SHIELD ALLY (formerly Shieldmate)
Prereq - +1 BAB, Shield Proficiency
Benefit - You provide a +1 shield bonus to AC to all adjacent allies when you have a shield you are proficient equipped.
IMPROVED SHIELD ALLY (formerly Improved Shieldmate)
Prereq - SHIELD ALLY, +4 BAB, Shield Proficiency
Benefit - The shield bonus to AC you provide all adjacent allies increases by +1. This effect stacks with the bonus provided by 'Shield Ally'.
INTERCEPT (or Interception?)
Prereq - +1 BAB, Shield Proficiency, Combat Reflexes
Benefit - If an ally adjacent to you would be struck by a melee or ranged attack you may throw yourself in front of the attack. The attack is completed as normal, but now acts as if you were the intended target.
Your selflessness causes your AC to be reduced by -2 for the remainder of the round, this includes the attack you intercept. You must have a shield you are proficient with equipped. This feat may only be performed once per round as an immediate action.
These are good, but could they be incorporated into the Shield Mastery Feats? I really like the intercept(ion) feat.
Being incorporated into the existing Shield Mastery Feats would be awesome. Glad to see someone likes the Intercept(ion) Feat, I think it would be awesome for Sword&Board characters, specially Paladin's whom I envision jumping in front of allies in a heroic superhero-like manner.
I don't think it makes sense if the shield you are using provides a smaller AC bonus to you then it does to your allies, as is the potential with Greater Shield Ally
-Steve
I don't think it makes sense if the shield you are using provides a smaller AC bonus to you then it does to your allies, as is the potential with Greater Shield Ally
-Steve
The original Shieldmate Feats also gave the shield bearer a +1 bonus to AC, but I did not want to step on the toes of the new playtest Feats Jason posted, Shield Mastery, etc. Or add too much Non-OGL content to the body of the Feats.
Combining them with the Shield Mastery Feats on the other hand would be great IMO... as per suggestion from 'Brutesquad07'.
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A few feats to enhance the shield seems to be a theme most people are behind. Honestly a few tweaks here and I think this is just what the Doctor ordered. Perhaps the first one (the obligatory prereq feat) is a +1 to your AC and then the next offer the shields base AC to your friend(s) (Ie you stick your shield between your ally and someone attacking him works melee as well as ranged) then the intercept, you put the rest of you between your friend and the attack.
Agreed sword and board needs a feat tree as robust as the cleave, spring attack and dual wield trees. The various stratagies to playing a martial character need equal consideration. I am curious how you think the ideas presented here stack up to the approach the design team took with their shield feats that were just released. ie: shields granting some DR etc.
I don't think it makes sense if the shield you are using provides a smaller AC bonus to you then it does to your allies, as is the potential with Greater Shield Ally
-SteveThe original Shieldmate Feats also gave the shield bearer a +1 bonus to AC, but I did not want to step on the toes of the new playtest Feats Jason posted, Shield Mastery, etc. Or add too much Non-OGL content to the body of the Feats.
Combining them with the Shield Mastery Feats on the other hand would be great IMO... as per suggestion from 'Brutesquad07'.
I have no problem with feats that improve your shield AC, nor with being able to share that bonus with allies. My issue is when your allies get a greater benefit from your shield then you do. It violates common sense.
I would suggest putting a clause in there that the AC bonus granted to allies cannot exceed the overall bonus provided by your shield.
-Steve
I would suggest putting a clause in there that the AC bonus granted to allies cannot exceed the overall bonus provided by your shield.
That seems fair enough.
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I have no problem with feats that improve your shield AC, nor with being able to share that bonus with allies. My issue is when your allies get a greater benefit from your shield then you do. It violates common sense.
I would suggest putting a clause in there that the AC bonus granted to allies cannot exceed the overall bonus provided by your shield.
Agreed, though I don't even think it should be a clause, it should be clearly spelled out.
Shield Focus (Combat)
You are skilled at deflecting blows with your shield.
