At low level the crit systems work fine letting you deal 2 or 3 times more damage then normal on your rare good hits.....but the higher level you get the more out of control the system is. with adding better magic weapons, feats to improve your crit range and also feat the step up your crit multipler one step, example x2 to x3. Weapon mastery feat that increases the dice damage of your weapon by step....1d8 to 1d10. and farbid if they use the monkey grip feat to use a larger weapon with weapon master....damage is just stuped then.
I have a player in my campaign that use about half of all the things i have found to add to this problem ...and the damage he does at levels around 15 to 20 is around 160 to 320 damage per round bepending on how many crit hits he gets.
god this is more damage then five great wyrm breath weapons.
At low level the crit systems work fine letting you deal 2 or 3 times more damage then normal on your rare good hits.....but the higher level you get the more out of control the system is. with adding better magic weapons, feats to improve your crit range and also feat the step up your crit multipler one step, example x2 to x3. Weapon mastery feat that increases the dice damage of your weapon by step....1d8 to 1d10. and farbid if they use the monkey grip feat to use a larger weapon with weapon master....damage is just stuped then.
I have a player in my campaign that use about half of all the things i have found to add to this problem ...and the damage he does at levels around 15 to 20 is around 160 to 320 damage per round bepending on how many crit hits he gets.
god this is more damage then five great wyrm breath weapons.
Sorry, I like seeing melee's do that. Bout time we saw the "fighters" (that includes ALL classes with full BAB) do something in combat other than soak up damage so the casters can have all the fun.
No offense to you at all, but Wizards should not be the only class that is any real threat of doing awesome damage.
no offense taken
I'm not really worried about the warrior types doing damage. I my self play rogue mixed characters and like being able to help out the party in taking out the monsters and not just be the trap finder/door opener.
But it is the amount of damage that in the crit system as it is now, with all the feat and ability chooses that you can get that i would like to see some work on. Maybe a max damage per character level for all classes in a given round.
I have put up a party of four 17th level characters: Invoker, Arcane Archer, Cleric, Paladin. Up against a monster like: Great Wyrm Red Dragon CR 26(which means that a party of four 26 level characters should have an average time killing) HP-660 on average AC 41.
This monster might live to see the start of the second round at least it, but it wont be able to do anything in that second round. the archer goes first most times doing around 250 to 300 points of damage on average with low hit rolls being around 44-47. ok monster at half hp now. next is the paladin - most of the time the others wait for him to get in close to use spells so they wont pick something that hits him also. He does around 75 to 100 points of damage at this level if all attacks hits. Monster has around 200 left. wizard an cleric both go together sense they held their actions an each do around 75 eash. Sometimes they pull out a good combo that can kill the monster at the end of the round. Monsters at 100hp average right now. Most of the time the monster attacks before the castes get there chance.
OK, start of second round archer attacks average damage 250 again....monster dead.
And if he gets alot of crit hits he does around 400 plus damage in one round of attacks so the monster can sometimes die in round one.
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Hey what ability increases your crit modifier, I'd love to take it for my pick that way I have a x5 crit, I'm building a crit pick character.
See I actually would prefer to be able to get that kind of damage without turning every melee oriented character I get into a crit build. The problem is that the same amount of damage you're talking about CAN be done each round by the caster, or the caster can specialize in building his DCs to astronomical levels and learning nothing but save or sucks. What good is dealing 200-500 damage if the creature was essentially taken out of the fight in the first round?
I don't remember the name of the feat but i have read it a few times demanding the player to show me it. because his archer is x4 crit damage. I wont to say it is in one of the complete books...going to look it up next game and drop a the name and full detail of the feat here.
But that is what i'm saying even much higher level monsters die to fast for the players....and if I increase the monster to high so it can live a few rounds....it ends up killing party members with one hit attacks of some kind.
I see no easy way to fix this....... As a DM for over 15 years I really don't like the Crit system that 3rd added to the D&D RPG.
Another Idea that I had and worked the numbers own.....is to change what you multipy with the crit number each weapon has.
So that you only multipy the base weapon damage with either str bonus or magic bonus to damage......all other bonus to damage now falling into the group of sneak attacks, etc that is not multipied.
This reduces the damage for melee crit build characters of 15th level to around 180 max damage per round on average - depending on weapon type and stuff of course.
