I noticed the table mentions Spells, but there are no spells listed in the description.
They have no spells. That was a mistake on the table
They have no spells. That was a mistake on the table
Was there a place where that was covered already? I tried searching for a discussion of the Pathfinder prestige classes but didn't see this addressed.
Yeah it was in the thread where the announcement was posted. Pretty early in,then many pages of joy for no spells and sadness for no spells.
Creative Director
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They have no spells. That was a mistake on the tableWas there a place where that was covered already? I tried searching for a discussion of the Pathfinder prestige classes but didn't see this addressed.
It's been mentioned here and there on the boards. I believe it was first addressed on the first thread that announced the Prestige Classes were going live, in fact.
But yeah; for now, assassins in the PF RPG don't cast spells. We're waiting for the Prestige Class section of playtesting to start to see how that pans out.
But yeah; for now, assassins in the PF RPG don't cast spells. We're waiting for the Prestige Class section of playtesting to start to see how that pans out.
I liked the spells. I always felt that without them, you might as well keep playing rogue, and turn the other class abilities into feats or rogue talents.
I am happy to see the spells die. If ya want you mystic magicy assassins well BC ya have the book. For us that always hated all assassins just had to cast spells well thins fits better.
I am happy to see the spells die. If ya want you mystic magicy assassins well BC ya have the book. For us that always hated all assassins just had to cast spells well thins fits better.
Not all assassins have to cast spells. Only those who take the assassin PrC (and not even then. They're not mandatory, but that's beside the point). An assassin who just wants to stab people stays rogue.
Maybe the name wasn't chosen correctly for the spellcasting sneak-killer, but it did serve to make it a distinct class rather than a weird rogue knock-off.
I think many of the rogue-derivative PrCs to be useless, because they just don't deliver enough to compensate for the loss you take (rogue gets skills, talents, sneak attacks; those PrCs often sacrifice one or more rogue strengths but don't increase their area of expertise enough to warrant the sacrifice)
I'd be happy if the assassin class had +1 to spellcasting every two levels. I'm not crazy about 50 different classes with 50 different spell lists.
As an aside, I'm bemused that the user Backwards Compatability is registered as a Taldan.One must cherish the Old Values, surely you agree.
I do... which is why I think assassins with spells are out of place.
Or did you mean the not-so-old values?
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Creative Director
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Plus, you know...
Backwards compatibility doesn't mean "everything in PF RPG works the same as 3.5" though. If that were the case... it'd just be 3.5 all over again.
Backwards compatibility means that a 3.5 assassin and a Pathfinder RPG assassin use the same base rules, and that you can run an encounter using both at once, and that their stat blocks will look relatively similar so that someone who only knows one of the two systems should be able to utilize both stat blocks.
There's nothing preventing anyone from using the 3.5 assassin in their Pathfinder RPG game, in other words. (Again... assuming that the PF RPG assassin remains without spells to the end.)
I don't mind them losing spells, but I think they need more to compensate them for it.
Well, back in the day, if you saw a 'thief' climbing a sheer surface with a shield strapped to his/her back, you immediately knew what his/her real profession was.
I do love me some AD&D, but there have been positive leaps forward... ;)
Hey I'm not the one who was extolling the virtues of "old values" I was just pointing out that the 'virtue' he was speaking of wasn't very old at all.
I don't really see how a guy who specializes in putting a shank in people's back for fat cash, gaining spells is a positive leap forward. It's kind of like a fighter suddenly getting access to spells. Kind of WTF?
I think what many point to is spell slinging assassins are a 3.x thing. If ya want your assassins to be spellslingers thats a multi classes assassin. Most would not cast spells, ya need a mage killed that calls for an assassins that deals with that. Most would not be spellcaster,however an assassin is more then a thug with s sword, that be a rogue.
Well, given the history of the actual organisation, the Nizari Hashashin, and their mix of 'alchemical' and 'devoted' prowess (let alone those of Asian orders/organisations with supposed magical abilities), perhaps you are taking too narrow a view of the role and capabilities of an assassin, as well as possibly selling the class' potential for a FRP rather short.
