There have been several suggestions about combining Warlock abilities into the Sorcerer class and creating a single class that is markedly different from the Wizard.
As I have thought about it, I'm liking the idea more and more.
Bloodlines can easily be expressed as pacts (I know, it's a rip off from 4E, but it's a cool idea)and it moves the Sorcerer that much closer to what many seem to feel it should be (as well as further from the highley ritualized Wizard).
What I'm currently thinking goes something like this.
NOTE: these ideas are drawn from many good ideas from people on the list, they are not all my ideas, I'm just shamlessley stealing them.
Add the ability to cast in light armor to the pathfinder Sorcerer.
Increase BA to average.
This, combined with the eschew material feat moves the Sorcerers casting to something closer to spell-like ability, which I think fit's the Sorcerer to a tee.
Adjust some of the bloodline abilities to be more like warlock invocations....at will spell like abilities based on the specific bloodline/pact that they made at first level.
Switch all of the bloodline first level abilities to some kind of touch attack (most of them have some form of blast allready, so just need a few new options for those that don't).
Allow Sorcerers to "invest" spell slots into the touch attack ability, gaining +1D6 dmg to their blast for each level of spell slot invested.
So what do people think of these ideas ?
What Ideas that have not been mentioned have you had ?
OK....here is a starting point for re-working the bloodlines.
I'm starting by using the same formula of a blast that does 1D6 +1/2CL.
looking at the bloodlines that do not currently have a blast.
Abyssal: 1st level Bloodline/Pact ability. Hellfire Blast (Su) Fire dmg.
Arcane: 1st level Bloodline/Pact ability. Eldritch Blast (Su)untyped.
Draconic: Breath weapon that does dmg based on dragon type.
Fey: ???
Infernal: Add 30 foot range.
Undead: Charnel Touch (Su): This ability allows you to channel negative energy through your hands at will (but no more than once per round), which you can use to either attack living foes or heal undead.
OK....here is a starting point for re-working the bloodlines.
I'm starting by using the same formula of a blast that does 1D6 +1/2CL.looking at the bloodlines that do not currently have a blast.
Abyssal: 1st level Bloodline/Pact ability. Hellfire Blast (Su) Fire dmg.
Arcane: 1st level Bloodline/Pact ability. Eldritch Blast (Su)untyped.
Draconic: Breath weapon that does dmg based on dragon type.
Fey: ???
Infernal: Add 30 foot range.
Undead: Charnel Touch (Su): This ability allows you to channel negative energy through your hands at will (but no more than once per round), which you can use to either attack living foes or heal undead.
As Kyrin has mentioned for Fey.
*Entangling roots / brambles that entangle for (x) rounds and deal minor damage.
Other possibilities off the top of my head:-
*Slowed movement as long as they touch the ground
*A daze effect / confusion for 1 round with psychic damage if they take any strenuous effect in thought or action. (punishment)
*Causes them to see the caster as if he/she had Mirror Images (3 copies).
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I did up one of these a while back, before Pathfinder became its own system, if anyone's interested. It uses a lot of OGL, non-WOTC material, as well as some homebrew stuff.
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Fey attacks could be mind-affecting 'glamer' blasts that do damage by attacking the spirit and senses and will of the target.
Or they could be 'fey-shot' and leave tiny arrowheads of flint buried in the target that causes it to suffer a -1 to all attacks, saves and checks until it is removed with a Heal check (DC 10).
Side-effects like Lesser Confusion or drunkenness (treat as the Sickened condition) or Slow or Sleep would also fit the theme.
Combining warlocks and Sorcerers is a mighty fine idea but I still think they shouldn't get to cast in armor. They still should be primary casters that don't use armor, mostly for the style but also because the use of armor would be an increase on one part of the class that would have to be balanced out on another, most certainly that would be the overall effectiveness of their casting. I think their focus should remain on casting as much as it does for wizards or the sorcerer the way it was so far. Only the use and maybe mechanics of their casting should change.
I like the idea of an entangeling blast for the Fey.....
Another thought I had was a gaze attack that causes confusion ?
Something like once you meet their gaze, you can't tear your eye's away from them.
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I'm loving a lot of these ideas, heres something I whiped up for somem who wanted to do just that.
Sorcerer Variant: Warlock
Lose normal Spell Progression aside from Cantrips, which you gain 3 + Chr modifier.
Instead of a Bloodline, you gain a Pact, which has Identical Effects.
Spells gained from the Pact are at will.
Every Even level you gain a feat from the favored feats from your pacts.
At level 3, and again at levels 7, 12, and 17, you gain an additional Pact of your choice. Pacts with similar powers (Ranged touch attacks, claw attacks, etc) may be stacked.
