We have had some great conversation here. I have decided to put a final list together of all that we have agreed on. I think if we could raise our voices behind one unanimous decision that it would be received well. So I give you the paladin as created by the people who really care about him. A paladin you can live (nay SURVIVE!) with!
The paladin will retain all restrictions listed in the beta.
He will retain full BAB. He will add in a good will save.
Other changes will be listed by level.
Unless otherwise specified, the description of the ability listed is exactly like the description in the Beta.
Level 1: Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day + Holy Avenger, Bonus Feat (selected from any feat that extends paladin abilities, or the weapon focus/spec tree, previously limited to fighter only). He gains an additional bonus feat at 5th level and then another one every 5 levels after that (10th, 15th, and 20th.).
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning its strength as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
I think this was originally posted by Jason Nelson but I could not find his post. I think he and Robert worked closely on it so I felt it ok to post it this way. I also feel that this was the suggestion that had the most support and after reading Jason N’s lengthy explanation I am inclined to agree with it as well. Also the name “Holy Avenger” is up for debate but I listed it under this name as it was the first one suggested and the orginal description.
HOLY AVENGER: A paladin may focus divine energy from his god to course through his body and become an extension of its might. For 1 round + 1 rd per CHA MOD, the paladin gains a bonus to all attack rolls made against evil targets equal to their CHA mod, and an amount of damage equal to his paladin level. Also he gains a bonus to his AC equal to his CHA MOD as a Sacred Bonus. Using this ability uses one of his daily Smite Evil attempts.
SMITE EVIL: 1+CHA mod per day, the paladin may declare a strike to Smite Evil. During this attack, the paladin adds half his paladin level to his attack roll, and deals 1d6 of holy damage / 2 paladin levels. This smite is not used up for the day, if the paladin misses with his attack roll, but if he tries to smite a target that is not evil, the use if expended, but no benefits are gained from it. Smite evil bypasses all forms of Damage reduction. The paladin gains an additional use of smite evil at level 4 and then another at every 3 levels there after. All of these uses can be used for Smite evil or Holy Avenger.
Level 2: Divine Grace, Lay on Hands.
Lay On Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma bonus. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin target’s herself, in which case it is a swift action. As a paladin gains levels, she can use this ability to create other effects. The DC for any of these abilities is based off the paladin’s Charisma. Using any other ability is a standard action, regardless of the target.
Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.
Level 3: Aura of Courage, Divine Health.
Level 4: Channel Positive Energy, Smite Evil 2/day. (spells).
Other listed changes here are the paladin’s caster level becomes Paladin level –3 and he gains spontaneous casting from the whole list. I also modified Jason B’s listed change of Channel Positive Energy to only use up one use of Lay on Hands instead of 2, I feel this fixes that problem. With the improved way it works now I am okay with giving up one of my LoH (which is also greatly improved) to heal an area.
Channel Positive Energy (Su): When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to channel positive energy as a cleric. Using this ability consumes ONE use of her lay on hands ability. A paladin uses her level as her effective cleric level when channeling positive energy.
Level 5 Divine Bond. Second Bonus Feat.
Another change that I love was the addition of being able to divide your weapon bond to bonuses to your shield as well, I think this is an amazing addition. Of course the same rules would apply for the +1 and the additional shield abilities would be drawn from; Bashing, Arrow deflection, Animated (sorry Jason N. I love it! Hehe), blinding. “element” resistance, Fortification (light, moderate or Heavy), Ghost touch, and Reflecting.
I would also add Ghost touch to the list of weapons and Bane with the restriction of undead or evil outsiders.
Divine Bond (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms.
The first bond allows her to enhance her weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a celestial spirit for 1 minute per paladin level. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed light as a torch. At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, merciful, and speed. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s cost. These bonuses do not stack with any properties the weapon already has. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. The bonus and properties granted by the spirit are determined when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until the spirit is called again. The celestial spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the paladin, but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the paladin. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels beyond 5th, to a total of four times per day at 17th level.
If a weapon bearing a celestial spirit is destroyed, the paladin loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until she gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
The second bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the paladin’s level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount to her side. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every 4 levels thereafter, for a total of four times per day at 17th level.