Crits are fine:
Weapons no more than 20/x4, OR 18-20/x2, with 19-20 and /x3 also being possible (and I think there's even one weapon with 19-20/x3.
In the core rules, you can double the range, to a max of 15-20 for rapiers and such. You can do that with the keen weapon enhancement, or with the Improved Critical feat. You cannnot combine both.
Level 20 fighters also get to increase the multiplier by 1, for a maximum of x5.
That's all there is in the core rules. And that's not too much I think.
Of course, other sources can create feats like "Greater Critical" that increase the range again and stack with Improved Critical, or a feat that doubles the multiplier, but that doesn't mean the crit system is flawed, it means that those sources are created by munchkins for munchkins.
Note: The most effective weapon for a fighter is often one with a high threat range, rather than a high multiplier. So a falchion (18-20/x2) is better than a scythe (x4). Better more weak crits than few strong ones.
is it really because of criticals? I suppose I usually find high level fighter types dishing out the damage just by hitting a lot with normal attacks.
and I think that with your example, it's more that the CR system breaks down at high levels, rather than crits being a problem. Perhaps crits are *a* problem, but there are lots of things that contribute to high level parites needing challenges 6-8 CRs above them for a good fight.
Also, most of these monsters have no buffs on, even if the dragon has only a few "all-day" buffs on himself, that really helps him reduce damage. Example: Mage armor, gives your red an AC of 45. If he picked up quicken spell, then sheild can bring him to 49 on the first round, and if he feels like it, sheild of faith brings him up to 54. He'll get hit a lot, sure, but then any good red dragon has Heal prepped, maybe a Time Stop for extra buffs, so that will get him back up and fighting pretty damn quickly.
I know alot of people think different ways but what i'm looking for is a way to reduce the damage that crits do a little, mostly about 30% of the current D&D 3.5 system......because our group is more fighter based then mage....the only mage is kind of funny ....an invoker that is not really even close to the nuke type. He prefers the flash more then the damage out put..
this is were the archer comes in and dealing more damage then the monster around their level CR has hit points, giving the CR's above and below,
What i wonted with starting this thread is like alot of things I have seen in the Pathfinder RPG they give you like xp advancment slow, mid, an fast. And i was hopeing to work out with you a more moderate Crit System....that i can use to control the damage, without making all the monsters Elite......which after a while i'll getting tired of. and Taking more time out of plaing the campaign for the players.
And in hopes that it would be introduced Into the Pathfinder Game to helps other DM's and Player like use out here.
Crits are fine:
Weapons no more than 20/x4, OR 18-20/x2, with 19-20 and /x3 also being possible (and I think there's even one weapon with 19-20/x3.
In the core rules, you can double the range, to a max of 15-20 for rapiers and such. You can do that with the keen weapon enhancement, or with the Improved Critical feat. You cannnot combine both.
Level 20 fighters also get to increase the multiplier by 1, for a maximum of x5.
That's all there is in the core rules. And that's not too much I think.
Of course, other sources can create feats like "Greater Critical" that increase the range again and stack with Improved Critical, or a feat that doubles the multiplier, but that doesn't mean the crit system is flawed, it means that those sources are created by munchkins for munchkins.
Note: The most effective weapon for a fighter is often one with a high threat range, rather than a high multiplier. So a falchion (18-20/x2) is better than a scythe (x4). Better more weak crits than few strong ones.
Minotaur Great Hammer 1d12 18-20 (x4) (It's a 2hander so 1 1/2 str)
Monker Grip to use a LARGE one, Impact increases crit range to 15-20, Wizard casts Mighty Wallop to increase its damage by 3 size CATEGORIES, (SPELL LASTS 24 HOURS AT HIGH LEVEL), Power Attack, Leap Attack TRIPLES strength mod on normal hit.
That doesn't even cost the character that much, 3 feats a friendly spell caster, and a + Weapon. Add other feats and it really does become a bit insane.
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Crits are fine:
Weapons no more than 20/x4, OR 18-20/x2, with 19-20 and /x3 also being possible (and I think there's even one weapon with 19-20/x3.
In the core rules, you can double the range, to a max of 15-20 for rapiers and such. You can do that with the keen weapon enhancement, or with the Improved Critical feat. You cannnot combine both.
Level 20 fighters also get to increase the multiplier by 1, for a maximum of x5.
That's all there is in the core rules. And that's not too much I think.
