1) If you need sock puppets to be explained the functioning of spells on a regular basis, get an expert to explain you everything about the spell you hate before you post your nerf request.
2) If you think magic and mages are overpowered, I strongly suggest you actually play one on an extended playtest, and benchmark them against other classes before you post your nerf requests based solely on the superficial read you did once on so and so class feature or spell.
3) If you think magic's only purpose is hack&slash, go play 4E.
4) If you keep asking the devs to let your warrior do the same stunts as Conan or Aragorn, but insisting at the same time spellcasters shouldn't be able to do the same miracles as Merlin or Morgan Le Fey then look for double moral at your closest encyclopedia.
5) If after all this your mindset hasn't changed yet, then allow me to introduce you to Iron Heroes, it's a very good game and completely free of the magic you so hate. Back when I was introduced to roleplaying (around a decade ago), it was with a game that allowed you to reproduce the warriors of legend, and the magic of legends... if you don't like that go play a game with little to no magic instead on insisting on nerfing magic on all games you play... if you don't like a TV Show change the channel instead of sueing the broadcast network.
Thanks.
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Stop doing that. You know. Making sense and stuff.
I agree completely, and I'm actually a tad miffed that spells HAVE been nerfed in 3x compared to earlier incarnations. (now, casting times are another thing all together...)
I do think, though, that the basic mechanic of 3x did screw melee types, and that needs to be adressed, but not at the expense of the (already) nerfed wizards. (clerics and druids actually came out pretty good in 3x, and shouldn't be messed with either.)
Higher level characters are SUPPOSED to rock the house, and do amazing things, after all...
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mmm ok 2nd try
i agree fully with both of you
if high level casters can't make miracles that awe the world, and high level combatants can't bring down enemies that look imposible... then there is somethign wrong in the game i am playing...
Conan could bring down awakened gods, Legolas killed dozens of orcs before he needed to move away, etc...
why is so surprising a cleric to revive the dead or a wizard visiting other planes and bringin down outsiders?
I do think, though, that the basic mechanic of 3x did screw melee types, and that needs to be adressed, but not at the expense of the (already) nerfed wizards. (clerics and druids actually came out pretty good in 3x, and shouldn't be messed with either.)
Higher level characters are SUPPOSED to rock the house, and do amazing things, after all...
Agreed. Especially with that last part. Because higher level characters ARE supposed to be better. Why? Because they're higher level. Not because they took levels in spellcaster as opposed to melee type, but because they're higher level.
See, in this game system, you put in x effort, gain y XP, and spend it on z levels in such-and-such class. There should not be an automatic advantage just because you picked Wizard over Bard, but rather that you earned more XP and are higher level. 4E might have missed the bar on several things (everything is balanced via Damage-Per-Round, no immediately obvious/understandable realistic explanations for certain powers/effects/healing surges, etc.), but at least they finally got that part right. If Heian the elf Cleric of Sehanine is uber in comparison to Garret the halfling Ranger, it's because he's higher level and that's it.
Well said all of you. I have been screaming my head off trying to make the Powers that be listen to reason as well.
I am excited about 3.75 or pathfinder or whatever you want to call it because it brings back the feel of the 2nd ed wizard. I do not want to go back to the days of volumemetric fireballs or having to take the bad guys loot to town and have to have it remelted because said fireball turned all his shiny gold,copper,electrum(for those that remember such a coin) and etc into a pile of metal slag. I simply feel for all the wizards martial,hit dice and other limitations the balance was at the higher levels they came into their own and could blast a enemy encampment with the ease. Not indefinatly and not often but the power should have been there when needed. My group is playtesting the pathfinder game this week and so far we all cant wait to see the new game in action.