Prerequisites: Shield Proficiency, base attack bonus +1
Benefit: Increase the base AC bonus granted by any light, heavy or tower shield you are using by 1. Your Shield bonus applies to your touch AC as well.
Greater Shield Focus (Combat)
You are incredibly skilled at deflecting blows with your shield.
Prerequisites: Shield Focus, Shield Proficiency, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: When benefitting from a shield you are using a light, medium or tower shield you and each adjacent ally receive a +1 Dodge bonus to AC. This bonus increases by 1 for each 2 points of shield bonus after the first. Any affect that causes you to lose your dexterity or shield bonus causes you to lose this bonus. No one may benefit by this feat more than once, the greater Dodge bonus applies.
Shield Mastery (Combat)
You can use a shield to deflect harm.
Prerequisites:Shield Focus, Shield proficiency, base attack +4
Benefit:Whenever you are using a shield you apply your shield bonus to your Reflex Saving throws. Any affect that causes you to lose your dexterity or shield bonus causes you to lose this bonus.
Improved Shield Mastery (Combat)
You can use a shield to deflect a great deal of harm.
Prerequisites:Shield Focus, Shield Mastery, Shield proficiency, base attack +12
Benefit:Whenever you are using a shield and successfully make a reflex saving throw you [insert evasion text here]. This effect does not stack with evasion
Greater Shield Mastery (Combat)
You can use a shield amazingly well to protect yourself from harm.
Prerequisites:Shield Focus, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Shield proficiency, base attack +16
Benefit:Whenever you are using a shield and successfully make a reflex saving throw you [insert improved evasion text here]. This effect does not stack with evasion
C'n I suggest an "Improvised Shield" feat? Fer instance, the standard 15 gallon ale barrel could count as a Tower Shield. I think they have the same cover value.
C'n I suggest an "Improvised Shield" feat? Fer instance, the standard 15 gallon ale barrel could count as a Tower Shield. I think they have the same cover value.
*Snorts at Klaayr, seemingly amused.*
I don't think it makes sense if the shield you are using provides a smaller AC bonus to you then it does to your allies, as is the potential with Greater Shield Ally
-SteveThe original Shieldmate Feats also gave the shield bearer a +1 bonus to AC, but I did not want to step on the toes of the new playtest Feats Jason posted, Shield Mastery, etc. Or add too much Non-OGL content to the body of the Feats.
Combining them with the Shield Mastery Feats on the other hand would be great IMO... as per suggestion from 'Brutesquad07'.
I have no problem with feats that improve your shield AC, nor with being able to share that bonus with allies. My issue is when your allies get a greater benefit from your shield then you do. It violates common sense.
I would suggest putting a clause in there that the AC bonus granted to allies cannot exceed the overall bonus provided by your shield.
-Steve
I should point out, that in a sheild wall, your sheild does actually protect the person next to you, more than it does you and you relie on the other man next to you for protection. That said, i don't think this example really relates to that specific situation.
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I should point out, that in a sheild wall, your sheild does actually protect the person next to you, more than it does you and you relie on the other man next to you for protection. That said, i don't think this example really relates to that specific situation.
Agreed, however since when did reality have any true affect upon our game? My point with these feats is to make the Shield Wielder strong enough to be the valued option it was back in 2nd. Haven't seen a shield fighter much since then.
My point with these feats is to make the Shield Wielder strong enough to be the valued option it was back in 2nd. Haven't seen a shield fighter much since then.
I agree, the shield fighter needs reasons to be a valid option. Brutesquad07, you know my opinions on this topic, however I will share them again for others.
Because much like running a Small Race Fighter (Gnome/Halfling/etc.), the Shield Fighter(Paladin/etc.) has little to no purpose on the battlefield other than presenting the monsters with another chunk of hit points to chew on.
He does a ton less damage and only receives a minor AC bump(w/o magic) and cannot even control whether or not monsters are intersted in attacking him over say, the easy-to-hit Wizard blasting away at them every round.
The only way D&D has to reliably generate aggro from monsters is to deal more damage than the next guy. (The other, less reliable method is having a DM that doesn't play to constantly win and purposely screw the party over by beating on the support chain out of the gate.(cleric/wizrd/etc.))
