Now both my grandfathers served in WW2 and Korea and one went to Vietnam, ask anyone from those generations and they will tell you that WW2 was done right because for the most part the military ran the show. Korea and Vietnam were a mess because now politicians run wars to their own agenda and the generals have to take orders based on statistics and and possible offensive political outcomes. Look where they have gotten us with this one and where it is going to leave us, rapid pullout or no rapid pullout. Heck we are still in Korea with a large military force, but for some reason a lot of people don't seam to remember this.
I'd argue you have it backwards. In World War Two the American Army came into being from nearly nothing. Not really being used to running a war they pretty much took their orders from their civilian commanders (the politicians).
Korea and Vietnam were different to a significant extent because, by this point, American Generals were powerful persons leading very powerful organizations.
Korea was at its worst when the Generals were in command, the CHinese Attack was ignored to a great extent simply because the Generals could not believe that China would dare attack them. Once China did get into the act the generals then wanted to go nuke happy on China and see if they could take China back from the commies - Truman had to step in and basically veto that and it was a terrible idea, China was basically unconquerable and America was not interested in a much ramped total war in a bid to conquer and hold the place.
Vietnam is more complex but certianly the generals were generally running the show and their attempts to use military power to win the war proved to be a complete failure and distracted policy makers from trying to go for some kind of political reform which would have been the only real hope for victory.
Really it's time that the states should follow the example of other countries such as The Netherlands, Canada, Belgium, Spain, South Africa, and the UK, and have some sort of gay marriage law, a religions belief shouldn't be law.
The real benefit is then the whole just is not news anymore and one can cease going on about it. The percentages of people involved are so small you'll basically never actually notice unless you happen to associate with gays and lesbians in which case it'll come up but in all probability you were already a supporter of the concept.
I'm sorry but you can't hang the failure of the American auto industry on unions. I've shopped around and there's a reason Toyota is now sitting top of the heap . . . and it's not because of American unions.
And the future has arrived. The 3 big auto companies are going bankrupt. They have no hope of competing in this global marketplace, against companies that don't have the union albatross hung around their necks. In order to keep the plants open in the past management and labor agreed to ridiculous pension plans that no one could hope to pay. Those pension plans are doomed.
[threadjack]Guy, my thoughts exactly. Unions are traditionally very strong here in Germany, especially at the car manufacturers. The troubles these industries had in the recent years were mostly due to bad management decisions and arrogance ("What? The japanese have air condition built into their cars as part of the basic configuration? Naah, WE don´t that - German cars are so good anyways, we can charge much higher prices without these extras.")
Daimler-Benz cars had serious quality problems in the last few years (I recently talked to a guy driving an eight-year old Mercedes, and he is very upset about his rusty car. I had a 13-year old Audi until recently, and it did not show a sign of rust due to the completely zinc-covered body.) AFAIK, US cars had serious quality problems as well, which has nothing to do with unions.Car manufacturing is a demanding business, and you can´t go like "Folks always bought our cars, so they will in the future.",which seems to be the mindset of the manufacturers. [/threadjack]
Stefan
My GF and I will be voting tomorrow early in the AM and we both are putting Obama down as our choice. Don't want another republican in the presidency especially since he 60+% of the time sides with bush and palin is terrifying. All of her speeches sound word for word like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingram and Glenn beck have her ear and that won't do. I expect to see palin back in 2012 no matter what the outcome in this election though.
So you just vote for the lesser of 2 evils.......again.......I'm not really sure who that is!The one who isn't the greater.
The Greater evil is pretty easy to point out, it uses the politics of fear, engaged in censorship, has beem shown to abuse power already and is probably a politicial crationist ;)
ofcause i am biased.
Um I can't tell which candidate you are refering too, I can pretty much apply those to both candidates if you give me a little time and I honestly have no idea what a crationist is, so I'm going to go look it up.
EDIT: Crationist isn't in the dictionary, is it a political term?
Served the dyslexic right for typing straight into the text box. Creationist, that e makes all the Difference ;)
I'm having a lousy time deciding who to vote for, I don't like either candidate and the third party guys aren't impressing me too much this year.Vote in simapthy with your wallet dude. Unless your super rich, you best bet for your own ecomonic prosperity is to vote democrat. Lots of research on the subject. Besides, you don't have to like either candidated, its there polacies that matter :)cough bias cough
trickle down economics
tax cuts are no good if you don't have a job
raganomic... Trickle down does not work. The rick get richer and while the poor also get richer, the gap between rich and poor grows. Those same people are provably better of when social just taxation is employed. Look out side your window, at the economics climate, and you will see what unregulated greed has done to us all.
