OK, after all the debate and such I have finally decided to just put MY opinion of what a paladin should be on paper. I know this has absolutely no chance of being accepted but I have seen such a strong debate about what should and should not happen to the paladin that I just had to finally put my feelings down in levels!
This is what I feel a paladin should be and HOW he should function…..
Of course he should have full BAB, and good fort/will saves.
HD = D10
Also note that I have DUMPED spells all together, no spells.
He is still restricted to Lawful good and his code of conduct.
Level 1: Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Protection from Evil, Oaths, Bonus feat (Weapon Focus or Combat Expertise)
At level one the paladin is being introduced into his new role. He must uphold the oaths he swore in service to his cause. He can see the evil that he is facing and that evil can see the GOOD that they are facing. Though he does not have any special ability to strike this evil yet, he has minor protection from it.
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning its strength as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
Protection from Evil is constant as the spell.
Oaths:
Each morning the paladin may swear an oath. It takes 10 minutes of uninterrupted prayer to initiate an oath, and the effects last for one day. Oaths take many different forms. Starting at 1st level the paladin may choose one oath per day from among the oaths listed below. At 10th level she gains a second oath, and at 20th level she may swear three oaths per day. Note that each oath comes with a restriction. Not abiding by the restriction normally causes the paladin to lose the benefit of the oath for the remainder of the day, but other penalties are possible, as noted in each oath's description.
All bonuses conferred by an oath are heroic and stack with bonuses of any other type. Bonuses to hit are limited to the paladin's charisma modifier or one plus half the paladin's level, whichever is higher. If multiple instances of a qualifying condition allow a bonus to apply once for each instance, such as +3 damage for each evil outsider, that bonus may be applied a number of times up to the maximum bonus to hit. For example, a 1st level paladin with a +3 charisma modifier who has sworn to scourge the heretic may gain at most +3 to hit, +6 damage, and +15 feet to movement.
Scourge the Heretic: The paladin vows to destroy those who use magic for evil. For each evil spell caster (cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard) participating in the sequence of initiative she gains +1 to hit, +2 damage, and +5 feet to movement. Moreover, her weapon gains dispelling attack (per the rogue ability, at paladin level plus three). Restriction: Shortest Path to the Enemy (see below).
Banish Evil: The paladin vows to destroy any demon or devil that has strayed into this world. For each evil outsider participating in the sequence of initiative she gains +1 to hit, +3 to damage, and her attacks are good-aligned for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. Restriction: Shortest Path to the Enemy (see below).
Chastise the Lawless: The paladin vows to destroy any demon or slaad that has strayed into this world. For each chaotic evil or chaotic neutral outsider participating in the sequence of initiative she gains +1 to hit, +3 to damage, and her attacks are lawful-aligned for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. Restriction: Shortest Path to the Enemy (see below).
Release the Damned: The paladin vows to destroy the undead. For each undead participating in the sequence of initiative she gains +1 to hit, +2 damage, and increases her channel energy DC by +1. Restriction: Shortest Path to the Enemy (see below).
Slay the Wicked: The paladin vows to end the life of a specific individual creature. The paladin does not need to know the individual's name, but must be able to recognize or otherwise know the target creature on sight. While the target creature is visible to the paladin and the paladin is either fighting that creature or fighting to get to that creature, the paladin gains +1 to hit and damage, plus an additional +1 to hit and damage for every four paladin levels above the first. Moreover, the critical threat range of any weapon used by the paladin, as well as the critical threat confirmation roll, is increased by the paladin's Charisma modifier. Restriction: Shortest Path to the Enemy (see below).
Fight to the End: The paladin vows not to retreat. She gains +1 to hit and damage, plus an additional +1 to hit and damage for every four paladin levels above the first (1st, 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th). Restriction: The paladin may not use the withdraw action or retreat from combat, or she loses the benefit of her oath for the day.
Avenge the Fallen: The paladin vows to avenge her fallen comrades. As her allies fall she grows stronger and ignores damage that would usually stop her in her tracks. When an ally falls in battle (any ally participating in the sequence of initiative that has fallen to zero hit points or less) the paladin gains +2 to hit, +2 damage, and DR 2/- until the end of the encounter. For each additional ally that falls, she adds +1 to hit, +1 damage, and DR 1/-. Moreover, she may return the damage that felled her comrade point for point. For example, if the comrade fell to an attack dealing 11 hp damage, the paladin adds 11 damage to her first hit against that enemy. Restriction: The paladin may not use the withdraw action or retreat from combat after an ally has fallen, or she loses the benefit of all oaths for the day.
Defend You With My Life: The paladin vows to defend a specific individual to the death. The designated ward must have a lower base attack bonus than the paladin. The paladin gains an immediate attack of opportunity in response to any attack against the designated ward from an enemy within range of the paladin. If a 5-foot step would put the paladin in range, a 5-foot step is also allowed. The paladin's counter-attack is resolved before the enemy's attack, and it does not count against the paladin's attack of opportunity for that round. The paladin may also choose to negate the enemy attack by incurring one half the damage to herself, if she wins an opposed Charisma check. She may apply her shield bonus (including magical enhancement) to the check and reduce the damage by 10% per +1 shield bonus. Restriction: If the designated ward falls to zero hit points or less, the paladin is stunned for one round and loses the benefit of all oaths for the day. If the designated ward is killed, the paladin must additionally seek atonement.
Scourge the Heretic, Banish Evil, Chastise the Lawless, Release the Damned, and Slay the Wicked all have the following restriction:
Shortest Path to the Enemy: When choosing a path to the enemy, the paladin takes -1 to the bonus conferred by the oath for every attack of opportunity avoided on the chosen path that would have been incurred on the shortest path. Each -1 reduces the bonus to hit by one and each other bonus by the corresponding amount. For example, -1 to Scourge the Heretic reduces the bonus by -1 to hit, -2 damage, and -5 feet to movement. The bonus reduction lasts until the end of the encounter.
Similarly, the paladin must attempt anything with a reasonable DC (anything the paladin could accomplish by taking 10) that would shorten the distance of the path in the same or less time, in spite of any risk entailed, or the bonus conferred by the oath is reduced by one for the duration of the encounter.
If more than one enemy qualifies, the paladin may choose the shortest path to any one of them.
The Fight to the End oath overlaps with the always-on mechanic that many have asked for, so that oaths can function in that capacity if the player chooses. The shortest path restriction
captures an aspect of the paladin concept that none of her other abilities really captures: The paladin is quixotic. The mechanic encourages an anti-stealth, direct, sometimes foolhardy approach to combat that feels righteous, in character for the paladin.
Level 2: Aura of Courage, Lay on Hands.
The paladin has seen the evil that he will have to face, he no longer has any fear of it and he knows what he must do. He also has the power to heal his wounds and the wounds of the innocent.
Lay On Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma bonus. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin target’s herself, in which case it is a swift action. As a paladin gains levels, she can use this ability to create other effects. The DC for any of these abilities is based off the paladin’s Charisma. Using any other ability is a standard action, regardless of the target.
Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.
Level 3: Smite Evil, Divine Grace.
Now that he can see the evil of the world and is no longer afraid of it, he can now strike out against it. His body is also strengthened by his convictions so that he can withstand the different attacks that the forces of evil will use against him.
Smite Evil: Every attack a paladin makes is a strike to rid the world of evil. A paladin must know that a subject is evil before using this power (by the use of his detect evil ability). Once he has confirmed that an enemy is in fact evil he may add his charisma mod to his roll to hit and his paladin level to his damage role. This damage is not multiplied on a critical. The damage does bypass any damage reduction.
Level 4: Holy Channeling, Divine Health.
The paladin’s aura has grown. He can now channel his holy energy to heal the innocent and destroy the wicked. Likewise he can no longer be lain low by the sickness that surrounds him.
VERSION A:
This version does similar curing/damaging to channel energy, or an alternate non-damaging effect. You do only one thing at a time, choosing which you will use.
Holy Channeling (Su): At 4th level, a paladin has the power to channel divine energies directly from the upper planes through his holy symbol. This power bolsters creatures of good alignment and harms those of evil alignment in a 30-foot burst. A paladin may use holy channeling a number of times per day equal to 3+ her Charisma modifier. Save DCs are equal to 10 + 1/2 paladin level + Charisma modifier.