The rogue, barbarian, wizard, etc., is going to eventually out damage ( under 2 rounds likely) the shield fighter and leave him standing up front alone while his party gets beat to death. Monsters have NO incentitive what-so-ever to attack the guy that's slightly harder to hit and is doing sub-par damage compared to everyone else, but his useless little buddy the gnome fighter.
All ranting about taunt and aggro aside, unless the shield fighter can find a niche as a more productive team member, it is pointless to roll one up. Just go two-handed and forget the +2 AC(hvy shield) or go 2-Weapon and take 2-Weapon Defense... save yourself a ton of boredom and aggrivation.
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Because much like running a Small Race Fighter (Gnome/Halfling/etc.), the Shield Fighter(Paladin/etc.) has little to no purpose on the battlefield other than presenting the monsters with another chunk of hit points to chew on.All ranting about taunt and aggro aside, unless the shield fighter can find a niche as a more productive team member, it is pointless to roll one up. Just go two-handed and forget the +2 AC(hvy shield) or go 2-Weapon and take 2-Weapon Defense... save yourself a ton of boredom and aggrivation.
The reason I proposed the feats (above) to share some of your AC and to help with the Reflex saves, was that I think the shield fighter (or Paladin) needs help finding that niche. The AC granted by a shield is nice, but not enough. Preventing things from just running by you is also an issue. The only character I have ever seen able to successfully stop creatures from just running by them and heading for the wizards is the Chain Fighter. (Note the lack of shield and usually the lack of heavy armor) I have seen several chain fighters successfully defend the squishies, I have not seen a heavy sword/board fighter manage it. Honestly I would like to see more options to help with that. The interception ideas I have seen have been interesting. I like the suggestion that you should be able to ready a charge. Those, plus some sharing of your shields AC might go a long way in restoring the sword and board to his glory days.
It'd be a way to pick up a dead body or even a grappled enemy and use 'em as a shield...
Oh, finally! A use for gnomes!
It could be along the lines of the Caught Off Guard & Throw Anything feats.
Oh, finally! A use for gnomes!
*Snorts at Klaayr, seemingly amused.*
The top 3 are my main focus, the rest are playtest ones Brutesquad07 re-worded. They are NOT Fighter only Feats, so that a Paladin and Cleric might also use them. It's the Paladin's job to defend and the Cleric's job becomes easier when he doesn't have to heal as often. (Druids are welcome also, but it honestly was not the class I had intended them for.)
Shield Ally (formerly Shieldmate)
You have a watchful eye over your allies occasionally lending a shield.
Prerequisites - +1 BAB, Shield Proficiency
Benefit - You provide a +1 shield bonus to AC to all adjacent allies when you have a shield you are proficient equipped. The shield bonus granted to allies cannot exceed the overall bonus provided by your shield.
Improved Shield Ally (formerly Improved Shieldmate)
You know how to defend your allies better than they do, and you have a shield to prove it.
Prerequisites - Shield Ally, +4 BAB, Shield Proficiency
Benefit - The shield bonus to AC you provide all adjacent allies increases by +1. This effect stacks with the bonus provided by 'Shield Ally'. The shield bonus granted to allies cannot exceed the overall bonus provided by your shield.
Intercept (or Interception?)
You are a team player and sometimes that involves taking a hit for the team.
Prerequisites - +1 BAB, Shield Proficiency, Combat Reflexes
Benefit - If an ADJACENT ally would be struck by a melee or ranged attack you may take the hit instead. The attack is completed as normal, but now acts as if you were the intended target.
Your selflessness causes your AC to be reduced by -2 for the remainder of the round, this includes the attack you intercept. You must have a shield you are proficient with equipped. This feat may only be performed once per round as an immediate action.
Shield Focus (Combat)
You are skilled at deflecting blows with your shield.
Prerequisites: Shield Proficiency, base attack bonus +1
Benefit: Increase the base AC bonus granted by any light, heavy or tower shield you are using by 1. Your Shield bonus applies to your touch AC as well.