And sure, i will admit to Bias, i live in a G8 country, i have free healthcare, i'll have a state pension, and when unemployed i am able to claim a reasonable amount as benifits. And to top that all off, until the global economic crisis, jobs where pretty plentiful.
If Obama cuts my taxes, my house keeper loses a job, as do my lawn mowers, my friends go to the beauty salon less often, everyone gets less money. The rich will try to stay rich, and that hurts other people.I'm having a lousy time deciding who to vote for, I don't like either candidate and the third party guys aren't impressing me too much this year.Vote in simapthy with your wallet dude. Unless your super rich, you best bet for your own ecomonic prosperity is to vote democrat. Lots of research on the subject. Besides, you don't have to like either candidated, its there polacies that matter :)cough bias cough
trickle down economics
tax cuts are no good if you don't have a jobHeh every vote is biased. People vote for the person they feel best represents what they want done in the country. For a nation of people that are feeling the pinch economically why not vote for a person that'll help ya there?
Trickle down economics doesn't work in the day of globalization. Drive thru sir.
Sorry, but how does your tax being cut, which would give you more money, make you less likely to take advantage of service industies.
well I got my voting done.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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As a Canadian, I cannot vote in your elections, but would like to remind you of how much your choices affect the rest of the world. Our democracy's depend, in part, on your valuing yours and we look to your example in this regard.
No matter how much we grumble or sneer at America sometimes, I think many of us do respect the ideals that the US has proclaimed as their own and sneer most loudly when you cease to cherish them.
Get out there and vote.
Leonard Cohen's song Democracy:
It's coming to America first,
the cradle of the best and of the worst.
It's here they got the range
and the machinery for change
and it's here they got the spiritual thirst.
It's here the family's broken
and it's here the lonely say
that the heart has got to open
in a fundamental way:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
6:30 this morning went out early and voted.
Now Im off to work. :)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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At work after a 45 miute wait (and reading this thread).
Voted for McCain/Palin for a number of reasons. Mostly because the other guy is far far far worse.
Voted against having the Ohio Constitution changed to allow Casinos. Personal Moral issue.
Voted to keep the Payday loans in business in Ohio (Not the job of the government to protect people from bad decisions).
Voted to keep some legislators, and dump some others.
Can tell it is going to be a busy day. Last three elections I've been voter #1 or 2. This morning I was 60 (arrived at 7:01).
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At work after a 45 miute wait (and reading this thread).
Voted for McCain/Palin for a number of reasons. Mostly because the other guy is far far far worse.
Voted against having the Ohio Constitution changed to allow Casinos. Personal Moral issue.
From what I've seen in Oklahoma, I kinda lean your way...
I used to be "meh" on the whole thing.|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I voted and was pleasantly surprized that there were not long lines at my poling place as the local media had reported in the Chicago area. While I voted for Obama (not that it really matters in IL with a strong win predicted), I was most entertained by a local Water Reclaimation board vote. This is one of the useless little municipal votes that I normally don't even waste my time on, since I know nothing about it or the candidates. However, this year I noticed that one of the candidate's last name was Clearwater, and felt compelled to vote for them.
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But unions are a big reason Michigan is in such sorry shape now. They benefit the workers early on, and the guys at the top rake in a bundle. But they do so by restricting other potential workers, depriving them of employment in order to lock in higher wages for the first group to get in.
And whose to blame for over-saturating the market with SUVs and big trucks? The unions?
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But unions are a big reason Michigan is in such sorry shape now. They benefit the workers early on, and the guys at the top rake in a bundle. But they do so by restricting other potential workers, depriving them of employment in order to lock in higher wages for the first group to get in.And whose to blame for over-saturating the market with SUVs and big trucks? The unions?
[sillyness]Of course. Unions are to blame for everything al Qaida orthe Russians aren't. If you believe otherwise, you're unamerican.[/sillyness]
As a Britain, I can't vote, and won't give advice on who to vote for, so good luck with the voting, Americans. Please vote, even if it's a write-in. You know Darth Vader would be better than either of the main candidates.
We just had 8 years of Dick "Darth" Cheney, so I think I will take a pass on that one.
But unions are a big reason Michigan is in such sorry shape now. They benefit the workers early on, and the guys at the top rake in a bundle. But they do so by restricting other potential workers, depriving them of employment in order to lock in higher wages for the first group to get in.And whose to blame for over-saturating the market with SUVs and big trucks? The unions?