The paladin may choose to heal those of good alignment and harm those who are evil. Good creatures in the burst are healed of 1d6 points of damage per 2 paladin levels. Neutral creatures are neither healed nor harmed, but evil creatures suffer 1d6 points of damage per 2 paladin levels to evil creatures, with a Will save allowed to halve damage. Evil outsiders, fiendish creatures, and any creature with the [evil] subtype or an aura of evil suffer double damage.
A paladin can instead choose to release a burst of spiritual power that bolsters good creatures and terrifies those of evil alignment. Good creatures gain a +1 morale bonus to weapon attack and damage rolls and to saves against fear and charm that lasts for a number of rounds equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus. If they are currently under a charm or fear effect, they are entitled to an immediate saving throw to break the effect. The morale bonus increases by +1 and the healing by 1d6 for every 4 paladin levels beyond 4th (e.g., +5 and 5d6 at 20th level).
Evil creatures within the burst are shaken for a number of rounds equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier; evil outsiders, fiendish creatures, and creatures with the evil subtype or an aura of evil are frightened instead. Evil creatures succeeding on a Will save are shaken for 1 round.
Finally, a paladin may use holy channeling to command the allegiance of a single good outsider, celestial creature, or creature with the good subtype or an aura of good within 30 feet. This effect works as charm monster (Will save negates) with a duration of 1 day. While a paladin may use this ability on more than one creature, the total number of hit dice of creatures commanded may not exceed his paladin level.
VERSION B:
This version is more about multitasking, having multiple effects come into play at once. You give ONE use of the ability and it booms out and does all the stuff on the list.
Holy Channeling (Su): At 4th level, a paladin has the power to channel divine energies directly from the upper planes through his holy symbol. This power bolsters creatures of good alignment and harms those of evil alignment in a 30-foot burst. A paladin may use holy channeling a number of times per day equal to 3+ her Charisma modifier.
Evil creatures within the holy channeling suffer 1d6 points of damage and are shaken for a number of rounds equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier. A Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 paladin level + Charisma modifier) negates the shaken effect but not the damage. The fear caused by holy channeling affects undead as well as living creatures. This is a good, mind-affecting effect.
Evil outsiders, fiendish creatures, and creatures with the evil subtype or an aura of evil suffer double damage and are frightened on a failed Will save.
Good-aligned creatures receive 1d6 points of healing and a +1 morale bonus to weapon attack and damage rolls and to saves against fear and charm. If they are currently under a charm or fear effect, they are entitled to an immediate saving throw to break the effect. The morale bonus increases by +1 and the healing by 1d6 for every 4 paladin levels beyond 4th (e.g., +5 and 5d6 at 20th level).
Good outsiders, celestial creatures, and any creature with the good subtype or an aura of good gain double the normal amount of healing, and if the paladin wishes he may attempt to command the allegiance of one or more such creatures. This effect lasts for 1 day and is equivalent to a charm monster spell. A Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 paladin level + Charisma modifier) negates the command, and the paladin may only affect one or more creatures whose total hit dice do not exceed his class level.
Level 5: Divine Bond, Second Bonus feat (extra channeling, weapon specializaton).
Once reaching this level the paladin is being looked on favorably by the gods, he is granted a boon in the form of a mount or an enhancement to his weapon and shield.
Another change that I love was the addition of being able to divide your weapon bond to bonuses to your shield as well, I think this is an amazing addition. Of course the same rules would apply for the +1 and the additional shield abilities would be drawn from; Bashing, Arrow deflection, Animated (sorry Jason N. I love it! Hehe), blinding. “element” resistance, Fortification (light, moderate or Heavy), Ghost touch, and Reflecting.
I would also add Ghost touch to the list of weapons and Bane with the restriction of undead or evil outsiders.
Divine Bond (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms.
The first bond allows her to enhance her weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a celestial spirit for 1 minute per paladin level. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed light as a torch. At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, merciful, and speed. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s cost. These bonuses do not stack with any properties the weapon already has. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. The bonus and properties granted by the spirit are determined when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until the spirit is called again. The celestial spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the paladin, but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the paladin. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels beyond 5th, to a total of four times per day at 17th level.
If a weapon bearing a celestial spirit is destroyed, the paladin loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until she gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
The second bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the paladin’s level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount to her side. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every 4 levels thereafter, for a total of four times per day at 17th level.
At 11th level, a paladin’s mount gains the celestial template. At 15th level, a paladin’s mount gains spell resistance equal to the paladin’s level +11.
Should the paladin’s mount die, the paladin may not summon another mount for 30 days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Level 6: Remove Disease. Endure Elements.
The paladin is now granted the power to remove the afflictions that he is immune to, and restore those affected to their natural state.
Remove Disease: A simple fix would be to allow a paladins remove disease to actually restore all ability damage lost to the disease. A cleric would take two spells (remove disease and lesser restoration) to do that. Therefor it doesn't feel like a dead level.
Endure Elements as the spell, constant.
Level 7: Magic Circle against Evil.
The paladin’s aura has grown, his allies now benefit from his protection from evil.
Constant Magic Circle against Evil, as the spell.
Level 8: Aura of Resolve.
The paladin’s mental fortitude is now unshakeable, he can not be strayed from his course.
Level 9: Remove Curse.
This works in the same way as Remove Disease above, just with curses.
Level 10: Conviction of purpose (Mettle), Third bonus feat (Improve turning or Greater Weapon Focus).
Determination is an understatement for the paladin, he can shrug off the wounds that would slay men with doubt in their hearts.
Mettle (Ex): You can resist magical attacks with greater effectiveness than other warriors. By drawing on your boundless energy and dedication to your cause, you can shrug off effects that would hinder even the toughest warrior. If you succeed on a Fortitude or Will save against an attack that would normally produce a lesser effect on a successful save (such as a spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), you instead negate the effect. You do not gain the benefit of mettle when you are unconscious or sleeping.
Level 11: Divine sacrifice.
The paladin may channel the wounds others would take into himself.
If the paladin takes no action, as a full round action he can produce the effects of a Shield other spell. He can do this with any willing creature he has line of effect too. While he is doing this he may take no action. He may break the spell at any time.
Level 12: Neutralize Poison.
This works in the same way as Remove Disease above, just with poisons.
Level 13: Aura of Justice.
The allies of the paladin are emboldened with his sense of righteousness.
The paladin is under the effects of a constant bless spell centered on himself.
Level 14: Aura of Faith.
His faith is so pure that the power of his holy might flows through his body into his weapon and resonates through out the area.
I would suggest that this read “a paladin’s weapons are considered to have the “Holy” property” and any attacks made against an enemy within 10 feat of her is treated as good aligned for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction.
This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.
Level 15: Break Enchantment, fourth bonus feat (Selective Channeling or Greater weapon specialization).
Level 16: Consecration.
No taint my linger in the presence of a paladin.
With one hour of uninterupted prayer the paladin can produce the effects of a consecrate spell, he does not need any components for this ability.
Level 17: Aura of Righteousness.
It should be noted that the damage reduction should read DR 5/good.
[b]Level 18: Heal
Level 19: Righteous strike.
No evil is safe from the persistence of the paladin’s attack.
All attack by the paladin can cause critical hits to evil creatures that were not previously vulnerable to criticals. And all critical threats against evil creatures are automatically confirmed. His smite damage can now be doubled by a critical as well.
Level 20: Holy Champion.
The paladin is the living embodiment of all that is good.
It should also be noted that the damage reduction should read, DR increases to 10/-.
Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). In addition, whenever she channels positive energy or uses lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum possible amount.
Please remember that this is MY version of the paladin. I have taken ides from what I have read here and I hope that I quoted them to make sure the credit is theirs. I know many will say this is over powered or over the top. But this is what I think of when I think paladin and what I feel he should be capable of.
I would appreciate anyone’s thoughts, but remember that I also understand this will not be accepted by most.
As a Paladin fan I must say I like it.
The Oaths are a lot of fun, and making Smite continuous, but only on a confirmed Detect is a good idea.
I would personally be inclined to eliminate the first level bonus feat, and shift Protection from Evil up a couple of levels.
I've always felt the Paladin was better off in 3e as a prestige class, and I'm very tempted to offer this {slightly telescoped) to my players as such.
Keep up the good work!
As a Paladin fan I must say I like it.
The Oaths are a lot of fun, and making Smite continuous, but only on a confirmed Detect is a good idea.I would personally be inclined to eliminate the first level bonus feat, and shift Protection from Evil up a couple of levels.
