Reincarnate


General Discussion (Prerelease)

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I thought I'd ask how people feel about Reincarnate. It's a real proud nail of the system (In my opinion, of course). In my experience, there are two camps with this spell:

1) The RP-oriented people who really avoid it because they don't know what to make of it, and they find the possility of being an Elf in a Goblin body awkward at best. They worry about things about being able to travel in civilized lands as a monster, or the difficulties of proving their own identities, even if reincarnated as their own race.
2) Powergamers who like it because it is the cheapest way to return from the dead (cheapest components, plus lowest level, and no negative level), and the nonzero chance of coming back as a Bugbear, Gnoll, or Orc without the associated mental penalties. In sort, people not deterred and in some cases encouraged by the limitations of the spell compared to Raise Dead.

And, of course, it's a rules problem on par with polymorph. The inevitable arguments over what is a cultural and what ia a biological bonus. Oh, and because 'majority of its previous life' means some important things might be forgotten.

I have no idea how to fix the spell without just making it a Druid's Raise Dead. Ideas?


...I think you forgot #3:

3) The RP-oriented people who really love it because nobody else knows what to make of it, and they find the possility of being an Elf in a Goblin body intriguing at best, hilarious at worst. They imagine all the role-playing opportunities while travelling in civilized lands as a monster, or the difficulties of proving their own identities, even if reincarnated as their own race.

The line between racial/cultural traits is just as much implicated by a Dwarven orphan raised amongst Humans
(though I'm sure RP-types shy away from that type of character).

And I happen to think "short term memory loss" is GREAT RP material.

Given that the "Fantasy" tropes which inform D&D include stuff like being changed into animals by magicians, it certainly seems appropriate.
I personally don't see any problem with it . :-)


Ross Byers wrote:


2) Powergamers who like it because it is the cheapest way to return from the dead (cheapest components, plus lowest level, and no negative level)

Anyone likes cheaper ways - more expensive ways may not be affordable. Nothing to do with powergaming.


My favorite spell in the book. It should be given back to wizards.

Dark Archive

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I remember the old Rogues Gallery, with that Erol Otus cover. The Lizardman and Centaur were the original, 'OMG! You can play that!' characters.

I vaguely remember the Lizardman as having a name like Phoebus, but I can't remember the Centaur's name at the moment.

I totally dig Reincarnate.

It's not like Polymorph Any Object isn't a relatively cheap* way to be whatever race you want to be anyway, without the pesky 'death' part.

*Something like 1200 gp as a 'spellcasting service.'


Except that Poly also changed the intelligence, which is why being reincarnated as a tough critter gets around the intelligence problem.

Liberty's Edge

Howabout expanding the list to include some weaker races to balance out the chance of becoming a more robust race. I think gray elves and xvart get a -2 Str and -2 Con (under 3.5 rules.)

Another idea is to simply have the character reroll their physical ability scores and add in the new bonuses. I've always just let it stand as is, but this could be used as a workaround if you don't want too many Str 20 humans suddenly becoming Str 24 orcs.

I remember the 2ed. version for clerics allowed characters to come back as animals like falcons and toads. However, I don't recall there being any rules for playing an animal back then so it was left up to the DM as to what to do with Rolf, the lv 10 fighter opossum.

Dark Archive

Velcro Zipper wrote:

Howabout expanding the list to include some weaker races to balance out the chance of becoming a more robust race. I think gray elves and xvart get a -2 Str and -2 Con (under 3.5 rules.)

Another idea is to simply have the character reroll their physical ability scores and add in the new bonuses. I've always just let it stand as is, but this could be used as a workaround if you don't want too many Str 20 humans suddenly becoming Str 24 orcs.

I kind of loathe the idea of having both powerful races and sub-par races on the same chart anyway. One player rolls well and gets a LA+2 or better for free, the other rolls crappy and is stuck in a form that might as well be LA -2...

Ideally, the Reincarnate table should consist of primarily LA +0 races, with a powerful race or two at the top, and a caveat stating that the player can take that powerful race, at the cost of losing a level during the reincarnation (to put him right back at LA +0) *or* roll again until he gets one of the LA +0 options.

Alternately, one way to make the 'powerful races' with their exciting stat adjustments less exciting is to have the PC return in the body of an *average* specimen of that race. He keeps his own Int, Wis and Cha, but comes back with the standard array for Str, Dex and Con, adjusted by his new racial modifiers, which, for someone who spent a lot of points in Str, Dex and Con, might leave him in the form of a 'powerful race' but with less Str, Dex and / or Con than he had in his original form!

I like the first idea better, of just making the various reincarnate options equal in value. There could even be specific text, so that if you reincarnate as a Goblin, you appear as an above-average specimen and have a few extra points to spend in physical stats, while if you appear as a Bugbear, you might end up being at the low end of the gene pool for Bugbear attributes, which a few less points in physical stats, to artificially balance the options and allow all of them to be more or less balanced with standard LA +0 PC races.

Scarab Sages

Because of the possible unfairness associated with Reincarnation, I made the following House Rule for our game. It seems to work well so far (considering two players have been reincarnated). Waydon is the first to be reincarnated, and as he would have been kind of screwed by the default rules we decided to go with this.

I prefer it as it keeps the ability modifiers even and can result in interesting hybrids.

Changes from the current Reincarnation

  • When reincarnated, your physical scores change on a case by case basis so that they best fit the new race and still work with the +2/+2/-2 model. In the case of Waydon, he would lose the +2 to Str from losing his Half-Orc race, and need to gain a +2 physical trait in its place. In this case, he would gain the +2 Dexterity. Applying the -2 to Constitution as well seems unnecessary considering he already keeps the -2 to Intelligence.
  • There are no re-rolls on the reincarnation table, and the DM will always roll. However, this rule does not apply if a creature with racial hit dice or a level adjustment is rolled. In this event, the player may choose whether he wishes to 'level' in the race or take another one. It's painful enough to get a race you didn't pick in the first place (sometimes, I know some players do relish the new race as a means for roleplay), but to have one that requires leveling in it before you can get back to your class is one I think the player should have a say in.

Example of a race ability score change with the original rules
Elf (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con) changing to Half-Orc (+2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int) would end up with (+2 Str, +2 Int).
Half-Orc going to Elf would end up with (+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Con, -2 Int).

Using this House Rule
Elf to Half-Orc would end with (+2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Con)
Half-Orc to Elf would end with (+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int)


KaeYoss wrote:
Anyone likes cheaper ways - more expensive ways may not be affordable. Nothing to do with powergaming.

Powergamers can get a fair bit of mileage out of Reincarnate as it is currently written. The spell doesn't explicitly strip you of any racial abilities that are not rooted in your physical form. So you could have a Human character that is reincarnated as a Half-Orc and would retain his Bonus Feat, additional skill ranks, and Weapons Training while gaining Darkvision and a +2 to STR. And since your mental stats remain the same, you don't accrue the -2 penalty to INT that Half-Orc normally suffer. As long as you didn't put your original +2 racial ability score bonus in STR, you're ahead of the game by 4 ability score points and you get Darkvision out of the deal.

Even better: a Human reincarnated as a Bugbear or a Lizardfolk. Enjoy those extra HD, ability score adjustments, and natural armor class bonuses!

Reincarnate needs to be re-written, but I definitely think it can be saved.


I'm not saying that it isn't abusable by power games. I just say that there's non-powergamers who like it, too.

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