There's plenty of blame to spread around amongst the Detroit 3. Unions and management alike. I just hope they get their heads out of the sand for real this time. Our local economy, and my job, depend on it.
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I was in line this morning at 5:45, and the polls opened at 6:00. I voted around 6:35, and when I left the line was twice as long as when I joined it. One poll worker I talked to said people started lining up at 5am!
Regarding not being happy with the candidates, my own perspective is you vote in the best raw material you can find and spend the next four years keeping an eye on him (or her!) to make sure the job gets done. Politics only starts with voting; otherwise it's about equivalent to writing your contractor a giant check and not bothering to check up on the project until it's supposed to be delivered.
Regarding trickle-down economics, I personally think it's part joke and part scam. If consumer spending accounts for two-thirds of the economy, then explain to me again how concentrating tax breaks at the top 5% of "consumers" generates economic growth? They've already got their multiple homes and fancy cars and luxury yachts, so you're basically counting on them deciding they need Even More Stuff to keep the economy going - while many others are struggling to keep up with basic necessities like food, clothes, medicine, and bills.
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I'm having a lousy time deciding who to vote for, I don't like either candidate and the third party guys aren't impressing me too much this year.Vote in simapthy with your wallet dude. Unless your super rich, you best bet for your own ecomonic prosperity is to vote democrat. Lots of research on the subject. Besides, you don't have to like either candidated, its there polacies that matter :)cough bias cough
trickle down economics
tax cuts are no good if you don't have a jobraganomic... Trickle down does not work. The rick get richer and while the poor also get richer, the gap between rich and poor grows. Those same people are provably better of when social just taxation is employed. Look out side your window, at the economics climate, and you will see what unregulated greed has done to us all.
And sure, i will admit to Bias, i live in a G8 country, i have free healthcare, i'll have a state pension, and when unemployed i am able to claim a reasonable amount as benifits. And to top that all off, until the global economic crisis, jobs where pretty plentiful.
What country do you live in? I may need to jump-ship from here and have been trying to edu-ma-cate myself.
I did it this morning before work. Took about half an hour, including the drive there and back. They didn't give me a sticker though. I am bummed.
As for my choices, I can divulge only that I wrote in a certain Mr. Bill T. Catt... for County Register of Deeds.
Take that, The Man!
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I pushed buttons and got a sticker! Yay!I asked for a sticker and they told me that they "don't do that anymore." *shakes head* This is clear evidence that America is on the wrong track and change (at least election reform) is needed.
Election reform or Electoral College reform? I have so enough issues with both major candidates. My over all thoughts is whom ever wins will serve only one term.
In the end no average Joe wins on this one. Not even Joe the Plumber.
I'm puttin' on my big girl boots and heading out. It's my first presidential election. I can hear people at my polling place yelling about once every 5-10 minutes. Hope this doesn't take too long, I've got s*~& to do.
And I am so so glad I don't have TV anymore, so else I would be so frustrated with this whole buisness.
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I just got back.
It took all of 2 minutes, there was no line for my district when I got there.
I will be much happier when the Modern Whigs start running candidates.
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I just got back.
It took all of 2 minutes, there was no line for my district when I got there.
I will be much happier when the Modern Whigs start running candidates.
Hrm, I actually like their stances on most of the issues, especially giving the power back to the states in resolving some of them.
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But unions are a big reason Michigan is in such sorry shape now. They benefit the workers early on, and the guys at the top rake in a bundle. But they do so by restricting other potential workers, depriving them of employment in order to lock in higher wages for the first group to get in.And whose to blame for over-saturating the market with SUVs and big trucks? The unions?
Nope the people who constantly buy SUV's and trucks. Did you know that since the economic crash and subsequent gas price reduction the sale of SUV's and trucks has gone up again? That's the sale, and now manufacturers are following suite. Can we say that people learned absolutely nothing? and I argue you can't blame the manufacturer for following demand, you can only blame the people creating said demand.
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I don't believe in trickle down economics of the right. But what I also don't believe in are the trickle up economics of the left. I believe if your going to promote prosperity you have to do it across all levels of the economy. Which is why I support the fair tax
I'm pro Union so I won't be voting republican. I fully support Obama and feel that some of the reasons people around my town/state won't vote for him are just cover-ups for hate and racism. I've even had older relatives become very angry with me because "I'm voting for a "N". I can't believe that hate and bigotry like that still exist and it makes me ashamed of my own family. Crap, some won't even admit that they're Irish, they're even bigoted against their own heritageMy mother-in-law is voting Mac because Obama sounds like Osama and he has purple lips. I kid you not. "I'm entitled to my opinions no matter how much of a scum them make me!"
