There are quite a lot (and at least one very heavy) discussions about sorcerers vs. wizard and the casting progression - balancing the sorcerer against the wizard.
I don't think the casting progression needs much work. The sorcerer might be slightly inferior or superior in this specific area, but I don't really think the differences are great.
However what bugs me is, that the sorcerer compared to the wizard is such a "idiot savant". He can cast spells. Great. No need to prepare. He's not devoted to this stuff. Defining for the sorcerer, compared to the wizard, apart from being able to cast somewhat more spells, though, are the bloodlines. This is what gives him his powers. It should have a high impact for him.
The bloodlines are very neat, but as I percieve them ingame so far, not defining enough. The low level powers mostly become irrelevant quickly (dealing 1d6+1/2 sorcerer caster level damage? Nice at level 1. But at level 10? Or being able to do 2 melee attacks with claws? With low attack progression? Would only make some more sense if you cross class into some high-attack-power class, but then you don't benefit from the higher bloodline effects.)
So I am not yet convinced the bloodlines (which are a great idea) play the role they should play. They should IMO be a lot more relevant to a sorcerer. At the moment the bloodline is an addon to the sorcerer, but the way they are described it feels to me a bit more like the Sorcerer should be built around his bloodline.
To further this, bloodlines could have effects on how a sorcerer chooses his spells or action in combat or out of combat. The sorcerer should be more compelled to use his bloodline powers. At the moment some of the defining "active" features are hard to use at later levels, because their effectiveness does not increase (see above) and because they have little impact on the overall behaviour and tactics of a sorcerer. Some seem bad choices even (Abyssal Bloodline claws? See below.)
For exmaple: An elemental bloodline might deal additional damage with spells of some specific energy (like fire) or raise the save DC for such spells or the caster level.
The claws for the abyssal bloodline are nice, but it would be better and more defining if such a sorcerer would be actually compelled to use this class feature: Give the claws additional attack bonus with time (maybe so that using comes a bit closer to medium attack progression) along with something that protects the sorcerer a bit, when forced to fight like that (who goes into a melee, even with 2 claw attacks, with low hit points AND armor class?).
I don't have it all worked through yet, but I think the examples above explain what I mean?
Another thing that bugs me is, that a sorcerer is such an "idiot savant" compared to the wizard. The wizard gets 2+Int skill points, just like the sorcerer, but oh look: The wizard uses Int for casting, too. So he has more skill points.
The greater choices in skill selection AND spells (along with the "un-staggered" progress in gaining spells) are not yet compensated by the sorcerers bloodlines and more spells.
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I understand your points and agree to a point. The bloodlines could all use a little tweaking and clarification. The advantage of those 1d6+1/2 level rays is that they are at will essentially. In otherwords you never run out, you can keep shooting all day. if you make them more powerful you are going to have to start docking spells from the Sorcerer to balance it out. The claws are just a trap IMHO. The only use I see for them is a multiclass Fighter/Mage type build. You'll get eaten alive after 4th or 5th level if you try to run up as a straight sorcerer with those and keep up with a fighter or even a rogue or monk.
Oddly though, I think it is a balanced situation. With the arcane bond the wizard, to me, seems to be the answer man and the Sorcerer, especially with those bloodlines, seems to be the blaster man. Yes the wizard has his skills (due to his int and the better list) but if you want to build a weapons platform, the sorcerer is by far the better route. I still love my problem solving mage, but if you just want bang, sorcerer is still better. Kind of like it that way though. They each have their niche of the Arcane Market (coke and pepsi if you will)
I admit, I don't like the blasting focus of the sorcerer. And being ONLY a weapons platform is a bit bleak (especially if a sorcerer does NOT go that way) - and his advantage in spells per day isn't that great compared to a specialist wizard.
However, I agree: the casting progression doesn't need to be touched.
My point also was not to increase the power of the level 1 powers, because they are too weak overall, but rather, because they don't matter later on. And if that happens, their features are not defining for a sorcerer. And that is sad, because the bloodline represents the source of a sorcerers power.