Of course, other sources can create feats like "Greater Critical" that increase the range again and stack with Improved Critical, or a feat that doubles the multiplier, but that doesn't mean the crit system is flawed, it means that those sources are created by munchkins for munchkins.
Note: The most effective weapon for a fighter is often one with a high threat range, rather than a high multiplier. So a falchion (18-20/x2) is better than a scythe (x4). Better more weak crits than few strong ones.
Minotaur Great Hammer 1d12 18-20 (x4) (It's a 2hander so 1 1/2 str)
Monker Grip to use a LARGE one, Impact increases crit range to 15-20, Wizard casts Mighty Wallop to increase its damage by 3 size CATEGORIES, (SPELL LASTS 24 HOURS AT HIGH LEVEL), Power Attack, Leap Attack TRIPLES strength mod on normal hit.
That doesn't even cost the character that much, 3 feats a friendly spell caster, and a + Weapon. Add other feats and it really does become a bit insane.
What book is the minotaur war hammer from? cause in the MM he weilds a greataxe. And honestly whoever created that weapon in the first place was a numbnuts because what did he expect to happen with an 18-20 x4 weapon.
And i was hopeing to work out with you a more moderate Crit System....that i can use to control the damage, without making all the monsters Elite......
Since fighters and other weapon damage dealers really need that damage to compete with spellcasters, I don't think you'll have much luck getting them to change the standard crit parameters.
But the 3.5 DMG has rules to make crits more tame (as well as rules to make them deadlier still). One involves reducing the crit multiplier for all weapons. That means that most weapons won't be able to score a crit at all. Only stuff like greataxes will be able to.
Do that, and do away with everything that increases crit capabilities, and you're there.
Minotaur Great Hammer 1d12 18-20 (x4) (It's a 2hander so 1 1/2 str)Monker Grip to use a LARGE one, Impact increases crit range to 15-20, Wizard casts Mighty Wallop to increase its damage by 3 size CATEGORIES, (SPELL LASTS 24 HOURS AT HIGH LEVEL), Power Attack, Leap Attack TRIPLES strength mod on normal hit.
That doesn't even cost the character that much, 3 feats a friendly spell caster, and a + Weapon. Add other feats and it really does become a bit insane.
That's nothing! Watch this:
Ninja Sword 2d20 2-20/x10. (The damage is listed for a small version)
The Ninja Sword allows you to use three times your strength mod on all attacks, even though it's a super-light weapon. You can use two of them without penalty, even if you don't have two-weapon fighting or other feats. You always have full BAB with this weapon, and also get as many attacks with your off-hand as you get with your main hand. And in addition, you get an extra attack per weapon.
Add to that the Red Mage spell final fantasise weapon, which permanently increases the weapon size by 20 categories without any negative effects or penalties for using weapons of different sizes.
And then, you use the World Render feat, which allows you to attack everyone on the same plane as you with every attack.
To be serious for a short while: The crit rules by themselves are okay, but if you add ridiculously overpowered weapons (forgot to mention those previously), spells, magic items, or feats, they will quickly run out of whack. Just like everything else (using the "rock star" spell, I can prove that bards are overpowered, just like rangers dual-wielding nuke launchers).
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Blasphemer! Onions on cheeseburgers are delicious, I don't care if you can dip a level of assasin and create the deadly onion poison for 25d12 con damage each round, and that when put with cheese, red meat, and bread the flavor of deadly onion poison is undetectable. It's still a taste worth dying for!
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Personally I love the crit deck.
Although at high levels even without the crit deck you can have some serious breakage.
Example: Fighter/Rogue/Assassin/Weaponmaster (yes 3.0 class)Then again this was an epic PC
Duel Wields Longswords, Oversize two weapon fighting, perfect two weapon fighting, Devastating critical, Improved Critical, and the spell Wraith Touch....
Crits on an 13+, DC34 save or die, all attacks are touch attacks. Personally I've banned Wraith strike from any more of my games
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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What book is the minotaur war hammer from? cause in the MM he weilds a greataxe. And honestly whoever created that weapon in the first place was a numbnuts because what did he expect to happen with an 18-20 x4 weapon.
Monster Manual 3, the same source that gave us the War Troll.
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Monster Manual 3, the same source that gave us the War Troll.
What book is the minotaur war hammer from? cause in the MM he weilds a greataxe. And honestly whoever created that weapon in the first place was a numbnuts because what did he expect to happen with an 18-20 x4 weapon.