I really like that we get the right to vote but how about we earn it. Maybe some mild testing to weed out the morons and give voting licenses to the others.
I also would love to see a licensing system for people to have kids. Terminal stupidity shouldn't be something that allows kids to suffer or put one person in the highest office over another.
The electoral college is the 'weed out the morons' the founding fathers wanted right? *grin* I agree with the other licensing though.
I will vote tonight after dinner. The polls in the southern half of the state will be closed by then, meaning me and the small population I am a part of will not really affect the outcome. I wish the state could have one time zone. Or that the population hub down south is so divided they will need just that one vote made just by me!
I'm sorry but you can't hang the failure of the American auto industry on unions. I've shopped around and there's a reason Toyota is now sitting top of the heap . . . and it's not because of American unions.
And the future has arrived. The 3 big auto companies are going bankrupt. They have no hope of competing in this global marketplace, against companies that don't have the union albatross hung around their necks. In order to keep the plants open in the past management and labor agreed to ridiculous pension plans that no one could hope to pay. Those pension plans are doomed.
[threadjack]Guy, my thoughts exactly. Unions are traditionally very strong here in Germany, especially at the car manufacturers. The troubles these industries had in the recent years were mostly due to bad management decisions and arrogance ("What? The japanese have air condition built into their cars as part of the basic configuration? Naah, WE don´t that - German cars are so good anyways, we can charge much higher prices without these extras.")
Daimler-Benz cars had serious quality problems in the last few years (I recently talked to a guy driving an eight-year old Mercedes, and he is very upset about his rusty car. I had a 13-year old Audi until recently, and it did not show a sign of rust due to the completely zinc-covered body.) AFAIK, US cars had serious quality problems as well, which has nothing to do with unions.Car manufacturing is a demanding business, and you can´t go like "Folks always bought our cars, so they will in the future.",which seems to be the mindset of the manufacturers. [/threadjack]
Stefan
Of course it is entirely possible that corners might have to be cut and quality suffer in order for manufacturers to have enough excess revenue to cover the costs of those things required by labor contracts.
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I'm pro Union so I won't be voting republican. I fully support Obama and feel that some of the reasons people around my town/state won't vote for him are just cover-ups for hate and racism. I've even had older relatives become very angry with me because "I'm voting for a "N". I can't believe that hate and bigotry like that still exist and it makes me ashamed of my own family. Crap, some won't even admit that they're Irish, they're even bigoted against their own heritageMy mother-in-law is voting Mac because Obama sounds like Osama and he has purple lips. I kid you not. "I'm entitled to my opinions no matter how much of a scum them make me!"
I really like that we get the right to vote but how about we earn it. Maybe some mild testing to weed out the morons and give voting licenses to the others.
I also would love to see a licensing system for people to have kids. Terminal stupidity shouldn't be something that allows kids to suffer or put one person in the highest office over another.The electoral college is the 'weed out the morons' the founding fathers wanted right? *grin* I agree with the other licensing though.
"Sometimes I really think people ought to have to pass a *proper* exam before they're allowed to be parents. Not just the practical, I mean."
Wise words. ;-)
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Hrm, I actually like their stances on most of the issues, especially giving the power back to the states in resolving some of them.
Yes, I was shocked too when I clicked to their website on a "what the hell" impulse.
Even better, while checking their forums I discovered two other Harry Turtledove fans, one of them an admitted Hamiltonian like me!
What country do you live in? I may need to jump-ship from here and have been trying to edu-ma-cate myself.I'm having a lousy time deciding who to vote for, I don't like either candidate and the third party guys aren't impressing me too much this year.Vote in simapthy with your wallet dude. Unless your super rich, you best bet for your own ecomonic prosperity is to vote democrat. Lots of research on the subject. Besides, you don't have to like either candidated, its there polacies that matter :)cough bias cough
trickle down economics
tax cuts are no good if you don't have a jobraganomic... Trickle down does not work. The rick get richer and while the poor also get richer, the gap between rich and poor grows. Those same people are provably better of when social just taxation is employed. Look out side your window, at the economics climate, and you will see what unregulated greed has done to us all.
And sure, i will admit to Bias, i live in a G8 country, i have free healthcare, i'll have a state pension, and when unemployed i am able to claim a reasonable amount as benifits. And to top that all off, until the global economic crisis, jobs where pretty plentiful.
I live in blighty.
Oh trust me, there is plenty wrong with the UK, such as the special relationship :P but their are few countries i would rather live in.