At 11th level, a paladin’s mount gains the celestial template. At 15th level, a paladin’s mount gains spell resistance equal to the paladin’s level +11.
Should the paladin’s mount die, the paladin may not summon another mount for 30 days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Level 6: Remove Disease.
Remove Disease: A simple fix would be to allow a paladins remove disease to actually restore all ability damage lost to the disease. A cleric would take two spells (remove disease and lesser restoration) to do that. Therefor it doesn't feel like a dead level.
Level 7: Smite Evil 3/day.
Level 8: Aura of Resolve.
Level 9: Remove Curse.
This works in the same way as Remove Disease above, just with curses.
Level 10: Smite Evil 4/day. Third Bonsu feat.
Level 11: REMOVE Aura of Justice, ADD Mettle (or whatever OGL name you want.)
Mettle (Ex): You can resist magical attacks with greater effectiveness than other warriors. By drawing on your boundless energy and dedication to your cause, you can shrug off effects that would hinder even the toughest warrior. If you succeed on a Fortitude or Will save against an attack that would normally produce a lesser effect on a successful save (such as a spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), you instead negate the effect. You do not gain the benefit of mettle when you are unconscious or sleeping.
Level 12: Neutralize Poison.
This works in the same way as Remove Disease above, just with poisons.
Level 13: Smite Evil 5/day.
Level 14: Aura of Faith.
I would suggest that this read “a paladin’s weapons are considered to have the “Holy” property” and any attacks made against an enemy within 10 feat of her is treated as good aligned for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction.
This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.
Level 15: Break enchantment. Fourth bonus feat.
Level 16: Smite Evil 6/day.
Level 17: Aura of Righteousness.
It should be noted that the damage reduction should read, DR 5/-.
Level 18: Heal.
Level 19: Smite Evil 7/day.
Level 20: Holy Champion. Fifth bonus feat.
It should also be noted that the damage reduction should read, DR increases to 10/-.
Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). In addition, whenever she channels positive energy or uses lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum possible amount.
I think with these changes gathered from everyone here who really cares what becomes of the paladin, that we have a balanced and capable class; one that is fun to play and fun to have in a group. A paladin that exemplifies the descriptions given for it and truly stands where he should in the fight against evil and the quest to uphold the values of courage, honor, and wisdom.
Could I get a yay or nay from everyone on each point?
a YAY would be great, but if you give a nay please explain.
Thank you.
Could I get a yay or nay from everyone on each point?
a YAY would be great, but if you give a nay please explain.
Thank you.
I think this version is too much with the bonus feats. Even without the feats, this paladin is an excellent class and with the feats the fighter basically trades the entire list of paladin abilities(including channel energy, divine bond, etc.), paladin spellcasting, and a good will save for 5 feats and weapon and armor training.
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I think with these changes gathered from everyone here who really cares what becomes of the paladin, that we have a balanced and capable class; one that is fun to play and fun to have in a group. A paladin that exemplifies the descriptions given for it and truly stands where he should in the fight against evil and the quest to uphold the values of courage, honor, and wisdom.
I'm not trying to be a turd here, but how do you define "balanced"?
I think with these changes gathered from everyone here who really cares what becomes of the paladin, that we have a balanced and capable class; one that is fun to play and fun to have in a group. A paladin that exemplifies the descriptions given for it and truly stands where he should in the fight against evil and the quest to uphold the values of courage, honor, and wisdom.I'm not trying to be a turd here, but how do you define "balanced"?
I guess in this case it would mean that the paladin actually SHINES where he was supposed to shine all along. In the fight against evil!
BTW, I strongly agree with the breakdown of who should "shine" at specific moments of the game. This really helps define the different roles of the various melee oriented characters.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
This is from the fighter design forum, Every class should have a spot. Before these listed changes it was better for a paladin (a person who wanted to be the best at fighting evil) to play a fighter or cleric, now if you want to be the MAN for the fight against evil you can play a paladin.
I think this version is too much with the bonus feats. Even without the feats, this paladin is an excellent class and with the feats the fighter basically trades the entire list of paladin abilities(including channel energy, divine bond, etc.), paladin spellcasting, and a good will save for 5 feats and weapon and armor training.Could I get a yay or nay from everyone on each point?
a YAY would be great, but if you give a nay please explain.