Greater Shield Focus (Combat)
You are incredibly skilled at deflecting blows with your shield.
Prerequisites: Shield Focus, Shield Proficiency, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: When benefitting from a shield you are using a light, medium or tower shield you and each adjacent ally receive a +1 Dodge bonus to AC. This bonus increases by 1 for each 2 points of shield bonus after the first. Any affect that causes you to lose your dexterity or shield bonus causes you to lose this bonus. No one may benefit by this feat more than once, the greater Dodge bonus applies.
Shield Mastery (Combat)
You can use a shield to deflect harm.
Prerequisites:Shield Focus, Shield proficiency, base attack +4
Benefit:Whenever you are using a shield you apply your shield bonus to your Reflex Saving throws. Any affect that causes you to lose your dexterity or shield bonus causes you to lose this bonus.
Improved Shield Mastery (Combat)
You can use a shield to deflect a great deal of harm.
Prerequisites: Shield Focus, Shield Mastery, Shield proficiency, base attack +12
Benefit: Whenever you are using a shield and successfully make a reflex saving throw you [insert evasion text here]. This effect does not stack with evasion
Greater Shield Mastery (Combat)
You can use a shield amazingly well to protect yourself from harm.
Prerequisites: Shield Focus, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Shield proficiency, base attack +16
Benefit: Whenever you are using a shield and successfully make a reflex saving throw you [insert improved evasion text here]. This effect does not stack with evasion
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The more I have thought about shields, the more I am convinced that the Shield Bonus (regardless of its source) should just be part of touch AC. The ones who are usually owned by touch attacks are the bulky heavy armor characters anyway. a few points (4 or 5 is about the maximum that I usually see) of Shield Bonus are not going to make the ranged touches auto miss, if anything they will make it just a little likely to miss instead of auto hits.
Even if you let a feat or two add a few points of shield bonus, you take in account a +2 shield and then magic it up, the Touch AC is not going to get so drastically better that you completely shut down the casters anyway. What you will be doing is allowing armored encounters that can challenge the fighter types to not be completely vulnerable to the casters. Thus without making it harder for the fighters you make it possible (probably not even likely) to be a challenge for the ranged touch folks.
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Back to the feats.
I see a lot of hope for the shields. One way or another I hope that the ability to shield allies (give ac bonus with your shield) gets added. That plus the shield focus tree and I think that the sword and board will be a viable option. My biggest fear is that this stuff will get implemented but be fighter only. Please remember that the Paladin is an Iconic Sword and Board. If the feats have to be Fighter only, at least let the paladin have a bonus feat structure that allows them to take them.
I started a new thread (called, unsurprisingly, 'New feats') for "brainstorming" new feats for PF RPG. I wondered if the ideas presented here could also be posted (and discussed) there?
Absolutely. :)
Below I posted some of the last Shield Feats WotC created in the PHB2 before 4E came out, for genereal purpose. They seemed aware that "Sword & Board" Fighter needed some love, even then. I've added comments to each in BOLD.
Prereq. - Proficiency with shields
Benefit - Increase shield bonus by +1
Useful, Pathfinder has this one covered.
Prereq. - Proficiency with shields, Shield Specialization
Benefit - Make attacks of opportunity without penalty when fighting defensively
Useful, but it might need a bit more power to make it Feat worthy IMO.
Prereq. - Proficiency with shields, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization
Benefit - Reduce two weapon penalties when using shield bash
Very useful addition to the Two-Weapon Fighting tree.
Prereq. - Proficiency with shields, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, base attack bonus +9
Benefit - Use shield as ranged weapon
Um, I have yet to know a player who wants to make Captain America, on top of needing a +9 BAB. This one is kinda rediculous IMO.
Prereq. - Proficiency with shields, Shield Specialization
Benefit - Gain shield bonus to touch AC and against bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip
This one is similar to Brutesquad07's tweaking of Shield Focus.