I've always felt the Paladin was better off in 3e as a prestige class, and I'm very tempted to offer this {slightly telescoped) to my players as such.
Keep up the good work!
Wow thanx, I did not think anyone would reply with anything positive :)
Hmmm...interesting write up, Vult. BTW, in the past few days, I've added three new ideas for Oaths (Subjugate the Sinner, Inspire the Masses, and Blood of the Martyr) to the Paladin Upgrade thread.
I read them, I like all the Oaths very much. There is really no limit to how good or how many of those there could be. Thanx for taking the time to read and comment :)
Vult, thanks for the writeup! Thinking about concrete ideas like these helps me clarify my own ideas about the paladin.
OK, after all the debate and such I have finally decided to just put MY opinion of what a paladin should be on paper. I know this has absolutely no chance of being accepted but I have seen such a strong debate about what should and should not happen to the paladin that I just had to finally put my feelings down in levels!
Now you're starting to sound like lastknightleft :-) I think it's more important that we're having fun. Someone may use your ideas even if they don't make it into the next version of Pathfinder, and ideas that get used or even get people thinking may eventually find their way into the game, by virtue of being fun.
I've been eager to respond to this, so I'll get started:
Of course he should have full BAB,
Of course.
and good fort/will saves.
When I stopped to think about this, I realized that I actually value good will save more than good fort save. Good will save emphasizes the strength of the paladin's convictions, which is more distinctly paladin-like than the ability to withstand harmful physical effects, although both feel right for the paladin.
HD = D10
Of course.
Also note that I have DUMPED spells all together, no spells.
That's bold. This single idea took me the longest to think about, since I had to look through the spells to see what the paladin would lose. In some ways it makes sense. For example, read magic doesn't feel right to me. I don't imagine paladins toting books and scrolls. The prayers of a paladin are from the heart, not rote like those of a cleric.
I see that you preserved some spells as new class abilities, for example protection from evil, endure elements, magic circle against evil, and shield other (as Divine Sacrifice). Since the spell mechanic is more flexible than these hand-picked spell effects, I think too much paladin-appropriate goodness is being lost. Most significantly, I don't see dispel magic, a very thematic paladin ability. Maybe dispelling could be added as a Divine Bond weapon effect. But you also lose mark of justice, zone of truth, death ward, restoration, as well as the potential for good spell ideas in the future that could really nail a paladin concept that should have been there all along. So I prefer not to give up the spell mechanic, even though I don't see paladins as typical practitioners.
He is still restricted to Lawful good and his code of conduct.
Yep.
[b]Level 1: Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Protection from Evil, Oaths, Bonus feat (Weapon Focus or Combat Expertise)
It's great to see that you included oaths! I really think they're fun. I like Protection from Evil, since paladins in 1e had it at first level. Bonus feats will appeal to those who want to emphasize the martial side of the paladin. While I'm sympathetic, I'm not interested in using a mechanic that is already available to fighters. I would prefer instead to strenghten the oaths, so that the paladin's combat prowess comes from the strength of her convictions and requires tactics fitting the concept of a paladin. For those who really want the bonus fighter feats, I would prefer to make it easier for the paladin to level dip as a fighter. For example, you could say that for every fighter level, the paladin can apply one paladin level as a fighter towards feat pre-requisites.
Most significantly, I see that you have deferred Smite Evil to 3rd level, so you can redesign it as an always-on power. Since oaths already give you the option of an always-on bonus, I think the powers are redundant. Also, I really like Smite Evil as it's currently designed, especially since you can add that extra crunch on top of oath benefits, and occasionally out-fight the fighter. I want my paladin to have a smite at first level.
Level 2: Aura of Courage, Lay on Hands.
Yep. I'm OK with a common pool for LoH and CE. I also like the idea of drawing from that pool to reinforce a paladin's aura against spell and breath weapon damage.
Level 3: Smite Evil, Divine Grace.
Someone talked about rider effects on Smite Evil, another idea I really like.
Level 4: Holy Channeling, Divine Health.
Divine Grace and Divine Health are a level late. Is that to discourage opportunistic level dipping? Charisma bonus to all saves seems pretty good for two levels. However, something tells me you're not worried about people level-dipping paladin.
Level 5: Divine Bond, Second Bonus feat (extra channeling, weapon specializaton).
I love the idea of splitting the Divine Bond benefit between weapon and shield. As lastknightleft pointed out, this adds utility rather than power, so it costs little in terms of remaining potential for other powerful abilities. The animated effect feels tricksterish to me, but I think I like all the other effects you listed. This idea should appeal to people wanting more defensive options for their paladin, and it adds a lot of interest.
Level 6: Remove Disease. Endure Elements.
As stated above, I would leave endure elements to the spell mechanic. Also, the intended effect could be achieved with aura reinforcement, without which clustering inside the paladin's aura is a potential deathtrap.
Remove Disease: A simple fix would be to allow a paladins remove disease to actually restore all ability damage lost to the disease. A cleric would take two spells (remove disease and lesser restoration) to do that. Therefor it doesn't feel like a dead level.
A nice touch.
Level 10: Conviction of purpose (Mettle), Third bonus feat (Improve turning or Greater Weapon Focus).
Mettle is nice, but it could be optional, so players who don't value it as highly can pass it up in favor of something else. As for bonus feats, I'm only in favor if they are paladin feats that let you boost your favorite paladin class features. I'd also remove the bonus feat from first level, which combined with oaths is too powerful.
Level 11: Divine sacrifice.
Another spell effect. What if instead a paladin gained spontaneous casting and/or reduced casting time for spells whose total level equals her paladin level? This short list of spells would be permanent, like the sorcerer spell list, so the player would have to think hard about which effects are the most important to his character concept. EDIT: This would leave the availability of the other spells unchanged.
I would drop Aura of Justice. It looks like you changed it to boost allies with bless rather than Smite Evil. I'd rather let the player short-list bless if he wants it. It feels wrong to me that allies can copy the paladin's smite ability, so I approve of your decision to drop that.
Level 16: Consecration.
I might make it a 3rd level paladin spell.
Level 17: Aura of Righteousness.
It should be noted that the damage reduction should read DR 5/good.
Did you mean DR 5/- ?
Level 19: Righteous strike.
I'd roll this into oaths. Iron Sentinel made a great crit-boosting oath named Slay the Wicked.
I would appreciate anyone’s thoughts, but remember that I also understand this will not be accepted by most.
Thanks! I hope the Pathfinder paladin becomes a fun choice that people want to play. Keep up the good work! Your ability to inspire is like that of a paladin, I think.
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Someone may use your ideas even if they don't make it into the next version of Pathfinder, and ideas that get used or even get people thinking may eventually find their way into the game, by virtue of being fun.
Actually, I've started writing up some ideas of "specialized paladins" of several Golarion dieties (i.e. the Blessed Blade of Iomedae, the Redeeming Servant of Sarenrae, etc.) as Prestige Classes.
Oh, and BTW, thanks for the feedback on my Oath proposals. I'll probably make a few changes over the next few days and post them again. Would this thread be okay?
Mink, thank you for taking the time to give this version a proper look. I did not think I would get many positive responses but this is nice.
I am like you with the spells...I dont really see the paladin as a caster. I understand rolling all of that up into the "spells" mechanic but I would prefer if they were just class abilities. I intentionally chose some and left out others. Since I dropped spells, if I would have used only the strongest of them for my concept then people would have cried even more cheese. I do agree with you though, I had to drop some really nice spells for this option. Giving the paladin full caster level or -3 with spontaneous casting would fill that void though I guess....I could live with that.
As for Divine Grace and Divine health...I shifted them just a little because of dipping but you are again right, that was not the big reason. I personally feel that they belong at those levels. If you read the little description for each level I listed that pretty much explains why. It feels right to the progression of the class to me.
Smite evil is something I just dont think we are going to get right. We have worked and worked and worked! on it but we dont have any conclusions that bring us to a balanced stance with other melee's that also lets us SHINE against evil...I just dont feel there is any other way to do it.
Also, after you take out all the levels that simply say you gain one more smite a day, you realize how many "dead" levels the paladin has. It was difficult to manipulate the abilities and add new ones that worked for those now empty levels. I dont think giving the paladin one more use of an ability he already has counts as gaining something for that level. Those should be filled with something...it does not have to be something ground breaking powerful...but something that is more "paladin".