This is a good point. I really don't that impression from this class though.
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I'm digging this out of the archives ...
One of the players in my group just took the assassin prestige class. We are using the Beta rules, so we are using the Pathfinder assassin prestige class. The question of spells or no spells came up of course ...
Can one of the friendly Paizo staffers please let me know if the final assassin prestige class has spells or not?
Pretty please?
I'm digging this out of the archives ...
One of the players in my group just took the assassin prestige class. We are using the Beta rules, so we are using the Pathfinder assassin prestige class. The question of spells or no spells came up of course ...
Can one of the friendly Paizo staffers please let me know if the final assassin prestige class has spells or not?
Pretty please?
We got the briefest glimpse of the Assassin at the PaizoCon Preview Banquet - I couldn't make out whether ", spells" was on the ability chart, but I didn't see a "spells per day" section.
Soooo... I think they do not, but I'm not sure. It's a big question for me too - I had my fingers crossed for them.
I don't really see how a guy who specializes in putting a shank in people's back for fat cash, gaining spells is a positive leap forward. It's kind of like a fighter suddenly getting access to spells. Kind of WTF?
That's my biggest beef with many prestige class - including the 3.x assassin - a sudden and "too easy" access to magic.
3.x made access to spellcasting a very trivial thing, mainly because of the multitude of semi-spellcaster prestige classes with no spellcasting prerequisites. I'm not sure if I like this level of "high-fantasy-ness". For that reason, I too prefer the "+1 to spellcasting class" upgrade every second level or so.
As for the master-of-alchemical-stuff-that-recreates-spells concept, I too think it is ill represented in the 3.x version. The concept in itself worth some mind-bending 'though...
just my too coppers...
'findel
Eh, I didn't and don't mind them having some spell use, however I think it should be the strictly ultalitarian stuff, spider climb, darkness, invisibility, detect magic, see invisibility, et al. The problem with saying "Just multi-class more" is that multiclassing in a system that only goes to level 20 means you aren't going to be what you are trying to be, and everything suffers math wise (with the possible exception of save throws).
However if the craft(alchemy) skill was expanded more so tools that mimic some spell features were more available I think it would be a good thing, that could get rid of some of the need for spell progression for many PrC's. One issue I have is the need to be a spell caster to even craft some of the alchemical stuff. That's just wonky in my opinion.
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Creative Director
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Well, if that is the case, I'm OK with it. I like the Assassin better without spells. I'm firmly in the camp that feels fewer spell casting classes are better - leave spells to the actual spell casters.
Any chance Jason or someone else from Paizo could confirm this ????
Not yet. We'll confirm it or deny it eventually.
I'm going to weigh in, and say that they'd better get some very serious compensation for this loss, particularly with the increase in class features for the primary caster classes.
Well, given the history of the actual organisation, the Nizari Hashashin, and their mix of 'alchemical' and 'devoted' prowess (let alone those of Asian orders/organisations with supposed magical abilities)
Sounds like a good argument for giving them a craft alchemical item ability bonus. Or perhaps some sort of concentration check bonuses a la 3.5 kensai. As an aside, it kills me when people suggest that ninjas should have magic. Naruto is not a documentary.
To be able to get past magical defences and scrying, etc., does it not make a certain sense that dedicated orders would train individuals in the arts necessary to accomplish their missions, without putting them through low-level Wizard, Sorcerer (if that even counts as training), or even hang out with a Bard or bad Ranger?
Well, the fastest path to Assassin involves Rogue. In fact, you pretty much have to take at least one Rogue level. And y'know, they get training in all that. So no, I don't see why you'd think they need anything from other classes.
May I ask you a question?
-- Are you opposed to Rangers possessing spell-casting abilities, as well?
Yes, actually. I didn't think anyone would ever ask, but Ranger spells are stupid.