Thank you.
Ok, honestly I am not trying to be an ass here....
But why is it that when we have finally (by WE I mean the people who have been discussing and spending a LOT of time here on the paladin class) come up with some conclusions after HUNDREDS of posts, we start seeing people who have not spoken up ONCE previously to tell us that we have dont something wrong or gone to far?
I am sorry but have you read the over 500 post thread about this? Have you went through all the discussion like MANY of us have and worked your way through to some reasonable conclusions?
Well many of us have, and we have been working on this for some time now. This is what we have come up with...this is (for the most part, a few still have mixed feelings) the combination of the listed changes that MOST of us have agreed are good.
Wow...can I get any support here from those of us who have been discussing the paladin for months?
Ok, honestly I am not trying to be an ass here....But why is it that when we have finally (by WE I mean the people who have been discussing and spending a LOT of time here on the paladin class) come up with some conclusions after HUNDREDS of posts, we start seeing people who have not spoken up ONCE previously to tell us that we have dont something wrong or gone to far?
I am sorry but have you read the over 500 post thread about this? ...
I'm a paladin lover just like the people who took the time to post and follow a 500 post thread discussion to come up with this version of a paladin. I'm also ok with the idea the paladin is one of the 'stand-out' classes and a bit above the power curve. Even with the bonus feats removed I still feel this version of the paladin is an excellent class people would enjoy playing.
You were the one who summarized the class and asked for feedback. I gave it.
Vult: I really like the changes to the Remove Disease and Neutralize Poison abilities. The prior versions were just pathetic compared to what other classes can do by the same level. Now at least, these abilities have some merit and usefulness even in a group with clerics who can cast spells that would do the same thing.
Also, I like the Smite Evil vs. Holy Avenger uses. This seems to be much more on par with what the barbarian can do as "their specialty".
IMO that is what balance is about in terms of class design — keeping classes and abilities relevant compared to those of other classes of the same level.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I've spent too much time message boarding as it is, so I'll keep my reply short and sweet:
1. My version of the first level SE/HA power involved each "use" of HA lasting for 1 round (increasing at higher levels), but since you got 1+CHA uses, you could continue to use it round to round, bonus to hit, dmg, AC, and beat DR/good.
Dropping the hammer with SE also cost a "use" and did 1d6/2 levels (1d6/lvl vs. evil subtype) + shaken 1 rd (1 min if lower HD than you) and beat all DR vs. an evil target.
2. I also suggested that a simpler change would be to keep the HA damage level-based but add a flat 1d6 at 1st level, a minimal bonus at high levels but a much nicer hit at 1st level.
3. I would not give any bonus feats to the paladin. The paladin has PLENTY of stuff going on.
3a. I WOULD, however, give Tower Shield prof as a cheap freebie to paladins.
3b. I would also make all of the WpnFoc/Spec tree available to classes besides fighters based on high BAB and not worry about it being a fighter-specific feat. Fighters already get armor training and weapon training and are kicking plenty of butt.
As for the rest, hit the paladin upgrades thread. I don't really care about mettle or spontaneous casting, though they would be nice.
I wouldn't mind dumping channel energy entirely in exchange for the "channel divine power" or "holy channeling" power that I posted, just to give the pally a point of differentiation from the cleric.
We will see what comes down the pike...
Ok, honestly I am not trying to be an ass here....But why is it that when we have finally (by WE I mean the people who have been discussing and spending a LOT of time here on the paladin class) come up with some conclusions after HUNDREDS of posts, we start seeing people who have not spoken up ONCE previously to tell us that we have dont something wrong or gone to far?
I am sorry but have you read the over 500 post thread about this? ...
I'm a paladin lover just like the people who took the time to post and follow a 500 post thread discussion to come up with this version of a paladin. I'm also ok with the idea the paladin is one of the 'stand-out' classes and a bit above the power curve. Even with the bonus feats removed I still feel this version of the paladin is an excellent class people would enjoy playing.
You were the one who summarized the class and asked for feedback. I gave it.
OK, I admit I tried not to but I did come off as an ass. For that I am sorry.