Gain Medium BAB, Medium Armor Proficieny
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Instead of a Bloodline, you gain a Pact, which has Identical EffectsWhy not call it a Blood Pact? Then you could say "aberrant blood" and mean either "aberrant bloodline" OR "aberrant blood pact," for example. Anyone who wants weird ancestors can have them, and anyone who'd rather have a pact can have that instead.
That is really an excellent Idea
Intriguing ideas... I'll have to watch to see where they lead.
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Why not call it a Blood Pact? Then you could say "aberrant blood" and mean either "aberrant bloodline" OR "aberrant blood pact," for example. Anyone who wants weird ancestors can have them, and anyone who'd rather have a pact can have that instead.
And that works really well for a game setting in which dragons are uber-rare and hardcore, and aren't likely to be dipping their dragon winkies in all sorts of non-dragon races. Say that you've entered a pact with such a beast, or even just an ancient order of sorcerers who have done so (and may never have met the ancient dragon said to have started the whole deal centuries ago), and boom, pure human (elf, whatever), but with 'draconic bloodline powerz.'
I'm loving a lot of these ideas, heres something I whiped up for somem who wanted to do just that.
Sorcerer Variant: Warlock
Lose normal Spell Progression aside from Cantrips, which you gain 3 + Chr modifier.
Instead of a Bloodline, you gain a Pact, which has Identical Effects.
Spells gained from the Pact are at will.Every Even level you gain a feat from the favored feats from your pacts.
At level 3, and again at levels 7, 12, and 17, you gain an additional Pact of your choice. Pacts with similar powers (Ranged touch attacks, claw attacks, etc) may be stacked.
Gain Medium BAB, Medium Armor Proficieny
If you are going to drop the Spell Progression, I would bump the first level attack ability a bit.
Something like 1D6 +1 per caster level at least (which is still a lot weaker than the current Warlock.I was thinking more along the lines of keeping the Sorcerer spell progression, keeping the first level attack power as is, and just switching some of the bloodline abilities to low level spell like abilities.
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I've not done the math, and its just a thought.
Keeping the basic damage of the at-will 'blast" 1d6 (+1 per caster level), with the option to 'consume' a spell level (x) and have the damage added to the blast; such as subsume a (level 7 character) level 3 spell slot for a 1d6 + 3d6 + 7.
Hmm, on second thought that does seems a little high, but it is a spell slot that's being traded in.
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Bloodlines can easily be expressed as pacts (I know, it's a rip off from 4E, but it's a cool idea)and it moves the Sorcerer that much closer to what many seem to feel it should be (as well as further from the highley ritualized Wizard).
Why replace one restrictive source for another?
Bloodlines (as good a name as any) should come from supernatural ancestry, or from being exposed to powerful forcers, or from making a pact with supernatural forces, or from who knows what else. Divine investiture.
Add the ability to cast in light armor to the pathfinder Sorcerer.
Increase BA to average.
This, combined with the eschew material feat moves the Sorcerers casting to something closer to spell-like ability, which I think fit's the Sorcerer to a tee.
I'm not sure whether an average BAB (which goes hand in hand with d8 HD) and full progression sorcerous spellcasting in armour aren't too powerful.
And taking away sorcerer spells would go too far I think.
I'd keep the spell list, and the poor BAB.
I'd introduce an at will power - call it eldritch bolt, arcane arrow, or something like that - that deals magical damage at a ranged touch. Say, 1d6 + another d6 at 5, 10, 15, 20.
Let offensive bloodline powers affect this arcane arrow by changing it from bolt to something else, adding damage, changing its type, or lacing it with other effects.
Let sorcerers also lace it with spells, so the target of your eldritch bolt will also be the target (or centre) of a spell (or of area spells), all in one action.
Golarion Goblin,
Let's see what you have.
Sure thing. I uploaded it here. Trying to get tables on the message boards is a pain in the butt...
Admittedly, it's based off the 3.5 system, so it'd need some reworking but all in all, I don't think it's that bad. Of course I never got the chance to playtest it, so I could just be talking out my hindquarters.
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If you are going to drop the Spell Progression, I would bump the first level attack ability a bit.
Something like 1D6 +1 per caster level at least (which is still a lot weaker than the current Warlock.
I like the idea of multipule claw powers stacking with those touch attacks. But I worry about power balance until I think about the greatsword.
It's not even so much the weapon as the weilder and its BAB and HPs.
If the 'Sworlock' were confined to Light Armour with no Arcane Spell Failure -OR- a d8 HD, but got the Medium BAB scheme, I'd be pleased as punch. But, we know that the inclusion of both resulted in a reduced spell regimen for WotC's Battle Sorcerer, and I'm not too thrilled with that.
