20th Level Univeralist Wizard Ability

[Kalyth]

This ability is just to much. +2 to all DC and +2 (or is it +4) to overcome spell resistance is just wrong I feel.

If an 20th level Enchanter and a 20th level Generalist both cast Charm Person who should have the higher save DC? Well I would assume the Enchanter however this will not be the case. The Generalist wizard will infact have an equal if not higher save DC. He would get +2 to the DC for being 20th level and also could have +1 or more on top of that if he took Spell Focus (Enchantment). The Enchater would have to take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) just to equal the Generalist DC and would never be able to exceed it.

If you want to give Generalists Higher Save DCs at 20th I would suggest a +1 to all schools and then give Specialist a +2 to the DC of their specialty school. A generalist should not be better at banishing a demon than an Abjurer but with this system the generalist always wins where DC are invovled at 20th level.

I know it wont come up in most campaigne as its not gained until 20th level it just feels wrong.

[Matthew Vickrey]

You're absolutely right, a generalist should never outperform a specialist in their chosen field. This needs looked at.

[The Wraith]

This is my personal crusade as well. And Kalyth, the bonus to overcome Spell Resistance is (sadly) +4...
All these bonuses stack with those of regular feats, which is absolutely too much (IMHO).
Perhaps if they WOULD NOT stack with those of regular feats... perhaps we could call this a powerful but not "overpowerful" ability.

[Bagpuss]

It seems to me that the meaning of 'specialist' in PFRPG seems not to relate to the casting of school spells so much as the specialist somehow being suffused with the school, thus manifesting powers as a result. The 'universalist' is more of a 'spell specialist'.

That said, I'd toss the schools a +2DC bonus to their school at 20th level, too, so that they'd match the guy that specialised in spells (the universalist).

My intepretation of what specialism means may be orthogonal to Jason's, however.

[Bagpuss]

The Wraith wrote:

This is my personal crusade as well. And Kalyth, the bonus to overcome Spell Resistance is (sadly) +4...

All these bonuses stack with those of regular feats, which is absolutely too much (IMHO).
Perhaps if they WOULD NOT stack with those of regular feats... perhaps we could call this a powerful but not "overpowerful" ability.

I think that they have to stack (and I don't have a problem with it, myself; as I said in an earlier post, I might throw the same benefit for specialists at 20th level, but it's not breaking my heart).

That said, the concern on balance should, in my opinion, be on caster vs non-caster, not specialist schools vs universal. The schools can be re-balanced once we make sure that they are broadly balanced with meleers.

[Small Attention Span]

Of course, that begs the question: can casters ever be equal to a melee or mundane weapon's user? If I've been reading the boards right, historically melee fighters are less powerful than anyone who uses magic (bards included, I think). Especially at higher levels, a caster can (though not necessarily will) do more damage than your average fighter/barbarian/rogue etc.

Regardless, the bonus is a little much, but stacking, IMO, is an unfortunate necessity in this case.

An alternate universal power, after a little thought, may be as follows.

Mastery of All Schools: Spellcasting is now second nature to you. You may cast up to 1/2 your level (max 20) in spells as though they were supernatural effects. You lose access to one spell slot per spell used in this way. These spells slots are equal to the spell used -1 unless they are 9th level spells. In this case, you lose a 9th level slot.

[Bryan]

I'd like to see the universalist's ability toned down to +1 to DCs, +2 to overcome SR. Then, I'd give each of the specialists +1 DC/+2 SR at 10th and again at 20th for their school only. You would end up with a generalist who was pretty good at all schools, but didn't outshine the specialists in each individual school.

[KaeYoss]

It's true: Generalists should not be able to outperform all specialists at once. There must be something more appropriate.

[Biggus]

I agree that it doesn't make sense for generalist Wizards to outshine specialists in their chosen schools. However, I would question the +2DC bonus on a more fundamental level; is it a good idea to give 20th-level Wizards a boost to their save DCs at all? PF has nerfed the save-or-die spells, but there are still a few high-level save-or-suck spells out there (Dominate Person and Insanity come to mind). A Wizard can already get his save DCs for 9th-level spells up to 31 by level 20 without inherent bonuses, or 34 with inherent bonuses. The +2 brings that up to 33 or 36. Anyone who doesn't have the relevant good save (or a very high ability score) doesn't have much chance.

So I don't think it should be given to anybody unless PF intends to

1) Nerf the save-or-suck spells, or at least the higher-level ones

and/or

2) Provide additional ways for characters to boost their saves (such as adding/ improving feats).

If the bonus is to be given, I think it should be reduced to +1 save DCs, +2 caster level vs SR, and that the specialists should get the same for their chosen schools.

[Kalyth]

Biggus wrote:

If the bonus is to be given, I think it should be reduced to +1 save DCs, +2 caster level vs SR, and that the specialists should get the same for their chosen schools.

Maybe just give Generalist +4 to caster level checks to overcome spell resistance. If it stacks with Spell Penetration that could come out to +8 which would be a very nice bonus in and of itself. Though it might be argued that that is not much insentive to reach 20th level.

[Kalyth]

Anyone got any ideas for an alternate 20th level ability for they Universalist wizard?

[spalding]

Someone suggested letting them switch out a number of spells per day with different spells on the fly. That was on a different thread but I thought it was a good idea.

[JoelF847]

Another possibility would be to give a 20th level universalist one of the high arcana abilities from the Archmage prestige class, since that's not going to be part of the PRPG rules. This would more directly put those abilities back in the game.

[Kalyth]

JoelF847 wrote:

Another possibility would be to give a 20th level universalist one of the high arcana abilities from the Archmage prestige class, since that's not going to be part of the PRPG rules. This would more directly put those abilities back in the game.

I love that idea. You could even give them a choice as to which High Arcana they want.

[lastknightleft]

I agree that the universalist should never be better at spellcasting than the specialist when the specialist is casting his specialty.

Also I love the idea of taking the archmage abilities and somehow working them into the universalist class. I think that's an awesome way to bring back archmage abilities.

I also think that the specialist should from first level have a +1 to save DCs of his chosen school on top of his specialist special ability. If he lost both the DC boost and the special ability it would discourage memorizing prohibited schools a litte better and make the specialist best at casting spells in his specialty.

[Kalyth]

lastknightleft wrote:

I agree that the universalist should never be better at spellcasting than the specialist when the specialist is casting his specialty.

Also I love the idea of taking the archmage abilities and somehow working them into the universalist class. I think that's an awesome way to bring back archmage abilities.

I also think that the specialist should from first level have a +1 to save DCs of his chosen school on top of his specialist special ability. If he lost both the DC boost and the special ability it would discourage memorizing prohibited schools a litte better and make the specialist best at casting spells in his specialty.

to avoid stacking DCs to high maybe just say that the spcialist gains the Spell Focus Feat for his specialty school.

[Atel]

The 20th level power for the universalist should be toned down to+1/+2 and the specialist should definitely get a bonus to their school save DC with matching penalties to their "dropped" schools at first level to keep them one up on the universalist. The specialist currently has no real advantage in their chosen school which I see no sense in calling them a school specialist more of a theme than anything.

[Selgard]

What about something different entirely?

Maybe a reduction in metamagic cost, for all or for a specific feat, or a reduction in creation times (and only the time) for creating magical items- or for one specific feat?

(i.e. upon reaching 20th level the mage could pick a metamagic feat to get +1 or +2 off the cost, Or they could choose to get a 25% reduction in the time needed to make items using the (insert feat here)

or some such?

-S