter, a 9th level wererat (afflicted) ranger, ECL12. Rolls average on hit points, has a Con 15 and 105hp in its hardiest incarnation, has a Con 13 and 96hp in its humanoid form.
Take the party spellcaster, a 12th level bard, ECL12. Rolls below average on hit points, has a Con 13, ends up with 103hp.
I dare you to look at that and tell me to my face that there's nothing wrong with lycanthropy as-is. Against an EL12 DR5/anything isn't worth the level drain, +2 wisdom isn't worth the level drain, +2 natural armor certainly isn't worth the level drain since you can buy it on the street for 8,000gp, Iron Will is a joke, and you're much more likely to hurt yourself trying to make a natural attack then accomplish anything.
I use such high levels as an example because the ECL adjustment forces anyone stuck with lycanthropy into adventuring solely in high-level parties.
Take the same front-line fighter, a 9th level werebear (afflicted) ranger, ECL17. Still rolls average on hit points, has a Con 21 and 243hp in its hardiest incarnation, has a Con 13 and 153hp in the only form it can use to fit in a standard dungeon.
Take the same party spellcaster, a 17th level bard, ECL17. Still rolls below average on hit points, has a Con 13, ends up with 124hp.
The werebear's hybrid form is Large so your adventuring wearbear in a city, dungeon, cave, and/or building of any kind or sort cannot wear armor (it is destroyed upon accidental transformation), gets the insult of +2 natural armor, +2 wisdom, and Iron Will. And is, according to the SRD, Lawful Good and thus a perfectly viable option for the aspiring paladin.
At low levels such as ECL10 your level 2 werebear paladin can be stabbed 35% of the time by a peasant with a dagger, knocked unconscious in a bar brawl, murdered by a CR6 encounter of two 4th level rogues with a surprise round, etc. This is not balanced. This is laughable.
If you, designers of this folly, meant for lycanthropy to be a terrible curse unworthy of PCs then why are there lycanthropes of perfectly viable alignments? A lawful good werebear does not become a murdering monster, more likely you see it eating berries and poking at beehives. Neutral wereboars and weretigers are more likely to decimate local deer populations and tuber crops than murder townsfolk in cold blood. These are perfectly acceptable things to happen to a PC in a standardly Good campaign. Worse things happen through Reincarnate and death only robs PCs of levels which in Pathfinder are replaceable through Restoration.
Take the same front-line fighter, a 9th level werebear (afflicted) ranger, ECL17. Still rolls average on hit points, has a Con 21 and 243hp in its hardiest incarnation, has a Con 13 and 153hp in the only form it can use to fit in a standard dungeon.
What makes a "standard dungeon"? I've been in quite a few adventures with another party member that is a Naturally Afflicted Weretiger, and he's never had any problems with his size, even during adventures in the Underdark. What happens more often then not is that he goes into Hybrid mode and buffs his STR by +12 and his CON by +6 and then uses his Large sized weapon to proceed to murder everything in sight. I imagine a Ranger wielding two weapons with decent base stats and Two-Weapon Fighting could put out some very good damage...
Take the same party spellcaster, a 17th level bard, ECL17. Still rolls below average on hit points, has a Con 13, ends up with 124hp.
I agree with you on this point: spellcasters are totally boned by Lycanthropy. They lose so much spellcasting ability, it isn't even funny. However, Lycanthropes can gain something from picking up a level in Sorcerer and judiciously using the True Strike and Shield spells as necessary.
The werebear's hybrid form is Large so your adventuring wearbear in a city, dungeon, cave, and/or building of any kind or sort cannot wear armor (it is destroyed upon accidental transformation), gets the insult of +2 natural armor, +2 wisdom, and Iron Will.
You're forgetting the substantial typeless physical bonuses that you gain whenever you go into hybrid form (which you should be in almost all of the time if you can get away with it). These can be further exploited by investing in a magical Belt. If you also invest in some Bracers of Armor and Rings of Protection, you should be in good shape. After all - your armor may shred when you change, but many DMs will allow you to retain your rings, bracers, and amulets during a shift to hybrid form because they aren't specifically designated as "armor" or "clothing". But even if your DM is more restrictive, but you can "doff" anything else that you are wearing while changing and then put your bracers, belt, rings, and amulets back on after you change shape. If you pick up the Shield spell, you'll get another AC boost. But it is going to take a few rounds of prep time to really get up and running if you have a very strict DM.