My vote is either one, but not both, thus avoiding the spell-nerfing.At-Will Rays empowered by the Blood/Pact energies (or claw attacks for those that have them and the same energy stack), plus a little more combat umph, seems like a solid balance -- and the distinctiveness we have been asking for.
> excited <
I know the battle sorcerer lost one spell of highest level, to make up for it's increase to BA, and the ability to cast in light armor, but as the pathfinder classes have been a bit of a bump in power anyway, I'm not so sure it's unbalanced.
I mean look at the Duskblade....sure he has a limited spell list, but full BA, can cast in medium armor, and higher HD ?
And although it's a strong class, it's not broken.
A Warlock allready has the cast in light armor, average BA, and no spell components, as well as multiple at will SL's.
Using the bloodline from pathfinder greatly reduces the damage from eldritch blast, and what we are looking at are a lot fewer SL's, so Im not convinced it's overpowered.
Your turn....
Your turn....After writing that last post, I did think of the power-ramp that PF has taken, but I wonder if Backward Compatibility has been factored-in at all in that analysis.
I'm not adverse to making the Class 'reasonably powerful/useful' for a PF-only game, but wonder if a WotC Warlock would match-up, all other factors being equal (race, level, etc.)
Other than that one outdated, and perhaps silly concern, I'm absolutely eager to see a full write-up. :P
Will you, Marian, undertake the first (revised) draft, so that I can more accurately see where the proposed Class is at, mechanically?BTW, having a great time in this thread. Thanks for starting it. :D
-K
Damn I wish I could change the name (grimace).
Actually my name is Nighttree (Marian is my female housemate who let me use her CC to make an order....now I'm stuck with the name in my profile):)The revision I'm suggesting is actually pretty simple.
Taking the Sorcerer "as is" as a starting point.
Just bump BA to average.
Add ability to cast in light armor.
Everything else on the base class stays as is.
The work comes in regards to the bloodlines themselves.
3rd level bloodline power would need to be a Sp ability (that fits the theme of the bloodline)of probably equivalant power to a 1st or 2nd level spell, possibly increasing to equivalant of a 3rd or 4th level spell at 9th level.
At 9th level, you would gain an additional at will Sp, equal to a 3rd or 4th level spell, that would increase to the equivalant of a 5th or 6th level spell at 17th level.
At 15th level, you would gain an Sp equal to a 6th level or higher spell.
The real work is in finding spells that fit the theme of the bloodline, and that have logical scaling variants for them to bump up to.
Example: Celestial bloodline......
3rd level: Protection from evil (as the spell) at will as a Sp ability
At 9th level, this functions as Magic circle against evil, at 17th level it functions as Dispel evil (just an example, the particular spell chain may be to powerful for an "at will" ability).
9th level:Cure criticle wounds at will, at 17th level, functions as Mass cure moderate wounds (just an example, the particular spell chain may be to powerful for an "at will" ability).
At 15th level: Use Holy Aura as an at will Sp (just an example, the particular spell chain may be to powerful for an "at will" ability).
The only hurdle to balance I see, is making sure that the replacement abilities of the bloodline are not "cherry picked" to break game balance.
The best starting point I can think of is to look at existing Warlock invocations.
Many already have logical chains (Beguiling influence, Charm, Devils Whispers ) and are balanced as "at will" abilities.
* Question: When you say BAB is upped, does this also include the d8 HD?
Thanks,
To be honest, I'm not sure.
There appears to be a consistant trend of HD based on BA, but I'm not sure how fixed that is.With the increase already given to Sorcerers and Wizards, I think I would be ok with leaving HD as is.
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I'm glad you were able to fix the Identity issue. ;)Okay, what if, instead, we gave the 'Sworlock' levalable bonuses to hit with their Bloodline powers/attacks.
That way they wouldn't become more adept in general combat, but simply their own powers.Thoughts?
HHhhmmmm.....that has potential.
What if their touch attacks where BA (as is) + Cha mod ?
Kind of like a finnesse fighter using Dex, instead of Str.
That way they would be better with thier Sp's, but not markedly better than a Wizard with melee.
Thoughts ?
I often think about spell attacks being made with caster level rather than BAB.
Kae,
So, essentially, a CLDC 'to hit'?
With ChaMod., in this case, as the governor?
Yeah. Attack roll, but Caster level instead of BAB, and spell attribute (i.e. Cha for Sorcerers) instead of Str/Dex.
Of course, I don't know whether this wouldn't be too much, since it's a touch attack, but still.