I also don't think, that it really matters, if a sorcerer never runs out of spells because 1d6+10 (at level 20) for a blast is ridicolous. It won't matter, EVEN as an "at will" power. At least I have seen few mid- to high-level fights in which these few hit points such a power could have dealt, would have made a difference. On the way to the big boss, indeed, an at-will power might win a round or two, but I've also not experienced such numbers to be relevant: We're skimming through Maur Castle and have been half way through Age of Worms (with different groups) and the Sorcerer simply did not need to act, when the enemies were too weak, thus saving his spells. Not even our wizards did run out of spells before the end-fight.
The better way would be, to increase the impact of such powers, so that they actually would matter and display the effect of the bloodline of the sorcerer and at the same time limit their uses in some way.
The higher level powers of course are better in that regard, but often these powers are passive (damage reductions, energy resistances, even invisibility, though that is one of the better features). They don't serve well as a showcase or an impact on the sorcerers way of behaviour, action or spell choice.
The focus of improvements of the bloodlines should really be to increase the impact, to make them more defining, not to increase the power. In some cases one might lead to the other, but that's really not the point.
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A Sorceror with claw attacks can become a very good mage hunter though.
He/she gets to bypass most of the magical defenses mages can muster by using magic themselves and then get the addded bonus of being able wallop the enemy caster.
Imagine a sorceror that can fly, cast enlarge or bull's strength, improved invis and bear's endurance. Not only do they get to buff the party this way but they themsleves become pretty damn impressive in combat against low AC targets like enemy casters or skirmishers. These are buff spells a sorcoeror may not have taken in the past as most people (that i know at any rate) tend to play nuking casters. With this bloodline, it makes sense to take these spells.
For times when blasintg is needed, take scrolls or wands, or maybe the odd blasting spell.
The trick here, I believe, is to think outside the normal constraints of what a sorceror was thought of (another version of the wizard). Your bloodline allows you to focus on what you want to be good at.
I agree that some of them need tweaking, but also think many of us have yet to really get our heads around what they can be in game terms.
I took the elemetal bloodline with my sorceror (air). The freedom it allowed me for spell selection was fanatastic. I got some great blasting type spells from my bloodline (which my fellow party members expect from me) but now I also get to spend on various other spells. Haste, hold monster and fly are all fnatsatic spells that make my entire party more effective and I can cast numerous times as required, but I still have blasting spells.
Yay for bloodlines :)
A Sorceror with claw attacks can become a very good mage hunter though.
You're kidding, right?
He/she gets to bypass most of the magical defenses mages can muster by using magic themselves and then get the addded bonus of being able wallop the enemy caster.
How is this different from every other arcane spellcaster, except one has to be in melee range to do their thing? Also, melee range is something most arcane casters avoid like plague, so it shouldn't be easy to close in.
Imagine a sorceror that can fly, cast enlarge or bull's strength, improved invis and bear's endurance. Not only do they get to buff the party this way but they themsleves become pretty damn impressive in combat against low AC targets like enemy casters or skirmishers. These are buff spells a sorcoerer may not have taken in the past as most people (that i know at any rate) tend to play nuking casters. With this bloodline, it makes sense to take these spells.
Even nuking deals more damage than claws after 1st level. A claw does 1d6+str (avg 3.5+str) while shocking grasp deals 2d6 (avg 7)at 2nd level. Also, shocking grasp hits more often. If one assumes a sorcerer will get his full attack with two claw attacks, shocking grasp becomes superior choice at 4th level. Incidentally, 4th level sorcerers get scorching ray, which doesn't even require casting at melee (read: suicide) range. Claws fail when compared to nuking, and nuking fails when compared to save or suck spells.
For times when blasintg is needed, take scrolls or wands, or maybe the odd blasting spell.
Blasting scrolls and wands fail, because blasting is all about caster levels. Also, blasting fails in general.
The trick here, I believe, is to think outside the normal constraints of what a sorceror was thought of (another version of the wizard). Your bloodline allows you to focus on what you want to be good at.
Melee with natural weapons at low attack bonus is not one of these things.
A Sorceror with claw attacks can become a very good mage hunter though.You're kidding, right?
I have to agree with Lehmuska here. It will be very hard for a sorcerer to actually matter when it comes to melee. The claws are a bad example and I think a very bad choice, when it comes to Bloodline powers. The limiting factors are the bad attack progression of a sorcerer compared with his lack of "tanking". The sorcerer isn't meant for this. If he were to actually use a power like that, the power would have to be designed in a way, that she doesn't fail all over the place (I am aware, I am exaggerating here a bit).