The 3 Feats I started this post with... Shield Ally, Improved Shield Ally, & Intercept... are all (COMBAT) feats. Just thought I would update that. :)
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The 3 Feats I started this post with... Shield Ally, Improved Shield Ally, & Intercept... are all (COMBAT) feats. Just thought I would update that. :)
I have said it before, but I just want to say it again so I will ;). These feats are all combat feats so the fighter can take them as bonus feats, but none of them should be fighter only feats. I understand the desire to have Fighter only feats, the problem I have with putting any feat into fighter only is that the fighter overlaps everybody, so any feat you make fighter only winds up hurting someone else. The armor/shield feats we have talked about here would hurt the Paladin if you make them Fighter only. Two-Handed weapon feats hurts the Barbarian, unarmed stuff hurts the monk, two-weapon or bow would hurt the ranger, I'm Cooler than you feats would hurt me (cause dragons aren't fighters but they are by their very deffinition cooler than you) So please, please, please, don't make the shield feats Fighter only...
The 3 Feats I started this post with... Shield Ally, Improved Shield Ally, & Intercept... are all (COMBAT) feats. Just thought I would update that. :)I have said it before, but I just want to say it again so I will ;). These feats are all combat feats so the fighter can take them as bonus feats, but none of them should be fighter only feats. I understand the desire to have Fighter only feats, the problem I have with putting any feat into fighter only is that the fighter overlaps everybody, so any feat you make fighter only winds up hurting someone else. The armor/shield feats we have talked about here would hurt the Paladin if you make them Fighter only. Two-Handed weapon feats hurts the Barbarian, unarmed stuff hurts the monk, two-weapon or bow would hurt the ranger, I'm Cooler than you feats would hurt me (cause dragons aren't fighters but they are by their very deffinition cooler than you) So please, please, please, don't make the shield feats Fighter only...
With all due respect, I do think that Fighter only feats should revolve around the notion that they can get better use out of their equipment than anyone else. Specifically, Fighter only feats should stick to better bonuses granted by equipment. The precendent for this are the Weapon Focus tree feats, which all require a weapon choice.
The 1st feat in the tree is open to all combatants, but the advanced feats are fighter only. So lower tier shield feats in turn should be open to all classes, but the advanced feats could be fighter only.
Equipment feats that let you use your items in new ways should be open to all classes.
So, with regard to shield feats, applying this philosophy would look like the following:
Shield Focus: you increase your shield bonus by +1 All classes may take this feat.
Shield Specialization: you increase your shield bonus by an additional +1 (for a total of +2) [i]Only fighters may take this feat.
Active Shield Defense: you may add your shield bonus to reflex saves. All classes may take this feat.
Shield Ward: you may add your shield bonus to CMB checks. all classes may take this feat.
That is just my opinion of course.
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SHIELD ALLY (formerly Shieldmate)
Prereq - +1 BAB, Shield Proficiency
Benefit - You provide a +1 shield bonus to AC to all adjacent allies when you have a shield you are proficient equipped.IMPROVED SHIELD ALLY (formerly Improved Shieldmate)
Prereq - SHIELD ALLY, +4 BAB, Shield Proficiency
Benefit - The shield bonus to AC you provide all adjacent allies increases by +1. This effect stacks with the bonus provided by 'Shield Ally'.INTERCEPT (or Interception?)
Prereq - +1 BAB, Shield Proficiency, Combat Reflexes
Benefit - If an ally adjacent to you would be struck by a melee or ranged attack you may throw yourself in front of the attack. The attack is completed as normal, but now acts as if you were the intended target.Your selflessness causes your AC to be reduced by -2 for the remainder of the round, this includes the attack you intercept. You must have a shield you are proficient with equipped. This feat may only be performed once per round as an immediate action.
My suggestions for Racial Feats (on the Alpha threads) also included a feat (for dwarves) called 'Shield Ally', and the benefit was almost identical -- the only exception was that you granted an additional +1 to all adjacent dwarven allies. The purpose of this feat was to emhasize the dwarven "mindset" and combat style, i.e. how they protect and fight in synergy with their clansmen.