Paladin - My vision....


Classes: Cleric, Druid, and Paladin

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I think your on to something Mink. I am still not sure about the returning damage point for point aspect. I really just like the the paladin redoubles his efforts as he sees his companions falling.

I understand the hesitancy to avoid the paladin gaining to big of a bonus if he is with a bunch of low level companions that are going to drop like flies. Setting a limit to this based on level and/or Charisma bonus is fine with me....though the initial bonus should stay fairly high. Your reassessment of +2 to hit, +3 to damage, DR 2/- would work fine I think.

Can you explain again how you added up the maximums for this? I did not follow what you were saying to well. How do we decide what the maximum bonus from downed comrades is with this oath?


Vult Wrathblades wrote:

I thought this up in the other paladin thread here...what do you guys think?

Each round, a paladin is able to add amounts equaling his paladin level to his to hit, his damage OR his AC when fighting evil. This bonus can be manipulated each round as the paladin desires. The bonus can be added all to one or divided amongst the three in any way.

Thoughts?

I posted elsewhere that my only real concern with this idea (flexiblity is good) that it gets a bit overpowering at high levels (IMHO, reality may be different). A level 20 paladin caught in his pyjamas against a demon could suddenly dump his 20 points into AC and be on AC 30 or thereabouts. In his pyjamas. Against a demon.

However...

Just as a little twist, why not use the paladin's Cha bonus instead of the paladin level? It would help out lower level paladins more (which is a good thing, I think) and also reduce a little bit the multi-stat dependancy that the paladin has. Keep the to hit, damage or AC when fighting evil, as you say, but use the Cha modifier instead?

Low level paladins could use this with their limited Smite(s), to either increase the chances of it hitting (and reducing the whiff chance) or the damage that the Smite will do, if it connects.

If this was it, I could really get behind this, in fact putting Smite back to the way it was as in the Beta book as a one-off attack. The idea is really growing on me, but just using the Cha modifier instead would 'cap' it without it ever threatening game balance.

Maybe Divine Blessing? Righteous Blessing? Something like that?

Chobbly
(Trying to positive)


Chobbly wrote:
Vult Wrathblades wrote:

I thought this up in the other paladin thread here...what do you guys think?

Each round, a paladin is able to add amounts equaling his paladin level to his to hit, his damage OR his AC when fighting evil. This bonus can be manipulated each round as the paladin desires. The bonus can be added all to one or divided amongst the three in any way.

Thoughts?

I posted elsewhere that my only real concern with this idea (flexiblity is good) that it gets a bit overpowering at high levels (IMHO, reality may be different). A level 20 paladin caught in his pyjamas against a demon could suddenly dump his 20 points into AC and be on AC 30 or thereabouts. In his pyjamas. Against a demon.

However...

Just as a little twist, why not use the paladin's Cha bonus instead of the paladin level? It would help out lower level paladins more (which is a good thing, I think) and also reduce a little bit the multi-stat dependancy that the paladin has. Keep the to hit, damage or AC when fighting evil, as you say, but use the Cha modifier instead?

Low level paladins could use this with their limited Smite(s), to either increase the chances of it hitting (and reducing the whiff chance) or the damage that the Smite will do, if it connects.

If this was it, I could really get behind this, in fact putting Smite back to the way it was as in the Beta book as a one-off attack. The idea is really growing on me, but just using the Cha modifier instead would 'cap' it without it ever threatening game balance.

Maybe Divine Blessing? Righteous Blessing? Something like that?

Chobbly
(Trying to positive)

Yes, even that would be fine with me...the paladin just needs SOMETHING that is not blown after 1 or 2 uses...he needs something he can rely on.

Silver Crusade

Chobbly wrote:


Just as a little twist, why not use the paladin's Cha bonus instead of the paladin level? It would help out lower level paladins more (which is a good thing, I think) and also reduce a little bit the multi-stat dependancy that the paladin has. Keep the to hit, damage or AC when fighting evil, as you say, but use the Cha modifier instead?

Actually, that's exactly what my "We Are One" Oath does, in addition to the benefit of being able to temporarily switch out one weapon property.


Vult Wrathblades wrote:

I think your on to something Mink. I am still not sure about the returning damage point for point aspect. I really just like the the paladin redoubles his efforts as he sees his companions falling.

I understand the hesitancy to avoid the paladin gaining to big of a bonus if he is with a bunch of low level companions that are going to drop like flies. Setting a limit to this based on level and/or Charisma bonus is fine with me....though the initial bonus should stay fairly high. Your reassessment of +2 to hit, +3 to damage, DR 2/- would work fine I think.

Can you explain again how you added up the maximums for this? I did not follow what you were saying to well. How do we decide what the maximum bonus from downed comrades is with this oath?