That's what my suggestions were all about: Making sure the bloodline matters.
Imagine a sorceror that can fly, cast enlarge or bull's strength, improved invis and bear's endurance. Not only do they get to buff the party this way but they themsleves become pretty damn impressive in combat against low AC targets like enemy casters or skirmishers.
I'd use a rogue for hunting down enemy mages and low AC targets. If these do exist(!). I'd say the buffing should be the cleric's realm. And I'd say either of them does that a lot better than a sorcerer.
Besides: Melee range is always a problem. You don't wanna go there as a sorcerer, because you have too little protection to actually take this kind of course. This is where the bloodline powers reach too short.
OR if you don't want to act the sorcerer in such ways, there simply shouldn't be such a bloodline power, that compels such a way of action. If you get some kind of power, especially if this power should be "defining" in some way for the class or character, you want to use it and you don't want to be punished for using it.
Now, try going into melee with a sorcerer. I think I can predict the outcome under usual circumstances.
Even nuking deals more damage than claws after 1st level. [...] Claws fail when compared to nuking, and nuking fails when compared to save or suck spells.
Let's not go into this direction of a being stronger than Y and Y stronger than Z. The point isn't which way of attack is strong. It is, what course of action is suggested by a certain design. Do the powers support that way of action or do they contradict it? Or do they not matter at all? There is some kind of connection with each of these issues, just the focus is a lot different.
The trick here, I believe, is to think outside the normal constraints of what a sorceror was thought of (another version of the wizard). Your bloodline allows you to focus on what you want to be good at.Melee with natural weapons at low attack bonus is not...
That is indeed the trick. This is exactly my point - and you are more or less both right here IMO: You don't use wands and scrolls for blasting because of Spell Resistance. If blasting fails or not? Is not important here. (IMHO!)
The bloodline modifies the sorcerer in certain ways - or it should, but at the moment this goal is not yet achieved, because quite some of the bloodline pwoers either do not propose a way of action (because they are passive instead of active - a bit sad, if the sorcerer is built around that power) or they simply have too little impact in an encounter (like the claws with low attack progression or the blasts with rather ridicolous amounts of damage at later levels).Maybe my perception of the goal of bloodlines is wrong. I'm quite eager to hear from an official source, what the bloodlines SHOULD be and why they are designed the way they are.
Okay, I will try to make clear, what I think, is good and what is bad with specific examples. I will try to pick a "bad" and "good" bloodline. This is not a rating per-se, just in terms of "compelling" a way of action.
"Bad" design: Abyssal blood line (pg. 43):
Claws - with low attack progression and no adequate defense, this kind of attack will arely be used.
Good about the claws are the modifications with time so that they can overcome DR or make a bit more damage.
Demon Resistance - passive. No way of action
Strength of the Abyss - neat to boost the effect of the claws. By far not enough to matter and still doesn't solve the other side: Inadequate defenses and "tanking". "Nice try", I'd say.
Added Summonings - now here I can actually see some suggestion why you would want to apply certain strategies. Level 15? Too late, I'd say.
Demonic might - passive. No way of action suggested.
Overall there are too few options wich actually compel a way of action and those that do (claws, strength) push you into a direction, that you cannot actually go as a sorcerer. Melee just isn't the way.
Suggestion: Maybe add an attack bonus to the demon claw or: Invent a "demon form" which the sorcerer can hold for a few rounds (maybe level rounds) which will give him some AC enhancement and / or temporary hit points along with the attack - but it might hinder his casting.
"Better" design: Infernal bloodline (pg. 47):
Corrupting Touch - at will touch attack (no save) which also eases enchantment stuff (though maybe not best for THIS bloodline, rather for the Fey bloodline, but okay). Nice because: It can really easy your life and makes using enchantment effects more effective, thus suggeting a way of action.
Infernal Resistances - passive. No way of action suggested
Hellfire - a rather effective attack that deals some damage
On Dark wings - flight. Neat!
Power of the pit - mostly passive.
I deliberately chose Infernal and Abyssal Bloodline, as you might guess. This design is better, because the active actions actually are better usable. You still have the problem of getting into melee, if you want to use them, but they seem more like "life savers" in a tight spot and they are designed in ways that they will likely stay relevant over the levels.