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friggin flamer, anywho. I am a noncaster supporter not because i hate spellcasters, but because of the nerf weapons and abilities 3rd ed gave them. the worst idea of 3rd ed was to allow a concentration check to cast on the defensive (you had you actually play smart in 2nd ed, oh wait, 5ft steps were pretty bad too)
if your the type of guy who like to take all you nonbowling friend out to bowling night and constantly own their amateur behinds, then please keep defending the spellcasters. (the save system sucks for 3rd ed too, high level, poor save classes can NEVER make the save. the mathematics are just plain off)
the game should not be designed that a cleric, a druid and 2 wizards make an optimal party
To respond to Max,
Yes I do play mages and for no other reason than I love the class and what you can do with it. I have also enjoyed many a cleric and quit a few druids. I LOVE spellcasters. No offense to any stick jock junkies out there but I personally can't stand playing a fighter and when I tried to play a paladin I ended up becoming blackguard because I tried to do the right thing(IMO!Ha Ha) Thieves bore me and don't even get me started on a bard(not enough spell umph to interest me)
I am not alone. I play with several guys that say if they have to play a spellcaster then they don't wanna play because they just like cranking up the chainsaw of supreme cleave and laying waste to whatever is around them while the mage flies high above it all and drops fireballs down on the enemies. Not enough room to fly outta the way, no problem, I polymorph into a firbolg and lay waste with my weapon, or a dragon and use my breath or anything else that is situationally appropriate.
I freely admit I am the type of player that uses mages to their fullest, I have never had a party member get all huffy because I stepped on their area or my mage is too this or too that(too evil Maybe?!?)
The point is when you pick your class you pick your role in the game and if you don't like it then bring in a new character don't get all bent out of shape because you do something and then some one else does it better or differently.
I guess I can sum up by saying don't hate the other character or player learn to be the best at what your nitch is within the group.
friggin flamer, anywho. I am a noncaster supporter not because i hate spellcasters, but because of the nerf weapons and abilities 3rd ed gave them. the worst idea of 3rd ed was to allow a concentration check to cast on the defensive (you had you actually play smart in 2nd ed, oh wait, 5ft steps were pretty bad too)
if your the type of guy who like to take all you nonbowling friend out to bowling night and constantly own their amateur behinds, then please keep defending the spellcasters. (the save system sucks for 3rd ed too, high level, poor save classes can NEVER make the save. the mathematics are just plain off)
the game should not be designed that a cleric, a druid and 2 wizards make an optimal party
First of all sneaksy dragon. I am not the impressed by your opening line. As a totally proud homosexual male the friggin flamer comment was unnecessary.
Second and to the point of this thread the moderator said at the very beginning if you don't like whats going on change games(Iron heroes) or house rule magic outta the system.Third you think second was sooo much better well it works both ways because as a spellcasting player I really miss being able to say to the DM about his uber nasty tank monster Save or DIE!!. Those days are gone for a spellcaster and I don't see them coming back, even the hallowed disintegration has been made PC and what about the clerics Harm spell!!
You have a right to play any game you want and house rule anything that you don't like but magic has always been in the D&D game and it will always be.
Steven, I think he was refering to the internet lingo "flamer" as in someone who makes inflamitory posts, not the insult commonly aimed at homosexuals... that aside I totally agree with the caster love, and also would like to point out that the haters frequently neglect to notice how easy it is to save versus high level spells due to the save being based off spell not caster level.
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Steven, I think he was refering to the internet lingo "flamer" as in someone who makes inflamitory posts, not the insult commonly aimed at homosexuals... that aside I totally agree with the caster love, and also would like to point out that the haters frequently neglect to notice how easy it is to save versus high level spells due to the save being based off spell not caster level.
i apologize if you thought i was attacking the homosexual community, i must enforce that i was not. (if i still lived in CA i would have voted against the ban) i was indeed talking about Post starters that are just looking to start trouble with people.
i would love to give back save-or-die, just give me saves that can make it and a way to disrupt the spell. save-or-die were no problem in 2nd ed because if the wizard didnt position himself properly it was run-or-die. casting defensively makes it where they have all the time in the world to throw the deep ball (its offensive line is solid)
dont blow off people who dont fully agree with you, there are solid reasons why many feel that spellcasters in 3rd ed are unfair and dont add to fun high level play (fun for poor sports who love to outshine all of their friends maybe) we should compromise what we want out of the game and work to get at the "feel" that we like.
to Spike, I have never played a high level caster who had many offensive spells with save, that were way low level, i normally take the opportunity to memorize protective, effect, touch, ranged touch, no save, or utilitarian. many rays are still effective at high level (I still love enfeeble) it just a fact that you will have to rotate out certain spell at a certain level, i mean a 15th level cleric isnt going to memorize "command" is he? is a wizard going to memorize sleep?