The rule is the same for every oath:

Bonuses to hit are limited to the paladin's charisma modifier or one plus half the paladin's level, whichever is higher.

And the proposed re-wording:

Bonuses from an oath in the form +X for each N may be applied a number of times up to the paladin's charisma modifier or one plus half the paladin's level, whichever is higher.

So the first level paladin with +3 Charisma could apply the bonus up to three times, while the 10th level paladin could apply the bonus up to six times (1 + 10/2).

At 20th level, the attack bonus would max at +22 (+2 times N, where N is one plus half of twenty). That sounds like a lot, but I'm not sure it's really overpowered at 20th level for a bonus that kicks in only when things are going very badly for the paladin's group. Normally, an oath uses a +1 attack increment, so for Scourge the Heretic, the 20th level paladin would max at +11 attack.


Iron Sentinel wrote:

^^^

I like your re-working of the Avenge the Fallen Oath. How about a restriction in the form of the Shortest Path toward the individual who took out the paladin's ally?

That makes sense. I think it would be fair to require it in order for the paladin to return damage point for point. Since that's strong, I think it's fair to strictly require the shortest path in that case, all or nothing. To keep it from being overpowered, I'll add that it does not stack with the damage bonus normally granted by the oath.

Otherwise, I'd rather leave the paladin all the flexibility he needs to help his group survive in this desperate situation, so I'd rather not chip away at the bonuses in this case, unless it's needed to balance the oath and keep it from being too powerful.

EDIT: Another thing I would say in favor of returning damage point for point is that it scales perfectly. It's only as powerful as what you're fighting. And I like the way it makes the paladin an instrument of justice.

Scarab Sages

Chobbly wrote:
I posted elsewhere that my only real concern with this idea (flexiblity is good) that it gets a bit overpowering at high levels (IMHO, reality may be different). A level 20 paladin caught in his pyjamas against a demon could suddenly dump his 20 points into AC and be on AC 30 or thereabouts. In his pyjamas. Against a demon.

"I opened the door in my pyjamas, and there was a demon..."

"Why did you build a door into your pyjamas?"

"No, I was confronted by a demon, in my pyjamas!"

"Why was the demon wearing your pyjamas?"

"No, I put on the pyjamas, and came up against a demon!"

"So, you were BOTH inside the same pair of pyjamas? Oh, that's just not right..."

When I start channeling Groucho and Chico, it's time to run.


Chobbly wrote:
Vult Wrathblades wrote:

I thought this up in the other paladin thread here...what do you guys think?

Each round, a paladin is able to add amounts equaling his paladin level to his to hit, his damage OR his AC when fighting evil. This bonus can be manipulated each round as the paladin desires. The bonus can be added all to one or divided amongst the three in any way.

Thoughts?

I posted elsewhere that my only real concern with this idea (flexiblity is good) that it gets a bit overpowering at high levels (IMHO, reality may be different). A level 20 paladin caught in his pyjamas against a demon could suddenly dump his 20 points into AC and be on AC 30 or thereabouts. In his pyjamas. Against a demon.

However...

Just as a little twist, why not use the paladin's Cha bonus instead of the paladin level? It would help out lower level paladins more (which is a good thing, I think) and also reduce a little bit the multi-stat dependancy that the paladin has. Keep the to hit, damage or AC when fighting evil, as you say, but use the Cha modifier instead?

Low level paladins could use this with their limited Smite(s), to either increase the chances of it hitting (and reducing the whiff chance) or the damage that the Smite will do, if it connects.

If this was it, I could really get behind this, in fact putting Smite back to the way it was as in the Beta book as a one-off attack. The idea is really growing on me, but just using the Cha modifier instead would 'cap' it without it ever threatening game balance.

Maybe Divine Blessing? Righteous Blessing? Something like that?

Chobbly
(Trying to positive)

How about just "Righteousness"? Sounds less clerical, and it's really all the reason the paladin needs to be the one getting it done in combat.

I like the idea of helping out low-level paladins more, but I don't see how Vult's idea of using paladin level aggravates the multi-ability dependency.

I like to allow for the hypothetical case of the paladin who chooses to nerf Charisma (in theory every class should be playable without a high primary stat). How about what I proposed for oaths, Charisma mod or one plus half the paladin's level, whichever is higher? That helps low-level paladins without forcing high-level paladins to dump all their ability points into Charisma. And even the ugly, stuttering wannabe paladin gets at least +1 ... Or, since it's all about a bonus you can distribute, how about a bonus of two plus a third of the paladin's level? Again, to help Ned the Paladin who's short on charm.