General Suggestions:
- Maybe create a power that adds "vile" damage (or something else) to fire spells, making it more likely (and useful) to use them. Maybe around level 9 instead of a direct attack power. Would be fitting for Infernal or Abyssal bloodlines.
Actually a "good" design in this way of viewing and "rating" powers is the 3rd level Arcane bloodline power "Metamagic Adept", because it makes it more likely for a sorcerer to use metamagics. It proposes a way of action.
I hope I managed to make it clear, that I am not talking about an increase of power in the bloodlines, but rather about making them more a "center" of the character.
And again: Maybe my perception of the bloodlines is incorrect?
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What if they gained a polymorph instead. The pathfinder polymorph added fixed benefits to the character.
Sorceror runs out of spells but morphs into demonic form - slight boost to AC or maybe DR, slight boost to Strength and gains claw attacks. Still not optimal but better than shooting crossbow.
The effect could scale so as he/she/it progresses they get stronger in this area - More AC/DR/Str, incrase in damage die, overcome DR, flight etc.
Oh, and I wasn't joking earlier btw. There's a poster on one of the other threads in this section who states he's doing just this with his sorceror, and it's working. Jason Buhlman even stated he felt this was where he pictured the bloodlines taking the class, down alternate paths to the traditional role.
There have been many threads where people argue magic users are untouchable at higher levels due to invis, flight, SR effects. The trouble is getting someone close enough to hit them and see them and fly with them. A sorceror can do this quite easily, and with claws and buffs becomes a threat.
I wasn't suggesting they were perfect, but more suggesting people need to think more about the application of the bloodlines. I take all your points though, and agree it needs tweaking.
Cheers
I think that if your going to give melee bloodline abilities to Sorcerers, then you should at least have their other bloodline abilities and spells make them worthwhile melee fighters, not just squishies with claws... In fact, I think they should make a melee bloodline. Then we would finally have a core melee arcanist. The bloodline powers/spells would need to make going in close a viable option instead of suicide, then you would just pick melee support, close range damage, and quick escape/movement spells.
I'll see if I can come up with one myself, and I'll post it when I'm done. Should I post it here, or should I make a thread for it?
Any suggestions before I start? Either on the bloodline abilities/spells or on what spells would be appropriate for a melee Sorcerer build?
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The Arcane Fighter has been discussed on numerous boards. The thing I keep seeing again and again is that either it is way to powerful or just not worth the paper it is printed on. If you make it a good enough fighter it can't be much of a caster, if you make it a pretty good caster then getting in close tends to result in you making a new character. Trying to adapt one bloodline into an arcane warrior will most likely result in a lot of rules to keep that particular bloodline from being to powerful and still able to do enough to be enjoyable to play. That many rules are best relegated to a new class, not just an option of another one.
I think that if your going to give melee bloodline abilities to Sorcerers, then you should at least have their other bloodline abilities and spells make them worthwhile melee fighters, not just squishies with claws... In fact, I think they should make a melee bloodline. Then we would finally have a core melee arcanist. The bloodline powers/spells would need to make going in close a viable option instead of suicide, then you would just pick melee support, close range damage, and quick escape/movement spells.
I'll see if I can come up with one myself, and I'll post it when I'm done. Should I post it here, or should I make a thread for it?
Any suggestions before I start? Either on the bloodline abilities/spells or on what spells would be appropriate for a melee Sorcerer build?
Draconic Bloodline -> Dragon Discipline
I know it's a Prestige Class but you do retain your casting progression and your bloodline powers continue to improve. This is the route if you are interested in doing the melee/ casting thing. You can also take levels in martial classes to help keep your BAB up. I was thinking perhaps sorcerer 2/ barbarian 3 then dragon discipline. You lose a lot of caster levels but it keeps your BAB pretty decent and you get rage which helps.
Not to mention the class features. If you like class features dragon disciple is nice.
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I think we all agree that the bloodlines need more, the question is more what? Here are the options I see:
1. More abilities added on to what's there.
2. New abilities to replace some of what is there already.
3. Adding more spell options to each bloodline
4. Upping the baseline of the sorcerer class with more generic class features and leaving the bloodlines allow. see here for an idea on that.
anythign I missed?
Not to mention the class features. If you like class features dragon disciple is nice.