And there is your answer lol. Seriously, that was just stupid design in the first place. The fact that they made that weapon for a monster and then what, did they not expect it to become abused by players? Simple fix, replace it with a great axe, don't tell the players and never let a player that comes to your game wanting to weild a minotaur war hammer the satisfaction. Make them wield a Maul like they are supposed to.
A minotaur is a large creature allready, is the 1d12 sized for large or medium creatures (if large wouldn't it go down to 1d10 for medium?)
Monster Manual 3, the same source that gave us the War Troll.
What book is the minotaur war hammer from? cause in the MM he weilds a greataxe. And honestly whoever created that weapon in the first place was a numbnuts because what did he expect to happen with an 18-20 x4 weapon.
Do you have a page reference? Haven't found anything minotaur in that book.
wizards book or not, it's laughable.
Blasphemer!
It's the Oni-ons that are blasphemous. Chase them to the ends of the world and eradicate them.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Do you have a page reference? Haven't found anything minotaur in that book.
Ah, I was suckered by the first guy who posted MM3 on some thread ... and then later corrected himself to the Monster Manual 4.
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Oh yeah, the greyhorn minotaur, the one that can move through stone. Yeah, I've used them, the thing is, I just didn't bother to tell the players that the hammer was anything other than a large maul. And if a player tried to come to me seeing that weapon saying, I want to wield one. I'd just slap them :)
Do you have a page reference? Haven't found anything minotaur in that book.Ah, I was suckered by the first guy who posted MM3 on some thread ... and then later corrected himself to the Monster Manual 4.
As I like to call it, the "Anvil on a stick"
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It's the Oni-ons that are blasphemous. Chase them to the ends of the world and eradicate them.Blasphemer!
Vile, slanderous, base, detestable villian. How dare you call our noble and delicious friend the onion blasphemous. He has done more for us flavor wise in his many years than you have. I call upon the gods to smite this heathen! He dares defile our precious friend the wonderous onion.
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As I like to call it, the "Anvil on a stick"Do you have a page reference? Haven't found anything minotaur in that book.Ah, I was suckered by the first guy who posted MM3 on some thread ... and then later corrected himself to the Monster Manual 4.
*slap*
Ok.....starting a thread to try and figure out how to work with a problem one DM is having......comparted to another DM that might not think that area is a problem is useless unless you talk about the problem.
Never mind....i'll figure it out..myself.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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DeBane,
The discussion has gotten a little off track, but still, none of the rest of us are seeing how, using 3.5 rules, it's possible to get that kind of critical hit damage.
There's no way to increase critical damage multipliers except at 20th Level. For damage multipliers x3 and x4, criticals threaten on only a roll of "20". With a keen weapon, that's a 19 - 20.
So, if you'd be so kind, could you walk us through how anybody could be doing the kind of critical-hit damage you're describing?
Here is a build from memory...for a 18 level character using the original Arcane Archer....the Pathfinder versions where not out at that time. his levels or 9th level fighter,1st level Sorcerer, and 9th level Arcane Archer.
Strength 26(+8), Dex 30(+10).....this is from two....+5 wishes to each stat and magic items that increase the stat also. I gold cost for items I increase by 50% and I also make everyone pay there own xp cost for making an item....even the cost for the wish scrolls in xp he paid.
he has the following feats: weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, improved critical. just those are +2/+4
Archer related feats: point blank shot, Far shot, Precise shot, Rapid shot…..
He has a feat he pick up from one of the complete books….adventure or fighter .. not sure….need to find it …but it pick his crit multiplier up by one. But for this math I am not going to use it.
Weapons: composite Longbow (strength max +8)….which you can get made to easy no magical enchantments needed, the original cost for the composite longbow was only 900gp…. Page 119
The bow also had the following enchantments: Icy Arrow (1d6 extra), and Holy (2d6 Extra) and distance (double range), and speed (extra attack at max BAB)
BAB = 17 + 2 +5(arcane archer magical arrows) +10 dex = a total of +34 to each attack.
Damage:
1d8 19-20/x2 : 1d8 +4 +5 +8 = 1d8 +17 damage range is 18 to 25 plus 1d6 a 2d6 ..make the range 21 to 36
18 x 1 attack = 18 plus 3-18 = 21 to 36
min damage on just one attack hitting no crits = 21 to 36
25 x 1 attack = 25 plus 3-18 = 28 to 43
max damage on just one attack hitting no crits = 21 to 36
(18 x 5 attacks)x2 crit = 180 plus 3-18 = 183 to 216
min damage on all five attacks hitting with crits = 183 to 216.