It is good to get input but it just seems like everytime you start to get close to something that the majority of people are rallying behind, there are those that come in and scream foul! I just thought we were really getting somewhere with this version. I thought we were finally so very close to what we all wanted.
Yes you are right, even without the bonus feats this is a good version. But why eliminate them? They are from a restricted list that gives the paladin a little versatility in there growth. The fighter is going to be getting a bunch (from what I read) of new feats that only he can choose. On top of him being a very formidable class now. Weapon/armor training are GREAT additions for him and I think they are very strong. Combine all that with the new feats he will be getting, his damage output is HUGE. Even when fighting evil he will be able to keep up with the paladin. This does not upset me but we can not worry about the "fighter crutch" anymore for the paladin. He is part fighter too, he is just the fighter that has to follow a ridged code, an alignment and should be able to bash some evil heads!
Again, I cam off like a huge ass, and for that I am sorry. I just get frustrated.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Vult: I really like the changes to the Remove Disease and Neutralize Poison abilities. The prior versions were just pathetic compared to what other classes can do by the same level. Now at least, these abilities have some merit and usefulness even in a group with clerics who can cast spells that would do the same thing.
Also, I like the Smite Evil vs. Holy Avenger uses. This seems to be much more on par with what the barbarian can do as "their specialty".
IMO that is what balance is about in terms of class design — keeping classes and abilities relevant compared to those of other classes of the same level.
Actually, good point. I do also like the notion that a paladin's super-healing works as both a cure of the disease/poison and a restoration of the ability damage associated with it. It's a neat touch that makes the ability distinctive and cool.
Vult: I really like the changes to the Remove Disease and Neutralize Poison abilities. The prior versions were just pathetic compared to what other classes can do by the same level. Now at least, these abilities have some merit and usefulness even in a group with clerics who can cast spells that would do the same thing.
Also, I like the Smite Evil vs. Holy Avenger uses. This seems to be much more on par with what the barbarian can do as "their specialty".
IMO that is what balance is about in terms of class design — keeping classes and abilities relevant compared to those of other classes of the same level.
I think you are exactly right here...*fingers crossed*
I've spent too much time message boarding as it is, so I'll keep my reply short and sweet:
1. My version of the first level SE/HA power involved each "use" of HA lasting for 1 round (increasing at higher levels), but since you got 1+CHA uses, you could continue to use it round to round, bonus to hit, dmg, AC, and beat DR/good.
Dropping the hammer with SE also cost a "use" and did 1d6/2 levels (1d6/lvl vs. evil subtype) + shaken 1 rd (1 min if lower HD than you) and beat all DR vs. an evil target.
2. I also suggested that a simpler change would be to keep the HA damage level-based but add a flat 1d6 at 1st level, a minimal bonus at high levels but a much nicer hit at 1st level.
3. I would not give any bonus feats to the paladin. The paladin has PLENTY of stuff going on.
3a. I WOULD, however, give Tower Shield prof as a cheap freebie to paladins.
3b. I would also make all of the WpnFoc/Spec tree available to classes besides fighters based on high BAB and not worry about it being a fighter-specific feat. Fighters already get armor training and weapon training and are kicking plenty of butt.
As for the rest, hit the paladin upgrades thread. I don't really care about mettle or spontaneous casting, though they would be nice.
I wouldn't mind dumping channel energy entirely in exchange for the "channel divine power" or "holy channeling" power that I posted, just to give the pally a point of differentiation from the cleric.
We will see what comes down the pike...
Jason I could not find your original SM/HA post...I would have used your version had I found it (i did not remember all the subtle differences) and I liked it a lot.
As for the bonus feats, yes they are not necessary but I figured they would be nice....many people argued FOR them. If given the option of the weapon focus/spec tree that would go a long way.
I think Mettle is a must, spontaneous casting will be nice but not as important as Mettle.
I also really liked your Holy Channeling post, if the final version went with that I would be extremely happy in that area.
OK, I admit I tried not to but I did come off as an ass. For that I am sorry.
It is good to get input but it just seems like everytime you start to get close to something that the majority of people are rallying behind, there are those that come in and scream foul! ...