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I think we all agree that the bloodlines need more, the question is more what? Here are the options I see:
1. More abilities added on to what's there.
2. New abilities to replace some of what is there already.
3. Adding more spell options to each bloodline
4. Upping the baseline of the sorcerer class with more generic class features and leaving the bloodlines allow. see here for an idea on that.anythign I missed?
It would be interesting giving a bonus spell per level.
Also, the spells should be tied in better with the power. The Aberrant bloodline is just begging for touch spells and yet there are very few.
The Arcane Fighter has been discussed on numerous boards. The thing I keep seeing again and again is that either it is way to powerful or just not worth the paper it is printed on. If you make it a good enough fighter it can't be much of a caster, if you make it a pretty good caster then getting in close tends to result in you making a new character. Trying to adapt one bloodline into an arcane warrior will most likely result in a lot of rules to keep that particular bloodline from being to powerful and still able to do enough to be enjoyable to play. That many rules are best relegated to a new class, not just an option of another one.
Right after I posted, I came to the conclusion that I couldn't make an effective general purpose melee bloodline anyway, so I decided to make a mage killer melee who can defend himself in actual melee just long enough to escape from it. I'm thinking of giving it either good touch spells or spell like abilities since they target arcanists worst defence... AC. I'm also considering giving them true strike as a swift action spell like ability a number of times per day; because, if I'm reading the rules right, it gives you +20 to touch attacks. That might be overpowered though, I'm not sure yet.
ah - for a moment there I was ... afraid. I don't think the Sorcerer should become an arcane melee specialist. I think that idea in itself is cool, but indeed it might be too imbalancing. I've seen things like that in our normal D&D 3.5 group, where one player plays a duskblade.
No, if you give the sorcerer melee abilities he shouldn't be able to use them for long - long enough to get out of it again sounds fine by me.
and the general course? The sorcerer doesn't need additional powers either, I think. Some of the bloodline powers present however should be exchanged to allow a more "active" design. That's the only thing that IMO needs to ne done. It's cool when you can resist that energy type or reduce that damage, but it's a lot cooler, when you can actually do stuff.
And when the stuff you do actually mirrors your bloodline.
the bloodlines are a perfect idea. I really like it. BUT:
A sorcerer is not a frontline character at all. So the claws shout be changed to an elemental ray like the Elemental Bloodline.
In addition the bonus spells for the bloodlines should be changed:
I see no sense in three spells like form of the dragon I, II, III or elemental body 1-4. Each spell is interesting and fits to the character. But if a sorcerer has “form of the dragon III” he might has no use of the “form of the dragon” I-II.
Proposal: on every even level the sorcerer can change bloodline spells as a normal chosen spells. E.G
If a sorcerer reaches level 18 he might change the “form of the dragon I” spell to any other spell of level 6.
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A sorcerer is not a frontline character at all. So the claws shout be changed to an elemental ray like the Elemental Bloodline.
I disagree. One of the purposes behind the bloodlines is to afford players the flexibility of providing the Sor some melee prowess. Plus, I think it would be boring if every bloodline simply had a ray attack at 1st level. There is plenty of diversity between the existing bloodlines, and several options if you want that warlock-like ray attack.
ah - for a moment there I was ... afraid. I don't think the Sorcerer should become an arcane melee specialist. I think that idea in itself is cool, but indeed it might be too imbalancing. I've seen things like that in our normal D&D 3.5 group, where one player plays a duskblade.
No, if you give the sorcerer melee abilities he shouldn't be able to use them for long - long enough to get out of it again sounds fine by me.
The Duskblade fulfills a very different role than the Melee Sorcerer. The Duskblade is meant to be a melee fighter with limited combat spells to help them augment their damage and survivability. They should get stuck in the fight and stay there.
Yes, you can build a sorcerer to match that. But the melee-combat sorcerers that have been very different. They prowl the sidelines, picking off enemy casters, setting up flank attacks for rogues, and generally wreaking havoc. They fall back via Flight and Misdirection when confronted with fighters and barbarians, then use Fireballs and Cones of Cold to help out.
Melee sorcerers aren't meant to be front-line fighters. They're not meant to be support fighters. They're meant to be crafty, rogue-type skulkers, with a heck of a punch waiting when they need it. The bloodlines enhance this by giving them a few melee abilities they can augment with a careful spell selection.
If you make all the bloodlines variations on the same theme (rays, resistance, etc.) you diminish the variations on the sorcerer builds.