25 x 5 attacks)x2 crit = 250 plus 3-18 = 253 to 268
max damage on all five attacks hitting with crits = 253 to 268.
His damage range falls around 200 to 250 most of time which is easily close to one-third the hp for a great red wyrm.
The likelihood that someone would be able to crank out multiple crits in a single round is rather unlikely, let alone being able to repeat the feat on successive rounds.
So while he may manage to get 2 criticals in a single round, doing the same for 4 rounds is (I think) rather difficult to do without cheating.
And have you looked at what the spellcasters are doing in damage with their spells at that level? I could be possible that they're dealing roughly the same amount of damage as the multi-critting archer, only with much greater consistency.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Thank you. That was very helpful.
A couple of notes:
- The bow has at least +1 enchantment, plus icy, holy, distance, and speed, for a total of at least +8. Perfectly reasonable for a 19th Level character. (9 + 1 + 9 = 19, not 18.)
- He's standing stock still, within the range most CR 18 - 20 critters can reach to attack back. If he "shoots and scoots", he's only getting off one or two attacks.
This is a 19th-Level character, highly specialized for one type of combat, working to his strength. I don't see as how that kind of damage is out of line.
Simple countermeasures make life hard for him. (Concealment is a headache for any archer; if he's shooting at, say, a CR19 marilith, he has to contend with her projected image, and if he finds her, she can cast Unholy Aura at will; give her a chance to swig a potion of Protection from Arrows, and she's ignoring the cold and enjoying DR 30 against the rest of each attack roll.)
Again, I don't see as how criticals (he threatens x3 crits, which don't multiply the additional 3d6 damage, on a 19-20) are the issue here.
No offense meant:
Your group makeup should not necessarily invoke a complete and total change to the critical hit mechanic and damage.
If crits and such are a problem for you- then you should fix them for you.
Stop allowing unlimited splatbooks that let folks add odd modifiers and enhancements to their crits. *Paizo Can Not Fix Splatbooks*. Period. Ever. Not now, not tomorrow, not next week or next year. Non-OGL stuff is completely 100% untouchable and -must- be RULE 0 by -you- when you find a problem with it.
While usually folks go prattling off at the gills with some fallacy or other when someone mentions rule 0, it Is sometimes The answer the the problem.
-S
greater weapon specialization
Not with only 9 levels of fighter he hasn't. But that's beside the point.
He has a feat he pick up from one of the complete books….adventure or fighter .. not sure….need to find it …but it pick his crit multiplier up by one. But for this math I am not going to use it.
Can you tell me what that feat's name is? Because I cannot remember such a feat, and I think I would if I saw it. I have all the complete books.
The closest thing to this is that epic feat that gives you some extra damage.
But in the end, if you want a fix to crits, I have an easy one:
Don't allow non-core material that improves critical hits!
This limits the crit enhancers to the following:
Also allow only core weapons, and maybe extra weapons that aren't overpowered. That means a great falchion for 2d6 18-20/x2 is OK, as is a greathammer for 2d6 /x4 (both are exotic weapons that are just like a martial core weapon with a bit more damage), but no 1d8 18-20/x4.
If you use those limitations, the most powerful options for crits are:
Everything but Fighter 20:
Greathammer: 2d6 19-20/x4
Greatfalchion: 2d6 15-20/x2
Longbow: 1d8 19-20/x3
Fighter 20:
Multipliers are one higher than above, and crits are automatically confirmed.
If you go for the high multiplier (x4), that means that statistically, 1 in 10 attacks is a possible crit - and you usually have to confirm it. Let's say that works 50% of the time (can be your best attack, or your worst). Which means 5% of your attacks gets quad damage. That means an overall increase of 15% over normal. And assuming 5 attacks per round, you'll get a confirmed crit every 4th round.
If you go for the high threat range, 3 in 10 attacks are a possible crit, with confirmation that means 15% of your attacks get double damage. Again, 15% extra damage. And with 5 attacks per round, you get not quite one crit per round.
A fighter 20 will get a lot more out of this, with his higher multiplier and autoconfirm, but he's a fighter 20. He's supposed to kick ass.