Apology accepted.
I can understand how you feel about working towards something people seem to be getting behind only to have it fall apart (like many of the alpha discussions I was a part of), but in a huge thread like the Paladin Upgrade thread only those people really interested in the paladin are going to follow the thread. When you start a new one with an easy to read summary you'll start getting some new input and it may not agree with the other discussions.
I feel like your paladin is close but maybe a bit over the top, but in any case the bottom line is it's Jason B. you have to convince and not the board readers.
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But why is it that when we have finally (by WE I mean the people who have been discussing and spending a LOT of time here on the paladin class) come up with some conclusions after HUNDREDS of posts, we start seeing people who have not spoken up ONCE previously to tell us that we have dont something wrong or gone to far?
I followed a lot of the previous paladin threads but never chimed in because I am not that invested in the idea of changing any of the classes to radically away from being 3.5 compatible. I'm not suggesting the paladin is... Like I said, I am always curious when people say "balance" in this game.
I appreciate you compiling all the information...but's probably why it is now easy to question the suggestions
OK, I admit I tried not to but I did come off as an ass. For that I am sorry.
It is good to get input but it just seems like everytime you start to get close to something that the majority of people are rallying behind, there are those that come in and scream foul! ...
Apology accepted.
I can understand how you feel about working towards something people seem to be getting behind only to have it fall apart (like many of the alpha discussions I was a part of), but in a huge thread like the Paladin Upgrade thread only those people really interested in the paladin are going to follow the thread. When you start a new one with an easy to read summary you'll start getting some new input and it may not agree with the other discussions.
I feel like your paladin is close but maybe a bit over the top, but in any case the bottom line is it's Jason B. you have to convince and not the board readers.
You are exactly right man. It will be much easier to pick things apart when they are all compact like this. I hope the flip side is also true though. Jason B is the one we need to convince, I hope that with something summarized like this he can spend more time on it as he does not have to filter through all those posts to get to the ones that the majority of people have seemed to like.
Dont get me wrong, I may have gotten Smite and Channel a little off as I tried to incorporate Jason Nelson's ideas but didnt get it exactly right. So if those suggestions that he made are taken verbatim I will also be happy.
I am a huge fan of some form of always on mechanic but that has not been very positively received, about 50% like it. So I did not add that to my summary. I dont care who's ideas get in there as long as we finally can play a paladin that deserves to be called one.
But why is it that when we have finally (by WE I mean the people who have been discussing and spending a LOT of time here on the paladin class) come up with some conclusions after HUNDREDS of posts, we start seeing people who have not spoken up ONCE previously to tell us that we have dont something wrong or gone to far?I followed a lot of the previous paladin threads but never chimed in because I am not that invested in the idea of changing any of the classes to radically away from being 3.5 compatible. I'm not suggesting the paladin is... Like I said, I am always curious when people say "balance" in this game.
I appreciate you compiling all the information...but's probably why it is now easy to question the suggestions
Yes you could argue the semantics of balance all day long. To be 100% honest with you I am not a fan of "balance" in these games. When it comes right down to it balance and fluff do not mix. I think that is where the biggest problems come from is when we try to make the fluff part of the rules but still try to keep "balance", it just does not work.
Truth is the paladin should be using smite evil on EVERY single attack he makes (against things that are evil) he should exude a magic circle against evil constantly. But these things are not "balanced" so we can not have them. I am almost of the mind to say that if we threw this word out and just made the characters what the fluff says they are that we would all be a lot happier. Well all of us except for the guy who wants to play a gnome barbarian and swing a great axe. Basically the people who want to play things that are in combination an oxymoron. Those people would be unhappy.
So balance is not going anywhere, we have to try to deal with it. So we have page upon page of posts that attempt to come up with some conclusion. I just hope we get the closest thing to what we are working for in the end.
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es you could argue the semantics of balance all day long. To be 100% honest with you I am not a fan of "balance" in these games.
Thank you - I was trying really hard not to say it. I have a certain rogue in my campaign that can out damage all the other players combined every time. I don't blame the rules I blame the DM (me).
First: I don't want the validity of my point and my question questioned just because I can't post every day or discuss every topic with the people who can and do this, and who read and work on this. I have many things to do on my weeks and I try to help the way I can, WHEN I can. Thank you.