I agree with you, Aura of Justice feels wrong. I felt that replacing it with bless felt much more like the paladin. I like the idea that the paladin is a beacon of light. Those that walk within that light gain the benefit of his conviction of purpose. This is another reason that I suggested long ago (and forgot it in my write up here) that Mettle should have an aura effect. There are so many auras that say, "come stand next to me and we will face this darkness together" while the BBEG says "yes...do that foolish adventurer's now my AoE's will tear you apart! mwahahahaha" Just seems like there should be some protection for those that want to stand with the paladin.
ahhhh well, Mink I really thank you for taking the time to reply. You are right, more ideas may lead us to a paladin we can all be happy with. I know you did not agree with me on everything but I think we are both working for the same goal :)
Someone may use your ideas even if they don't make it into the next version of Pathfinder, and ideas that get used or even get people thinking may eventually find their way into the game, by virtue of being fun.Actually, I've started writing up some ideas of "specialized paladins" of several Golarion dieties (i.e. the Blessed Blade of Iomedae, the Redeeming Servant of Sarenrae, etc.) as Prestige Classes.
Oh, and BTW, thanks for the feedback on my Oath proposals. I'll probably make a few changes over the next few days and post them again. Would this thread be okay?
I had thought of converting my paladin vision into a prestige class...maybe I will do that here as well, thanx for the idea.
And yes man, no prob from me if you wanted to post more oaths here, I think they are great.
Mink, thank you for taking the time to give this version a proper look. I did not think I would get many positive responses but this is nice.
I am like you with the spells...I dont really see the paladin as a caster. I understand rolling all of that up into the "spells" mechanic but I would prefer if they were just class abilities. I intentionally chose some and left out others. Since I dropped spells, if I would have used only the strongest of them for my concept then people would have cried even more cheese. I do agree with you though, I had to drop some really nice spells for this option. Giving the paladin full caster level or -3 with spontaneous casting would fill that void though I guess....I could live with that.
Caster level -3 sounds best to me. Like I said, this took a while to think about, since I kind of agreed with what you were trying to do.
As for Divine Grace and Divine health...I shifted them just a little because of dipping but you are again right, that was not the big reason. I personally feel that they belong at those levels. If you read the little description for each level I listed that pretty much explains why. It feels right to the progression of the class to me.
I agree with you.
Smite evil is something I just dont think we are going to get right. We have worked and worked and worked! on it but we dont have any conclusions that bring us to a balanced stance with other melee's that also lets us SHINE against evil...I just dont feel there is any other way to do it.
Close is good enough for me, since we're no longer relying on smite to fix the power disparity. Smite is fun, and that's why I like it. I'm happy with Jason B's proposal, and I also like the targets/day idea if we limit each smite to the encounter it's declared in. I read some playtests that indicated these changes helped.
Also, after you take out all the levels that simply say you gain one more smite a day, you realize how many "dead" levels the paladin has. It was difficult to manipulate the abilities and add new ones that worked for those now empty levels. I dont think giving the paladin one more use of an ability he already has counts as gaining something for that level. Those should be filled with something...it does not have to be something ground breaking powerful...but something that is more "paladin".
That's a good point. I agree that Smite Evil should be removed from the class progression chart at levels beyond first. It might help awareness to look at the class progression this way.
I agree with you, Aura of Justice feels wrong. I felt that replacing it with bless felt much more like the paladin. I like the idea that the paladin is a beacon of light
After thinking about this some more, I prefer your idea of making the bless effect always-on over being a spell. This way, it derives from an inherent quality of the paladin, not some trick that she pulls out of her pocket for a few rounds. It could be rolled into auras, or if it could be rolled into oaths with a restriction, I'd like it even better.
I agree with you, Aura of Justice feels wrong. I felt that replacing it with bless felt much more like the paladin. I like the idea that the paladin is a beacon of light.
I wonder if there is some way to make the paladin like a beacon of light without buffing the nearby fighter. Since this started as an effort to close the power gap with the fighter, I'm not sure how much we want to focus on buffing effects that make the fighter's advantage even more pronounced. The oath I proposed recently (Lead Us to Victory) has the same problem. Buffs seem to be expected, however. I prefer defensive options over buffs, and I'd rather see more abilities that help the paladin be heroic.
Actually, I've started writing up some ideas of "specialized paladins" of several Golarion dieties (i.e. the Blessed Blade of Iomedae, the Redeeming Servant of Sarenrae, etc.) as Prestige Classes.
I had thought of converting my paladin vision into a prestige class...maybe I will do that here as well, thanx for the idea.
Sounds interesting, as long as no one is suggesting to make the paladin itself a prestige class. The paladin deserves to be a core class. Are these PrCs with paladin prerequisites?
In general, I'd rather pack more options into the core classes so that there is less motivation to resort to prestige classes (even though I still like the idea of prestige classes).
Oh, and BTW, thanks for the feedback on my Oath proposals. I'll probably make a few changes over the next few days and post them again. Would this thread be okay?
And yes man, no prob from me if you wanted to post more oaths here, I think they are great.
Cool! I can't wait! I was wondering where that discussion should go, and was considering a new thread. But this seems like the perfect place, since Vult started the idea of oaths in the first place.
I love the input here. I honestly dont mind the paladin having more "buffs" so long as people actually want him around. I do not think that should be his focus though. I mean this buffs should basically be just what happens because a paladin is there, period. He should not have to spend rounds and rounds getting ready for combat. That is why I think the majority of the paladin package should be always on.
I dont mind more defensive options but not at the sacrifice of offense. This game works off of offense, that is where the fun is...that is where you get things done. It does him no good to be the last man standing if he can not save the day. That is why my original idea for the oath "Avenge the fallen" (i think that was the name) had such a huge bonus if one of his companions fell in battle. That should be a fairly rare thing, so when it happens a paladin with that oath should be able to step up and save the day.
As for making my paladin version a prestige class, I think I will get started on it. I do agree with you, the paladin should remain a core class. I think my version would work fine as core....of course there would be some tweaks, I understand that. So a prestige class would be something above and beyond. I will see what I can come up with.
I love the input here. I honestly dont mind the paladin having more "buffs" so long as people actually want him around. I do not think that should be his focus though. I mean this buffs should basically be just what happens because a paladin is there, period. He should not have to spend rounds and rounds getting ready for combat. That is why I think the majority of the paladin package should be always on.
Good point.
I dont mind more defensive options but not at the sacrifice of offense. This game works off of offense, that is where the fun is...that is where you get things done. It does him no good to be the last man standing if he can not save the day. That is why my original idea for the oath "Avenge the fallen" (i think that was the name) had such a huge bonus if one of his companions fell in battle. That should be a fairly rare thing, so when it happens a paladin with that oath should be able to step up and save the day.
You may have been right about Avenge the Fallen to begin with, and my "balancing" tweak may have gone too far the other way. I actually think this is a defining role for the paladin. The paladin should shine most when things are falling apart, not only shining against undead and outsiders, but also whenever things are desperate and someone needs to save the day. That would go a long way toward making people happy to have the paladin around (even if it rarely comes up).
I was imagining a scenario where the paladin is fighting to defend a small army of low-level allies, where the AtF bonus gets quickly out of hand. Since I still wanted it to be effective within a typical party of adventurers, I added the bit about returning damage point for point, which I was hoping would provide enough extra crunch to make up the difference. This is one of my favorite oaths, and I worry that it will be passed up in favor of Fight to the End. We might want to revisit the number of oaths available to the paladin (currently 1 at 1st, 2 at 10th, and 3 at 20th).
As for making my paladin version a prestige class, I think I will get started on it. I do agree with you, the paladin should remain a core class. I think my version would work fine as core....of course there would be some tweaks, I understand that. So a prestige class would be something above and beyond. I will see what I can come up with.
I'm looking forward to the good ideas, even though the thought of paladin as a PrC makes me queasy.
I'm looking forward to the good ideas, even though the thought of paladin as a PrC makes me queasy.
I totally agree with you. The paladin should be core. But just looking through the newly released PDF for PF PrC's, I do not see even one entry that I would imagine using for my paladin. There should be a PrC that is tempting for a paladin to take. This is where I would focus my efforts for a "paladin" prestige class.