That being said: I suspect that given the changes in the Polymorph subschool and the Druid's Wild Shape ability, you'll see Lycanthrope ability score enhancements be reduced dramatically and turned into standard magical enhancement bonuses. And who knows - maybe they'll also get the "gear merge" that accompanies other Polymorph effects?
At low levels such as ECL10 your level 2 werebear paladin can be stabbed 35% of the time by a peasant with a dagger,
If you look at the Commoner Werebear Hybrid in the 3.5 Monster Manual, you'll see that even he has a total AC of 17 in Hybrid Form. Chances are good that your Paladin's AC is going to be about the same without a heavy investment in deflection AC. Assuming that you're being attacked by a 1st level Commoner with a STR of 13, he's going to be able to hit you if he rolls a 17-20. That's a 20% chance to hit.
But even if he hits you, chances are pretty good that 1) you won't take any damage from his attack and 2) you'll probably kill him or at least seriously maul him as soon as you make a full attack against him. And if you're in "normal" form - well, you're an ECL 10 character, right? You should at least have some off-the-rack Full Plate Armor and a Shield. But once again - even if he hits you, you're going to turn him into pulp.
knocked unconscious in a bar brawl, murdered by a CR6 encounter of two 4th level rogues with a surprise round, etc. This is not balanced.
Given the fact that you have 6D8 worth of Animal HD plus one or two Paladin HD and the Rogues only have a +4 BAB and can only get one additional attack off from Two-Weapon Fighting (if they even have it), I suspect that you'll more then likely be able to survive their inital attack in most circumstances, transform, and then proceed to gnaw their faces off. And you're going to have ECL 10 gear to boot. Once again - invest in those Bracers of Armor, kids!
If you, designers of this folly, meant for lycanthropy to be a terrible curse unworthy of PCs then why are there lycanthropes of perfectly viable alignments? A lawful good werebear does not become a murdering monster, more likely you see it eating berries and poking at beehives. Neutral wereboars and weretigers are more likely to decimate local deer populations and tuber crops than murder townsfolk in cold blood. These are perfectly acceptable things to happen to a PC in a standardly Good campaign. Worse things happen through Reincarnate and death only robs PCs of levels which in Pathfinder are replaceable through Restoration.
I agree with you on this point. Make them all evil, slavering monsters by default. It's more fun that way.
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One thing to keep in mind: Lycanthropes are meant to be monsters, not player characters. The Pathfinder Bestiary is a book of monsters, not PC races.
Lycanthropy IS pretty complex as it stands, and I do suspect we'll be looking at ways to simplify the template (at least, so that one doesn't have to do 3 stat blocks per lycanthrope when they show up in an adventure!), but balancing lycanthropy so that it's a viable, attractive PC option is not something that the Pathfinder Bestiary is going to do.
Eventually, I strongly suspect we'll do some sort of Savage Species type book or some sort of product that provides rules and advice for monster PCs, but that book won't be the Pathfinder Bestiary.
James: one obvious fix for the Lycans would be to have only ONE stat block (the hybrid one) which can be used for either of the three forms (just drop the bite in human form, and drop the claws in wolf form, so under full attack, you'll see A or B or C)
A= hybrid = claw, claw, bite
B= human = as per weapon
C= wolf = bite
Don't forget my biggest pet peeve...
WereRats should NOT EVER be more powerful than WereWolves. Period.
( What kind of insanity made the designers decide that it was a good idea to make the Canines have to gang up to fight a single Rodent? )
In my opinion, some lycanthropes are among few, few things that are anywhere near worthy their LA. While generally LA is just a measure of how much the system arbitrarily punishes you for playing a non-base race, it is somewhat close to the mark for "puzzle monsters", like incorporeals, and, to the lesser degree, lycanthropes. +3/+2 and huge skill investment still might be a bit too much, unless we use LA buyoff, but, at least, your template more than compensates your loss of HD against most of Monster Manual, until we get to high levels. Of course, this template also automatically restricts you to melee classes, which by itself can make your character inferior, but it is more of a problem with these classes.