Now, my point is: Maybe I missed the discussion, but why remove Aura of Justice? In my high level actual game (lv 13), the characters are fighting mostly evil creatures, at the end of the campaign, and the rare Aura of Justice moment is so glorious that I simply want to ask: Why remove it?
As for the other things, except for the bonus feats, it seems okay to me. I am already playtesting jason's new ideas anyway.
First: I don't want the validity of my point and my question questioned just because I can't post every day or discuss every topic with the people who can and do this, and who read and work on this. I have many things to do on my weeks and I try to help the way I can, WHEN I can. Thank you.
Now, my point is: Maybe I missed the discussion, but why remove Aura of Justice? In my high level actual game (lv 13), the characters are fighting mostly evil creatures, at the end of the campaign, and the rare Aura of Justice moment is so glorious that I simply want to ask: Why remove it?
As for the other things, except for the bonus feats, it seems okay to me. I am already playtesting jason's new ideas anyway.
Please refer to the post where I apologized. It would have been nice if you would have read that far down. That said....
The suggestion to remove Aura of Justice was fairly new. But most of us did not like the idea of an aura that we had to use TWO of our already VERY limited smite attempts.
Basically I dont understand why Smite has been considered to be so overpowered for so long that it was limited to just a very few times per day. I mean +char mod to hit and paladin level to damage? By about lvl 12 a fighter is doing at LEAST that on EVERY SINGLE HIT. Not only that, the fighter gets to do it against EVERYTHING, and does not need to use a standard action to decide of the target is evil before he does it. Then have the chance of loosing the power (and many more) completely if you start smiting without detecting evil first.
To be completely honest if the paladin could just use smite evil "AT WILL" this would be about the only way to really balance it out. Then you could add Aura of Justice and say that if the paladin does nothing else for the round he channels his holy power into his friends and they may gain the benefits of his smite evil.
THAT is what I want from a paladin....someone who really kicks evil in the balls. But as we said above, we have to worry about "balance" and if we do something like that someone will cry about it. Even though they forgot to take into account all of the paladin restrictions.
Ok, sorry for the rant. To really answer your question we just thought that it was a wasted aura that we would never use. It takes TOO much of your already limited ability to make it work.
interesting stuff
Hey man, thanx for the reply. I think that your rules writting skills are far superior to mine. If you could get the time to convert my summary into what you are talking about that would be awesome!
Oh my, too bad you guys think it's a wasted resource. Tsc! Really, just because in my game it's one o the grat moments of the day.
Anyway, thanks for the awser.
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Oh my, too bad you guys think it's a wasted resource. Tsc! Really, just because in my game it's one o the grat moments of the day.
Anyway, thanks for the awser.
It's not that it is a waste of a resource. It actually is a great moment, the problem is that the paladin isn't allowed to smite with them. I have no problem with Aura of Justice staying, but part of that cost of giving up two smites should be that it's done as part of your smite. I.E. Paladin smites, then because he burned two instead of one, everyone gets to smite.
Instead it's Paladin uses arua of justice, she's 13th level. She has 5 smites per day, it's a free action to give everyone the ability to smite. Now she can use her swift to smite. She's down to 2 uses per day because she went one round. Now I'm willing to accept 2 uses, but three is too much.
Also there's something that Jason needs to clarify. The new change to smite was not accompanied by a new description on aura of justice. Does that mean that when the paladin uses it it will last for all of the rounds and include the AC bonus to all characters? So now when you use it your allies all gain multiple round smites? Because if so, then I actually think that aura of justice is a cool ability now. And I don't want it to go.
I don't know, that's something to think about.
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interesting stuffHey man, thanx for the reply. I think that your rules writting skills are far superior to mine. If you could get the time to convert my summary into what you are talking about that would be awesome!Please drop the Irony. Why? You're above it and 2 wrong don't make 1 right.
Has anyone actually play tested Jason Bulmahns Paladin?
Yeah I think you were reading something into this that wasn't there.