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I'm looking forward to the good ideas, even though the thought of paladin as a PrC makes me queasy.I totally agree with you. The paladin should be core. But just looking through the newly released PDF for PF PrC's, I do not see even one entry that I would imagine using for my paladin. There should be a PrC that is tempting for a paladin to take. This is where I would focus my efforts for a "paladin" prestige class.
I also think the paladin should be a core class. My idea is about "specialized" paladins for specific religions. (I remember Dragon Magazine covering specialized clerics for various Greyhawk gods). For instance, to become a Blessed Blade of Iomedae, a paladin would need a BAB of +5, 2 ranks of Knowledge (Tactics) or Profession (Soldier) and Weapon Focus (Longsword) as a feat.
Of course, I could change some stuff too, but I think you folks might like the Guiding Hand of Iomedae or the Touch of Holy Fire power for some paladins of Sarenae. (For the later, a paladin can add the flaming property to any weapon he or she is holding). Moreover, even if Oaths somehow were not picked up, I'd be inclined to fold an Oath or two into a PrC paladin's powers.
Vult, I realise it isn't core, but take a look at my EK expansion idea and let me know what you think of it please?
I realise it's not a paladin fix, but I'm hoping the idea has some merit.
I'm looking forward to the good ideas, even though the thought of paladin as a PrC makes me queasy.I totally agree with you. The paladin should be core. But just looking through the newly released PDF for PF PrC's, I do not see even one entry that I would imagine using for my paladin. There should be a PrC that is tempting for a paladin to take. This is where I would focus my efforts for a "paladin" prestige class.I also think the paladin should be a core class. My idea is about "specialized" paladins for specific religions. (I remember Dragon Magazine covering specialized clerics for various Greyhawk gods). For instance, to become a Blessed Blade of Iomedae, a paladin would need a BAB of +5, 2 ranks of Knowledge (Tactics) or Profession (Soldier) and Weapon Focus (Longsword) as a feat.
Of course, I could change some stuff too, but I think you folks might like the Guiding Hand of Iomedae or the Touch of Holy Fire power for some paladins of Sarenae. (For the later, a paladin can add the flaming property to any weapon he or she is holding). Moreover, even if Oaths somehow were not picked up, I'd be inclined to fold an Oath or two into a PrC paladin's powers.
I think you and I are on the same page. I dont necessarily think that they need to be specific to each of the gods, though those would be good options too. I think the "paladin" PrC needs to be something that a Holy Warrior would look at and think, yes that is the obvious choice for someone like me. Then there should also be choices that make sense though may not be "obvious" choices for the paladin. I just dont feel there is anything out there like that yet.
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no prob from me if you wanted to post more oaths here, I think they are great.
Well...here is another Oath:
Withstand the Wyrm
The paladin is mentally and spiritually braced to do battle with a truly dangerous foe, a dragon. While this Oath is in effect, the paladin recieves a saving throw bonus equal to their Charisma modifier against the dragon's breath weapon and magic. The paladin also recieves a bonus, equal to half of their Charisma modifier (round fractions down, to a minimum of +1) to their Armor Class against any of the dragon's other attacks. Such effects stack with any other bonuses. Moreover, the paladin gains the benefit of the Diehard feat while enaged in combat with the dragon. Restriction: Shortest Path to the Enemy.
Withstand the Wyrm
The paladin is mentally and spiritually braced to do battle with a truly dangerous foe, a dragon. While this Oath is in effect, the paladin recieves a saving throw bonus equal to their Charisma modifier against the dragon's breath weapon and magic. The paladin also recieves a bonus, equal to half of their Charisma modifier (round fractions down, to a minimum of +1) to their Armor Class against any of the dragon's other attacks. Such effects stack with any other bonuses. Moreover, the paladin gains the benefit of the Diehard feat while enaged in combat with the dragon. Restriction: Shortest Path to the Enemy.
Great to see another defensive oath. Since the paladin already gets her charisma modifier on all saves, granting that bonus again feels a little redundant. Rather than giving half the charisma modifier, I'd forgo the save bonus and just give the full charisma modifier to AC. It should be powerful, or no paladin will forgo an offensive oath for a defensive one (that's why I like to add a little offensive crunch to most defensive oaths). Diehard is nice, although temporary hit points would also do the trick (unless you're looking for the drama of the paladin collapsing after the death blow to the dragon). Since the paladin might already have the Diehard feat, you might add negative hit points equal to the paladin's Wisdom. To (more than) make up for the lost save bonus, I'd add aura reinforcement against energy damage from breath weapon or spells, benefiting allies within the aura. For some reason, I don't like the shortest path restriction with a defensive oath. I think, given the name of the oath, a no-retreat restriction fits better.
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^^^
To re-iterate my earlier point, I agree paladins should remain as a base-class. (BTW, on a quasi-related note, Jason Buhlman's idea of having a blackguard base class is rather intriguing). My idea for specialized paladins of a particular diety is to allow paladins to take their devotion to a different level and reflect the "portfolio" of that god/goddess. Assuming they meet the PrC prerequsites, of course.
For instance, I see Iomedae as a martial goddess, and thus her devotees should be fairly well-versed in the art of personal combat and war itself. In my upcoming PrC "Blessed Blade of Iomedae", there are one or two extra combat-ralated feats, and various rider effects for the smites, and maybe a battlefield oriented talent called the Divine Banner. For a specialized paladin of Sarenae, they should have powers pertaining to the sun and light, as well as abilities that reflect Sarenae's "redemption" aspect. Besides, it's a cool way to further develop the wonderful world that is Golarion.
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feedback on Withstand the Wyrm oath
Thanks for your insight. I was thinking of some other ideas for this Oath such as either deducting the paladin's level from the damage inflicted by the dragon's first successful attack or inflicting that amount of damage on the paladin's first successful melee attack. The extra oomph for the saving throws was meant to make the paladin more resistant to the dragon's most potent weaponary. (Well, at least the breath weapon). Another possibility was deducting the bonus of any Divine Bond weapon from the damage of one of the dragon's attacks per round. The negative hit points idea is a cool suggestion, and I like how you mentioned "the drama of the paladin collapsing after the death blow". It fits with the idea of the heroic paladin.
I understand how increasing the bonus to Aura's would make the Oath more utilitarian, but I believe that it should be personal to the warrior making the Oath. (Sort of like with a Barbarian's rage). Look at at this way, anything that keeps the paladin alive during the battle with the dragon allows for the Auras to continue to buff the party.
Moreover, your suggestion for the No-Retreat restriction is well-taken. What I was looking for was a way to ensure that the paladin would immediately engage the dragon, secure in the belief that the Oath would protect him or her (to some degree) against the dragon. Then again, other Oaths like Slay the Wicked could ensure that the paladin charges in, to meet death and/or glory.
BTW, what would you think of an Oath predicated on fighting horrorific aberrations, or would the Other oaths suffice?
feedback on Withstand the Wyrm oathThanks for your insight. I was thinking of some other ideas for this Oath such as either deducting the paladin's level from the damage inflicted by the dragon's first successful attack or inflicting that amount of damage on the paladin's first successful melee attack. The extra oomph for the saving throws was meant to make the paladin more resistant to the dragon's most potent weaponary. (Well, at least the breath weapon). Another possibility was deducting the bonus of any Divine Bond weapon from the damage of one of the dragon's attacks per round. The negative hit points idea is a cool suggestion, and I like how you mentioned "the drama of the paladin collapsing after the death blow". It fits with the idea of the heroic paladin.
How about DR and energy resistance equal to the paladin's level against that dragon, and +1 to hit and damage for each round she is able to withstand the dragon's attacks? I like the Divine Bond idea, except that the paladin may have chosen a mount rather than a weapon.
I understand how increasing the bonus to Aura's would make the Oath more utilitarian, but I believe that it should be personal to the warrior making the Oath. (Sort of like with a Barbarian's rage). Look at at this way, anything that keeps the paladin alive during the battle with the dragon allows for the Auras to continue to buff the party.
OK, I can appreciate that.
Moreover, your suggestion for the No-Retreat restriction is well-taken. What I was looking for was a way to ensure that the paladin would immediately engage the dragon, secure in the belief that the Oath would protect him or her (to some degree) against the dragon. Then again, other Oaths like Slay the Wicked could ensure that the paladin charges in, to meet death and/or glory.BTW, what would you think of an Oath predicated on fighting horrorific aberrations, or would the Other oaths suffice?