I'm glad this thing will be over with soon. Presidential elections have become such media frenzies that it's almost impossible to get a straight answer out of anyone. It's like a day long Super Bowl with the longest, most annoying pre-game show ever.
Except that when this game is finally over, when all the lawyers have sued and talking heads have whined, cajoled, berated and generally pissed all over us, we're all still going to be f&!$ed either way.
The only thing that will change politics in the U.S. forever is a constitutional amendment that forces balanced budgets and a government without debts.
Imagine that. Something neither Dems nor Reps could f**k with. We'd have a lean government and our economy would roar like a finely tuned race car.
Sigh....
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Served the dyslexic right for typing straight into the text box. Creationist, that e makes all the Difference ;)So you just vote for the lesser of 2 evils.......again.......I'm not really sure who that is!The one who isn't the greater.
The Greater evil is pretty easy to point out, it uses the politics of fear, engaged in censorship, has beem shown to abuse power already and is probably a politicial crationist ;)
ofcause i am biased.
Um I can't tell which candidate you are refering too, I can pretty much apply those to both candidates if you give me a little time and I honestly have no idea what a crationist is, so I'm going to go look it up.
EDIT: Crationist isn't in the dictionary, is it a political term?
Just out of curiosity, are you saying McCain is probably a political creationist, or are you talking about Palin? And seriously what abuse of power are we dealing with? And if you live in the UK you can't even vote here so Nyah Nyah nah Nyah nah
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I pushed buttons and got a sticker! Yay!
I also got a sticker! Yay! And ... it was good for a free Starbucks coffee <gasp>.
And yes, I *did* go get my coffee.
When the Democratic noms came out, originally I was against Hillary Clinton for a whole lot of reasons, hoping that the Dem pick would be Obama. "Anything has to be better than another Clinton," I thought to myself.
Didn't realize how wrong I was.
Amusingly, at the polls, I voted at 0930am and was voter #100. The guy there said it was the largest turnout they ever had.
By 0930. I wonder what it will be by close?
Of course it is entirely possible that corners might have to be cut and quality suffer in order for manufacturers to have enough excess revenue to cover the costs of those things required by labor contracts.
Or to have enough excess revenue to satisfy shareholders, who demand outrageous margins to satisfy their greed, and laying off a few thousand workers in the process, to say nothing of the money the executive board members get...
I´m all for moderate labor contracts if the times are tough, but if the shareholder value and the margin soars, the workers should get their share. This was all too often not the case in the last 10 years or so.Stefan
Took a long lunch and got my vote in. 45 minutes. #358 out of 1982 registered in my district.
I'm a regular voter and I saw a lot of new faces, young and old. At least people are getting off of their butts and voting.
Change? I really don't expect much. It's sad that so many new voters actually believe the campaign promises/bs. At least we can hope that enough learn the realities of politics so that they'll get off their butts again to shape some real change later.
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My ballot was in last week (like Russ Taylor, I'm also from OR, land of 100% mail in/drop off balloting, ha ha)
Prez - Obama
McCain just rubbed me wrong. His people's little outburst toward rpg gamers & McCain's words about only religious people should be president come to mind come to most, but there were numerous thing with him. That I really think this country needs swift kick the crotch.
If Obama wins, hopefully he'll turn things around & get us back on track or at least back to where we were worrying all the time about everyday common ideas & things. If McCain wins, well hopefully it won't be a 3rd Bush term, god knows we've had enough of his BS the last 8 years. That I never did warm up to the "Barracuda".
Couple local things, voted no on both a library bill & a school bond/measure. I have 2 small kids but this town(Ontario), just goes wild when they get money in their pocket + I think both bills would have just added to my already high property taxes on my house (I know for sure the library bill was .55 per 1000 (my house is 100,000)). Funny, the town says don't have any money, but there are 3 new police vehicles running around town now--2 Dodge Chargers & a Ford Excursion, hmmmmm.
Here hoping that whoever wins can steer this country back to way it should be going!!
That & thank god, after today no more political phone calls, nor political flyer crap filling up the trash can, or at least until the next elections come around, :).
Callous Jack has my vote for the US presidency as well
Go Jack!
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My wife and I voted at about 10:00 and there was no line. I seriously thought about writing in Cthulhu.
"Why settle for the lesser of two evils when you can choose the ultimate evil?"
he he, I almost put Mickey Mouse on my ballot, but figured at least I liked one of the canidates this time around (Franken'Kerry & Tweedle'W the last time around, ughhh)