Weapon form spirit: needs a weapon to inhabit. May shed light as torch upon command. Grants one of the following properties to the weapon:
- counts as Lawful for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction
- counts as Good for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction
- gains Adamantite quality
- gains Cold Iron quality
Weapons inhabited by the spirit gain additional hitpoints equal to half of Paladin's hitpoints.
Nicely written. My biggest issue is that there is such a gross disparity between the path of righteousness and the path of piety. The path of Piety is leaps and bounds better than that of righteousness. I could get behind this option if they were equal.
The quoted section was what I REALLY liked. Giving your bonded weapon those options (and bonus HP) is AWESOME. I am fully behind this! Maybe even add hardness to your weapon = to Char mod.
Vult and Paizo:
I really do not like like the Vult and Co changes to the Remove Disease (and Neutralize Poison) abilitie. It's way overpowered.
But, yes let's give the Paladin Restoration at some level, but the Remove Disease you suggest is just a players wet dream.The Holy Avenger /Smite Evil just seems to be two versions of Smite Evil. Lets's just give Smite Evil sacred bunus to AC, AC = Charisma bonus or half Charisma bonus.
Bonus feat at level 2, 6 and 11. No power dipping, and it matches the ranger.
You are entitled to your opinion. Though I think you are a little off base. How is it over powered to make a 6th level ability basically just the combination of 2 4th level ones (for the cleric that is) By this point the cleric can already do what we suggested. Also the paladin has to drop TWO of his limited uses of LoH (which combines CE) to get this done.
Overpowered? definitely not.
Convenient? definitely!
Um. I didn't detect any snark in Vult's post. Are you certain your comment in response is justified?Please drop the Irony. Why? You're above it and 2 wrong don't make 1 right.interesting stuffHey man, thanx for the reply. I think that your rules writting skills are far superior to mine. If you could get the time to convert my summary into what you are talking about that would be awesome!
Thank you Kyrinn...you are right. I simply wanted ruemere to do what he did...I just compiled what was suggested and accepted by many. I am not a rules writer.
interesting stuffHey man, thanx for the reply. I think that your rules writting skills are far superior to mine. If you could get the time to convert my summary into what you are talking about that would be awesome!Sorry Vult, It's seems I read something into this that wasn't there.
Sorry.
no problem man. I am at fault of the same thing at times :)
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I have a question, for those who don't want a new first level ability for the paladin because it encourages dipping...
DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW AWEFUL ONLY HAVING 1/DAY SMITE IS AND NOTHING ELSE?
The paladin needs another first level ability that does something, it doesn't have to be something great, but it does need something.
Aura of good does absolutely bubkus
Detect evil from level 1-5 does a little more, but not much than bubkus
Smite evil is 1/day with no way to boost.
Can you give me one other class who's class feature only works for one round and then they have nothing else? not one? really? then stop saying people are going to dip for paladin level 1 because he has a bonus feat chosen from a limited list.
Vult, the list can't just say either a feat to improve his cleric abilities or weapon spec, because a) at first level he has no cleric abilities so it makes no sense to give him a feat that improves abilities he doesn't have yet.
At each level that you want him to have a bonus feat make it a choice of two that he doesn't need to meet the pre-reqs.
My suggestion, either for level 1 Weapon focus or combat expertise. A first level paladin chooses between offense or defense. Also if you show me a player dipping one level of paladin for 1 smite a day that still deals damage based on paladin level, and weapon focus or combat expertise, I'm going to hold up a mirror and show them an idiot. however it does give the paladin a needed boost without costing him anything nor encouraging dipping.
Oh yeah, my bad!
I forgot mentioning this little detail! It became so obvious to me and my players that I really, really forgot it! I'm sorry people.
Well, actually I playtested in my ongoing campaign the paladin. We used the aura of justice two times and decided that it was weak, strange the fact that the paladin could not also smite. Then we simply stated that he can also smite on the round he uses aura o justice. This make up for a great wolf pack tatics of destruction of evil...
I'm sorry people. It came so obvious and natural to me and my players that I had forgot the original version.
But then, with this little change it does make a great ability, don't you think? I think that the paladin is all about being a White Knight, the guy who fights evil and helps his friends.