OK, with this one I'm going to flagrantly steal from Iron Sentinel's We Are One oath and at the same time trample underfoot Snorter's good advice about the paladin's tactical discretion and personal initiative. I had in mind the idea of the knight errant roaming around doing good and helping people for seemingly no reason. For the oath's effect, here's some of the flavor I'm looking for (from Princess Bride):

Inigo: Father, I have failed you for twenty years. Now our misery can end. Somewhere, somewhere close by is a man who can help us. I can not find him alone. I need you. I need you to guide my sword, please. Guide my sword.

Go Where You Lead: The paladin vows to be guided by the spirit of her righteous cause manifested in her divine bond weapon or mount. The paladin declares an objective, and the DM assigns it a righteousness score from 10 to 20 (everything a paladin does is automatically considered righteous as long as the paladin does not stray from Lawful Good alignment). To account for the unpredictable desires of the guiding spirit, the score is modified up or down by d6. Every time the paladin faces a choice of one way versus another, a successful check against DC 25 modified by the righteousness score results in the spirit guiding the paladin toward the objective. The paladin may spend five rounds communing with the spirit to add her Charisma modifier to the check, at the cost of reducing the bonus by one (see below). On an unsuccessful check, the direction is chosen at random from the number of possible choices, including choices such as secret doors of which the paladin is unaware.

Regardless of success, the paladin is helped in every encounter that comes about as a result of this guidance, in the form of a bonus equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier, or two plus a third of her level, whichever is higher, distributable at the paladin's discretion among attack, damage, and AC. The bonuses must be distributed before rolling initiative and cannot be changed again until the next initiative. At the cost of reducing the bonus by one for the remainder of the oath, the player can redistribute the bonus at any time, including after a roll (and the effects still apply to that roll), whether that roll was made by the player (for the paladin) or by the DM (for an enemy), and even if the paladin benefited earlier in the same round from another distribution. The bonus is restored by one at the start of each encounter that the paladin reached by the spirit's guidance.

Restriction: The bonus does not apply to encounters resulting from the paladin's own choice unless the paladin pleads with the spirit for one round, at the cost of reducing the bonus by one. Once per day, at the DM's discretion, the spirit of the divine bond may choose an objective that it deems more righteous than that of the paladin, and may attempt to lead the paladin that way up to three times, at most once per hour. Refusing the spirit’s guidance in this case reduces the bonus by one. A paladin who refuses or overtaxes the divine bond so that the bonus reaches zero loses the use of her divine bond for the day.

If this oath is used as a Righteous Impulse (as an encounter oath rather than a daily oath), it lasts one hour or until the end of the next encounter, whichever is shorter. This oath differs from We Are One by making the distributable bonus more or less always on, within the leeway given for ignoring the restriction (I didn't really trample Snorter's advice), and it adds the ability to change the bonuses "after the fact".

Scarab Sages

minkscooter wrote:
OK, with this one I'm going to flagrantly steal from Iron Sentinel's We Are One oath and at the same time trample underfoot Snorter's good advice about the paladin's tactical discretion and personal initiative.

I heard that.

Silver Crusade

^^^
Ditto!


It was all in fun. I couldn't pass up the idea :) Here's another oath I just thought of:

Liberate the Oppressed: The paladin vows to liberate those under unjust or cruel oppression. An oppressor is anyone who keeps one or more living creatures of above animal intelligence caged, bound, or under a compulsion effect, or who forces anyone to act against their will (including successfully commanding a charmed creature). An oppressor may also be anyone affecting two or more creatures of above animal intelligence with magical or supernatural fear. While opposing an oppressor or seeking to liberate the oppressed, the paladin is immune to charms and compulsions and gains a +2 circumstance bonus against effects that hinder movement. The paladin also gains the effects of a sanctuary spell against any living creature of above animal intelligence under a charm or compulsion. Anyone the paladin loudly calls by name as a swift action gains an immediate re-save against an existing charm or compulsion. Loudly challenging an oppressor as a swift action confers bless on all creatures who have any reason to hope that the paladin might save them, and grants an immediate re-save against existing fear effects. While any creature is blessed in this way, the paladin also gains the effects of bless, as well as a temporary bonus use of smite evil (max 1/day). Restriction: If the paladin knowingly abandons anyone blessed as a result of her oath, she loses the benefit or morale bonuses for the remainder of the day, as well as the ability to confer such bonuses. If she knowingly abandons anyone she called by name, she gains a negative level until everything possible has been done to liberate that individual.

I remember reading in another thread that Jason B is against the idea of per-encounter abilities. Possibly he doesn't like the metagame aspect, or the fact that it resembles encounter powers in 4e. In light of that, I propose that a Righteous Impulse (previously an oath with a duration of one encounter) now last 1 minute per paladin level. I still think this gives the paladin options for dealing with things unanticipated by the daily oath.

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