Well, the other oaths don't really cover that, and I think it makes sense. I wonder what others think. Probably the best way to find out is to try it.
I'd like to propose some revisions to the oath mechanic in response to feedback from Snorter (link here) and to introduce per-encounter oaths. First is a minor clarification:
Whenever multiple oaths are in conflict, the paladin can choose to abide by the restriction of any one without losing the benefit of the others, except that an oath with the binding descriptor takes priority over a normal oath. (Defend You With My Life will gain the binding descriptor.)
Next, the shortest path restriction needs some revision to accommodate more 'initiative, discretion, and spirit of the oath' as proposed by Snorter, who was kind enough to supply a list of actions as examples of what an oath should allow:
1. Heal a downed comrade
2. Break down a door
3. Stop to give orders to troops
4. Cast
5. LOH
6. Channel
7. Fight a Neutral mercenary goon
8. Help an ally in trouble
9. Give a flank bonus to his Rogue buddy (so he can sneak-gut his opponent and BOTH be free to rush the boss)...
#1 and #8 (Help an ally) suggest an easy fix:
A paladin may always choose to help an ally in trouble without losing the benefit of an oath. Trouble is broadly defined as any disadvantageous condition, including flanked or weaponless. The exact definition is at the DM's discretion, but is generally assumed to include all negative status effects and conditions like entangled or pinned that apply penalties in combat.
#9 (flank bonus) on the other hand is exactly the kind of tactic that oaths are meant to discourage. Paladins are idealistic, and they are meant to fight differently than other classes. The idea is that while there are no obligatory actions, the more crafty or cautious your tactics, the more you lose the benefit of your idealism.
#7 (Neutral goon) "Fixing" this one defeats the whole purpose of the shortest path restriction. The neutral goon represents an AoO that the paladin passes with contempt on her way to the enemy targeted by the oath. Even a rogue sometimes has to put herself at some risk to get the benefit of sneak attack. Similarly, the paladin's tactical edge shouldn't be easy to set up any way you like. It just happens to depend on the opposite approach to combat as that used by the rogue. It's a direct approach, dramatic rather than subtle, and often heedless of the paladin's own safety (the paladin is brave, not sneaky).
Note that Slay the Wicked grants a bonus not only while fighting the wicked creature, but also while "fighting to get to that creature". So if the paladin is actually hindered on the shortest path (not just threatened), she not only retains her bonus, but it actually applies to the neutral goons, so she need not wait for the bonus to resume.
#3 (Stop to give orders) is also inappropriate for the paladin. Anyone can shout orders as a free action, so that usage is already permitted by the shortest path restriction. The paladin is not a strategist who directs troops from behind. His place is on the front line.
#2 (Break down a door) is either already encouraged by the shortest path restriction (the enemy is on the other side of the door), or else it's an odd distraction that ought to lessen the force of his righteous zeal.
That leaves #4, #5, and #6 (Cast, LoH, Channel). These are trickier. I'm inclined to say that LoH can wait until after combat unless it's needed to stabilize an unconscious opponent (covered by the ally in trouble allowance). Channel Energy has a 30 foot range, and seems like a valid attack requiring the paladin to get within range on the shortest path to benefit from the oath.
That leaves Cast as the only action that I can't easily reconcile with the shortest path restriction. However, I'm not sure it's a big loss, given that so many are complaining about the paladin's need to spend rounds setting up bonuses before attacking. Oaths are the preferred alternative to buffing spells because they let the paladin jump directly into the fray. Vult Wrathblades wanted to dump spells altogether, so it would seem they are not greatly desired for combat (where oaths excel), but more for utility. That said, I would like to see a few oaths that are specifically geared toward providing a casting benefit.
So for anyone "wary of enforcing obligatory actions", here's a revised shortest path restriction that hopefully satisfies all of Snorter's objections:
Shortest Path to the Enemy: When choosing a path to the enemy, the paladin takes -1 to the bonus conferred by the oath for every attack of opportunity avoided on the chosen path that would have been incurred on the shortest path. Each -1 reduces the attack bonus by one and the damage and other bonuses by the corresponding amount. For example, -1 to Scourge the Heretic reduces the benefit by -1 attack, -2 damage, and -5 feet to movement. The bonus reduction lasts until the end of the encounter, or until after a successful attack against an enemy targeted by the oath, whichever comes first.
Similarly, the paladin must attempt anything with a reasonable DC, in spite of any risk entailed (anything the paladin could accomplish by taking 10 outside of combat), if it shortens the distance of the path in the same time or less; otherwise the bonus conferred by the oath is reduced by one. If the paladin opts to attempt something with a higher DC to shorten the path, such as leaping over a chasm, in spite of being under no necessity imposed by the oath, the outcome of success is dramatically heroic, and grants the paladin a bonus attack with a +2 circumstance bonus (usable within one round).
Any delay on the shortest path also reduces the bonus by one for each round of delay. If more than one enemy qualifies, the paladin may choose the shortest path to any one of them reachable in the minimum number of rounds.
Finally, I want to propose a change to the level progression for oaths. Since the number of oaths is growing, and the variety means it's hard to anticipate which oath will be the most useful throughout the day, I thought it would help to have the option of selecting an oath at the beginning of an encounter that lasts only the duration of that encounter (in addition to the standard day-long oaths).
Level 1: 1 daily oath
Level 6: 1 daily oath, 1 encounter oath
Level 10: 2 daily oaths, 1 encounter oath
Level 12: 2 daily oaths, 2 encounter oaths
Level 18: 2 daily oaths, 3 encounter oaths
Level 20: 3 daily oaths, 3 encounter oaths
This is just another way for oaths to allow the paladin more options. What do you think?
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I'd like to propose some revisions to the oath mechanic in response to feedback from Snorter (link here) and to introduce per-encounter oaths. First is a minor clarification:
Whenever multiple oaths are in conflict, the paladin can choose to abide by the restriction of any one without losing the benefit of the others, except that an oath with the binding descriptor takes priority over a normal oath. (Defend You With My Life will gain the binding descriptor.)
Next, the shortest path restriction needs some revision to accommodate more 'initiative, discretion, and spirit of the oath' as proposed by Snorter, who was kind enough to supply a list of actions as examples of what an oath should allow:
Thanks for reading my post, and taking the contents on board.
The reason for asking for clarity on this issue, is that, as can be seen, in 30 years of debating the Paladins' Code, there are a lot of players and DMs out there who have some kind of vendetta against the paladin class, and anyone who chooses to play one, and will insist on the most ridiculous unplayable interpretations.
Let's get the most commonly-occurring, common-sense exceptions into the Oaths, right from Day One, so exasperated players have a defence against petty-minded pedantic DMs.
I like the concept of oaths. It adds a bit of flavor to the class, that makes them different than a fighter with smite.
Thanks, that was the idea, to find a mechanic that expresses what is unique about the paladin, and work to restore the paladin's place as a core class.
Thanks for reading my post, and taking the contents on board.
The reason for asking for clarity on this issue, is that, as can be seen, in 30 years of debating the Paladins' Code, there are a lot of players and DMs out there who have some kind of vendetta against the paladin class, and anyone who chooses to play one, and will insist on the most ridiculous unplayable interpretations.
Let's get the most commonly-occurring, common-sense exceptions into the Oaths, right from Day One, so exasperated players have a defence against petty-minded pedantic DMs.
Well said. I agree we should get that right. Thanks for taking the time to comment constructively on the idea of oaths. I hope we'll get a mechanic that plays well and feels like it should have been there all along.
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I want to propose a change to the level progression for oaths. Since the number of oaths is growing, and the variety means it's hard to anticipate which oath will be the most useful throughout the day, I thought it would help to have the option of selecting an oath at the beginning of an encounter that lasts only the duration of that encounter (in addition to the standard day-long oaths).
That could work nicely.
In fact, I have another idea for an Oath, and it might work best as an Encounter only Oath.
We Are One (or Spirit of the Sword)
By successfully communing with the spirit imbued in a Divine Bonded weapon, the paladin's martial prowness is magnified. Upon triggering the Oath, the paladin recieves a bonus to one of the following areas: all attack rolls, all damage rolls, or Armor Class, equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier. The bonus lasts for a number or rounds equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier, and can be changed from one option to another. (From an Armor Class bonus in one round, to a damage roll bonus on the next round). The paladin can also, if desired, exchange one weapon property for another weapon property for a duration equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier. Restriction: the paladin must commune with the weapon before battle, and if the weapon is sundered after the Oath has been triggered, the paladin must make a Will save without any ability score bonuses, or else be shaken for 1d4 rounds.