Ranger: "I hang out in the woods, tracking stuff. I'm a nimble fighter and good with ranged attacks. I've learned a lot about a few different kinds of creatures, so I can hunt them more efficiently."
Not Ranger: "Oh, cool. So you must cast a lot of spells then."
Ranger: "Of course!"
I love ditching spells, and do it any time I can with most classes that don't have full spellcasting. In other words, if I want to cast spells I'd play a caster. Rangers don't need it, Assassins don't need it. Bards only need it because they suck. ;)
The problem with making assassins +1 caster level/2 levels is that those of us who don't want spells are still getting screwed over. Casting is a powerful class ability, and that would mean that the class is balanced assuming that you cast, so if you don't you're out of luck. Which is exactly what happened with the old assassin. I LOVE murder, but I've never played an assassin because it wasn't worth my time. Give me a class with a death attack that might actually kill things occasionally, and poison that might do something at all. Or better yet, give me some kind of ability to increase my crit range or sneak attack damage; because the old assassin was a combination of abilities that only worked on NPCs several levels lower than you. And you had to wait 3 rounds to use your "best" one. Beh.
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I've always considered Rangers, Assassins, and their like to be people who dabble in spells because those kinds of people are practical. Magic works, and they might need some minor effect to achieve their goal.
I liked earlier editions of the game, where Rangers used arcane spells, better, though.
May I ask you a question?
-- Are you opposed to Rangers possessing spell-casting abilities, as well?Yes, actually. I didn't think anyone would ever ask, but Ranger spells are stupid.
Ranger: "I hang out in the woods, tracking stuff. I'm a nimble fighter and good with ranged attacks. I've learned a lot about a few different kinds of creatures, so I can hunt them more efficiently."
Not Ranger: "Oh, cool. So you must cast a lot of spells then."
Ranger: "Of course!"
I am not entirely suer it's like that.
More like this:
Ranger: "I hang out in the woods, tracking stuff. I'm a nimble fighter and good with ranged attacks. I've learned a lot about a few different kinds of creatures, so I can hunt them more efficiently. In addition, I've received fairly extensive training by friendly druids and/or masters of my order who themselves were taught by druids. This druidic magic really helps me in my job traveling the world, facing danger, and overcoming hardship."
Not Ranger: "Oh, cool. So you must cast a lot of spells then."
Ranger: "Well, not a lot. Really just a few. But they are pretty handy out there in the wilds."
In addition, I've received fairly extensive training by friendly druids and/or masters of my order who themselves were taught by druids. This druidic magic really helps me in my job traveling the world, facing danger, and overcoming hardship."
Then multiclass into druid. Ta da! Spells. =D
I'm not sure I really see the point of a generic non casting assassin PrC. Rogues seem to do the job much better. A 2 level dip into ranger for FE and TWF might be useful, but a rogue with a feat for poison use and a feat (or high level rogue ability) for death attack seems more effective.
I'm not sure I really see the point of a generic non casting assassin PrC. Rogues seem to do the job much better. A 2 level dip into ranger for FE and TWF might be useful, but a rogue with a feat for poison use and a feat (or high level rogue ability) for death attack seems more effective.
Well that's kind of the issue for me. Right now Rogues are better assassins than Assassins are. I'd like to see a change, but I don't have much to add constructively. I still think an increase to crit ranges and maybe a slightly higher DC for poison and death attacks would make a big difference.
Maybe a game mechanic bonus to infiltration somehow? I dunno.
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If assassins will not have spells, I wonder if the RED MANTIS ASSASSIN prestige class will get an update as well, or if they will just be kept the way they are - with spells...
The Red Mantis Assassins are actually agents of a well, they refer to Achaekek as the "Mantis God" but he's not really a true deity or even a demigod. Quasideity, maybe? Anyway, they actually worship a supernatural entity and receive spells from that worship. I can actually see the point of non-religious assassins not really needing spells, if they have enough class abilities (and perhaps a full BAB/d10 HD) to compensate.