Your thoughts, folks?
I want to propose a change to the level progression for oaths. Since the number of oaths is growing, and the variety means it's hard to anticipate which oath will be the most useful throughout the day, I thought it would help to have the option of selecting an oath at the beginning of an encounter that lasts only the duration of that encounter (in addition to the standard day-long oaths).That could work nicely.
In fact, I have another idea for an Oath, and it might work best as an Encounter only Oath.
We Are One (or Spirit of the Sword)
By successfully communing with the spirit imbued in a Divine Bonded weapon, the paladin's martial prowness is magnified. Upon triggering the Oath, the paladin recieves a bonus to one of the following areas: all attack rolls, all damage rolls, or Armor Class, equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier. The bonus lasts for a number or rounds equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier, and can be changed from one option to another. (From an Armor Class bonus in one round, to a damage roll bonus on the next round). The paladin can also, if desired, exchange one weapon property for another weapon property for a duration equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier. Restriction: the paladin must commune with the weapon before battle, and if the weapon is sundered after the Oath has been triggered, the paladin must make a Will save without any ability score bonuses, or else be shaken for 1d4 rounds.
Your thoughts, folks?
Great idea! How do you imagine this one working as a daily oath? I think (although I could be wrong) that it would be best for all oaths to work either way.
I forgot to mention earlier that an oath can be taken for a single encounter as a free action (a daily oath requires ten minutes of prayer). When taken this way, it should last until the end of the encounter. I wonder, with that in mind, could you revise the oath so that its duration is unspecified? A similar oath for the Divine Bond mount would also be nice, or maybe that could be worked into this oath, so it can function either way.
I was wondering, what did you think of my suggestion for Withstand the Wyrm? Do you have another version of that oath, or do you prefer to keep it the way you last presented it?
Thanks for the ideas!
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^^^
Great questions. One possible solution is, as a daily Oath, that the effects can be triggered once per day at the first level and an additional time every four levels thereafter...but only once per encounter. (Thus, the Oath could be triggered twice per day at the 5th level, three times at the 9th level, all the way up to six times per day at the 21st level). Unlike other Oaths, it works against any foe, from the unfortunate mercenary goon, to the most vile BBEG. (The ability to alter one weapon property gives the paladin some addiional tactical flexibility).
As for the Withstand the Wyrm Oath, your counter-proposal has great merit, and I was thinking of something like that as an alternative. I'll post a redone version sometime in the near future.
I am loving the oaths, but please please please...no more "per day" stuff. We have enough trouble with the weakness of smite the way it is.
I am also not so sure about the per encounter oaths....I like the idea that they are something you pick in the morning and that is what you have. To be honest you could even make it where you pick the oath at certain levels and it never changes.
By the way...how many have we come up with so far? I bet it is bordering on 12 or so now....I think this number should not get to big. If we need to we could combine a few of the oaths into one as to not have so many that they get monotonous.
lastknightleft just posted (link here) about which paladin levels are decent and which are lacking. Since level 6 "needs a lot of work", the first per-encounter oath granted at level 6 should help. Another daily oath at that level would have been too much. The per-encounter oath is also nice since the oaths feature is not completely wasted if you happen to pick the wrong oath for the day. Just like the upgraded smite, it reduces the whiff factor. Vult, what do you think?
I am loving the oaths, but please please please...no more "per day" stuff. We have enough trouble with the weakness of smite the way it is.
I was actually trying to think of some kind of always-on benefit for the bonded weapon oath. Let's see what Iron Sentinel comes up with.
I am also not so sure about the per encounter oaths....I like the idea that they are something you pick in the morning and that is what you have. To be honest you could even make it where you pick the oath at certain levels and it never changes.
What if the oath gained at level 10 was permanent instead of daily? We could even drop the oath at level 20, since it's a bit of anti-climax compared to the capstone ability.
By the way...how many have we come up with so far? I bet it is bordering on 12 or so now....I think this number should not get to big. If we need to we could combine a few of the oaths into one as to not have so many that they get monotonous.
I wouldn't mind erring on the side of too many at the beginning, just so we don't discourage any ideas. Like you said, we can consolidate some of them later.
I’d like to propose a revision to the Fight to the End oath. Continuing with the idea of allowing the paladin more discretion, the modified restriction would be
Each time the paladin uses the withdraw action or retreats from combat, the benefit of the oath is reduced by one for the remainder of the day. In the same way, each time the paladin resorts to stealth to avoid an encounter, the benefit is reduced by one for the duration of the next encounter.
in place of the current restriction:
The paladin may not use the withdraw action or retreat from combat, or she loses the benefit of her oath for the day.
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Much better. Stops him acting like a frenzied Dalek.
"EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!"
"What are you doing? I'm out of spells, and Otto's unconscious!"
"EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!"
"Get in the Rope Trick, you fool!"
EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!"
"DEATH!"
"BEFORE!"
"DISHONOUR!"
"WE! WILL NOT! RETREAT!
<enemy hangs hat over his visor; falls down staircase>
I could get on board with the "encounter" oaths if lets say....
If you wish to change your oath at the start of an encounter, you exchange one or more of your daily oaths for whatever one you wish. Though once the encounter is finished you do not regain the benefit of your daily oath until the next day.
This way you have the option of changing it up but you have to give something up.
Of course you could always come up with 2 versions of every oath, one that is the daily version (probably stronger) and one with the encounter version.
I thought this up in the other paladin thread here...what do you guys think?
Each round, a paladin is able to add amounts equaling his paladin level to his to hit, his damage OR his AC when fighting evil. This bonus can be manipulated each round as the paladin desires. The bonus can be added all to one or divided amongst the three in any way.
Thoughts?
I thought this up in the other paladin thread here...what do you guys think?
Each round, a paladin is able to add amounts equaling his paladin level to his to hit, his damage OR his AC when fighting evil. This bonus can be manipulated each round as the paladin desires. The bonus can be added all to one or divided amongst the three in any way.
Thoughts?
That sounds a lot like the weapon bond oath that Iron Sentinel is working on. I think he was playing with the same idea of each round letting the paladin distribute his bonus between attack, damage, and AC.
I guess I would prefer to see this idea expressed as an oath, which has the following advantages:
1. It's more flexible than a static class feature, because the paladin is free to choose something else.
2. It applies a restriction in order to gain the full benefit, which is thematically more in keeping with the paladin. In the paladin upgrade thread, someone was advocating bringing back the 1e tithing and magic item limit in order to justify more powerful abilities for the paladin. Expressing an ability as an oath is in the same spirit, and lets us make the ability more powerful.
I could get on board with the "encounter" oaths if lets say....
If you wish to change your oath at the start of an encounter, you exchange one or more of your daily oaths for whatever one you wish. Though once the encounter is finished you do not regain the benefit of your daily oath until the next day.
This way you have the option of changing it up but you have to give something up.
Of course you could always come up with 2 versions of every oath, one that is the daily version (probably stronger) and one with the encounter version.
That would make the encounter oath gained at 6th level not very exciting, if I know I'm going to be punished for using it. Doesn't that run counter to what we're trying to do with regard to what Snorter is advocating? Also, it makes the daily oath that the paladin spent 10 minutes praying for not very convincing, if I'm encouraged to toss it aside when another benefit is more convenient. Sort of calls into question the paladin's commitment.
Look at it this way. Say I chose Scourge the Heretic before storming the wizard's tower and in the process of defeating the wizards, I rescue the damsel imprisoned inside. Then a not-quite-dead wizard sputters the keyword to open a seal, releasing an army of monsters from the dungeon below. As the monsters burst into the room, the rescued damsel's eyes go wide with terror. Then the paladin says, "Fear not! I vow to defend you with my life!"
This seems to me in the spirit of what Snorter is saying, allowing for the changing nature of combat.
Much better. Stops him acting like a frenzied Dalek.
"EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!"
"What are you doing? I'm out of spells, and Otto's unconscious!"
"EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!"
"Get in the Rope Trick, you fool!"
EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!"
"DEATH!"
"BEFORE!"
"DISHONOUR!"
"WE! WILL NOT! RETREAT!<enemy hangs hat over his visor; paladin falls down staircase>
LOL I never thought I'd see rope trick (what a cool spell) and Dr Who brought together this way.
I had an idea for an alternative to Fight to the End, for players who prefer a different restriction:
Fight With Honor: The paladin vows to fight with honor. She gains +1 attack and damage, plus an additional +1 attack and damage for every four paladin levels above the first (1st, 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th). Restriction: Each time the paladin attacks from the rear or uses the Bluff skill in combat, except to help an ally in trouble, the bonus of the oath is reduced by one for the remainder of the day. Furthermore, the paladin loses the benefit of flanking and does not help allies gain a flanking bonus.
To differentiate the two options, a little flavor in keeping with the oaths' names seems in order: Fight to the End lets the paladin ignore the fatigued and exhausted conditions while fighting. Fight With Honor adds +2 to Charisma while the paladin fights with honor.
That sounds a lot like the weapon bond oath that Iron Sentinel is working on. I think he was playing with the same idea of each round letting the paladin distribute his bonus between attack, damage, and AC.
I guess I would prefer to see this idea expressed as an oath, which has the following advantages:
1. It's more flexible than a static class feature, because the paladin is free to choose something else.
2. It applies a restriction in order to gain the full benefit, which is thematically more in keeping with the paladin. In the paladin upgrade thread, someone was advocating bringing back the 1e tithing and magic item limit in order to justify more powerful abilities for the paladin. Expressing an ability as an oath is in the same spirit, and lets us make the ability more powerful.
I have no problem with that being an oath..I think it is strong enough the way it is, and a restriction would be fine. Though I feel it would basically be a default oath at some point. Possibly around lvl 8+, but that is not a bad thing either.
That would make the encounter oath gained at 6th level not very exciting, if I know I'm going to be punished for using it. Doesn't that run counter to what we're trying to do with regard to what Snorter is advocating? Also, it makes the daily oath that the paladin spent 10 minutes praying for not very convincing, if I'm encouraged to toss it aside when another benefit is more convenient. Sort of calls into question the paladin's commitment.
Look at it this way. Say I chose Scourge the Heretic before storming the wizard's tower and in the process of defeating the wizards, I rescue the damsel imprisoned inside. Then a not-quite-dead wizard sputters the keyword to open a seal, releasing an army of monsters from the dungeon below. As the monsters burst into the room, the rescued damsel's eyes go wide with terror. Then the paladin says, "Fear not! I vow to defend you with my life!"
This seems to me in the spirit of what Snorter is saying, allowing for the changing nature of combat.
I think I see what you are going for...I just dont think that Oaths should be something that are tossed around to easily. Maybe Oaths are daily...or even selected at certain levels and set in stone (which I kinda like better)...or we could call the per encounter ones Vows...Which you used in your example...
"Fear not! I vow to defend you with my life!"
I think I see what you are going for...I just dont think that Oaths should be something that are tossed around to easily. Maybe Oaths are daily...or even selected at certain levels and set in stone (which I kinda like better)...or we could call the per encounter ones Vows...Which you used in your example...
"Fear not! I vow to defend you with my life!"
I was actually thinking of calling them something else, but using the oath mechanic exactly the same except for activation time and duration. The best name I thought of so far is "Sudden Resolve".
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That sounds a lot like the weapon bond oath that Iron Sentinel is working on. I think he was playing with the same idea of each round letting the paladin distribute his bonus between attack, damage, and AC.
Quite so! My vision for the We Are One Oath (though I'm open to potential name changes) was to give the paladin some more oomph even in non-smite situations, albeit with some "strings attached". It doesn't last forever, but when it kicks in, I think it will allow the paladin to contribute even more to a battle.
I've been meaning to compile all our oaths in one place, but some are under revision, and others in the works. For now, I'll link the other oaths so we don't lose track of them. That way, we can get to all of them from this thread.
(link) Oaths quoted at the top of this thread.
(link) Subjugate the Sinner and Inspire the Masses
(link) Blood of the Martyr
(link) Lead Us To Victory
And the following have been proposed so far in this thread:
Withstand the Wyrm (defensive)
We Are One (weapon bond)
Fight With Honor (alternate restriction)
I thought of a better name for an encounter oath: Righteous Impulse. One is gained at 6th level, a second at 12th level, and a third at 18th level. It's essentially an oath that is activated as a free action and lasts for the remainder of the encounter.
I've been meaning to post guidelines for new oaths, so here is a list of what comes to mind:
1. An oath's name should start with a verb, as in "I vow to (oath name)".
2. An oath is not a spell. It should not specify a duration, because it lasts one day or one encounter, depending on how it is activated. Similarly, oaths are not categorized into levels of power the way spells are, so they need to scale across all levels and not be unbalancing as a single level dip. The same rule limiting attack bonus applies to all oaths and should take care of some of the scaling for you.
3. An oath should be strong, and it should have a restriction. Oaths should
a. Make the paladin better than the fighter in situations where you expect the paladin to shine.
b. Express the paladin's code of conduct as a game mechanic that plays out at the tactical level.
Paladins are about restrictions with a high payoff. Each oath should present an intuitive trade-off.
4. An oath should never require resource burning. In particular, an oath's restriction should not, for example, require the use of a smite. This lets the paladin's separate abilities stack at the paladin's discretion and increases the chance that the paladin has at least one undepleted resource.
5. An oath's restriction should allow for the changing nature of combat and not force the paladin's actions. In general, failing to abide by the oath's restriction should not negate the entire oath. Try to give the paladin as much latitude as possible in keeping with the spirit of the oath. Some benefits can resume after non-oath activity allowed by the oath (all oaths implicitly allow helping an ally in trouble). Save strict consequences for oaths that spell out a commitment to an ally, if the paladin abandons or fails that ally.
6. Other paladin class features specifically help the paladin against evil. While many oaths will naturally have that focus as well, the oath mechanic is intended to help paladins be heroic in many circumstances, so they are not left without a means to rescue and defend allies from all kinds of danger. You're encouraged to explore interesting tactical ideas when choosing benefits and restrictions, rather than making them always alignment-based. Oaths should capture other ways that paladins fight differently from the other core classes.
7. Oaths should be balanced with each other so the best choice is not obvious. Try reading some of the existing oaths as examples, and if you see something unbalanced, let us know!
Most of all, an oath should be fun to play, something a player is excited to try. Start with an intuitive paladin theme and have some fun finding that bit of flavor or rules crunch that expresses and encourages the theme in play.
Thanks for reading.
On re-reading Avenge the Fallen, I think it's unbalanced. The point for point part is exactly what I'm looking for, since the theme of this oath is vengeance (think eye for an eye). However, I'm not happy with how the paladin "holds the charge" so to speak until she happens to land her next hit. It introduces bookkeeping if multiple allies go down, and it makes dishing out potentially massive damage too much of a sure thing. Here's a proposed revision:
... Moreover, she may try to return the damage that felled her comrade point for point. For example, if the comrade fell to an attack dealing 11 damage, the paladin adds 11 damage to her next melee attack if it is against that enemy and if it is successful. Restriction: The paladin may not retreat from combat after an ally has fallen, or she applies a -2 Charisma penalty to her next encounter and loses the benefit of the oath for the day.
Compared to the current version:
... Moreover, she may return the damage that felled her comrade point for point. For example, if the comrade fell to an attack dealing 11 hp damage, the paladin adds 11 damage to her first hit against that enemy. Restriction: The paladin may not use the withdraw action or retreat from combat after an ally has fallen, or she loses the benefit of all oaths for the day.
Also, when I scaled back the bonus of Vult's original version (link here) we didn't have the rule limiting attack bonus, so I may have gone farther than I needed out of worry that the paladin could be fighting with an army of low level allies. His original bonus was +3 attack and damage and DR 3/- for each downed ally (HP 0 or less). I think we could go +2 attack, +3 damage, and DR 2/- for each downed ally.
EDIT: The limiting rule could limit the number of bonus increments, not the attack bonus, so using +2 attack as the incremental unit makes this a lot more powerful than all the other oaths that use a +1 attack increment (it doubles the maximum potential attack bonus). The current wording limits bonus to hit, but I was assuming +1 attack increment, so maybe it should be reworded. Vult, what do you think?
EDIT: That would mean that a 1st level paladin with a +3 Charisma modifier could max at +6 attack with this oath. At 10th level, a paladin could max at +12 attack.