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stuff
But lesser restoration is a 2nd level cleric spell and if you check all diseases do damage, which means that my argument that two spells which the cleric has at 6th level is a valid one. So in this case it is okay for the remove disease to restore ability damage. It's gotten later and has less utility than a spell slot.
Remove Curse is something that the Cleric at 9th level already has restoration and remove curse, and curses if you look at bestow cures don't drain either, nor do they do ability damage unless they are DM adjudicated. Check the curses provided in the book. None of them do drain. So yes this is also 1 ability gotten later, that replaces just 2 spells and has less utility than a spell slot.
Now the poison one okay now we are getting somewhere, poisons do some drain. But checking the full list of poisons they only do drain to one ability at a time. Restoration recovers fully one drained ability. Now lets say that you have a dick DM who makes a poison that drains two abilities at once. this is the only time that the paladin will actually have the cleric hands down beaten. For a whopping one level. At 13 the cleric gains greater restoration. So we have, 1 ability, gotten later and has less utility than a spell slot, unless you have a dick DM then for one level, the paladin can shine before its back to the same.
I am not trying to come across as a dick here, this is looking at the poisons, curses, and diseases in Pathfinder. Even going into splatbooks my arguement holds up just as well. Has this convinced you, if not what part do you disagree with? I'm really curious, because I've shown how each ability is pretty much just right for the level you get it at to act as a full restoration. So I'm really curious if you still have doubts.
The code is really no problem for dipping. A good rogue, for example, would never do evil acts willingly. Not cheating and trying to keep your word is easy. Then, destroying evil is normal.
A good rogue would do great to take a dip at paladin, the saves, the detect evil, skills and the things mentioned are a nice addtition for a rogue: And this is not a good thing!
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I have a question, for those who don't want a new first level ability for the paladin because it encourages dipping...
Those people? That's me.
:-)Why power dip? Let's see:
- Only class with full BAB and good will saves. (So it's a dip for a +2 to will? if it was that important to you you could just take iron will and progress in your own class)
- A bonus feat (did you see my list, either weapon focus or combat expertise)
- the class skills (it's 2 sp per level what class skills)
- the good fortitude saves (gotten by going fighter/barbarian/ranger as well with more useful abilities)
- using wands (can't no spellcasting levels till level 4 and a 4 level dip is just plain old multiclassing)
- detect evil (once again, useless at low levels and easily replicated by a magic item)
- smite evil (sucks at paladin level 1)
- Holy Avenger (a little better, but it'd be easier to get a level of barbarian and have it work against every enemy)
- d10 HD (same as the fighter, ranger, and beaten by barb)
- the Weapon and Armor Proficiency. (not as good as a fighters and he'd have more choices for a feat)Yes, rogues (and fighters) might find this nice (I completely disagree).
And Yes I do have an idea how aweful only having 1/day smite is and nothing else. I'm just saying it encourages dipping....and it does.
And it's one of the reasons i suggested the bonus feat at level 2. Also bonus feats at level 2, 6 and 14 matches the ranger's combat style feats. (the paladin gets LoH at level 2 he doesn't need a bonus feat at that level)And no, I don't see the Code of Conduct as a major problem (then every character you play is lawful good?).
You say it encourages dipping, but I don't see it. Any of the benefits you list, I can get better by dipping into other classes still (yes that's looking at them all as a whole, and comparing them to an equivalent class at the same level). and the fighter to dip into the paladin is actually hurting himself unless he really needed combat expertise or weapon focus (are you kidding me?) and for that he suffers in having to wait to get his armor and weapon training and other abilities and looses out on his capstone power.
Looking at the list above, tell me which class would dip into it, why they would choose it over the other level one classes (particularly barbarian, fighter, and cleric), and why he's dipping instead of progressing in his own abilities.
I don't mean to just point errors and all, but every character from every class loses omething if he's not staying in his own class. If you ask the other persohn to point out why would he dip, and them you come saying the many things he loses because of the dipping, you are not actually adressing the question that the class is atractive for dipping.
It may be a good dip to the cleric or druid to dip into monk for only one level, but there are things he will lose. The things he will be behind single class cleric or druid aren't enough awser to the fact that he may be tempeted too.
I know the question was not for me, but as a paladin lover, I say that the bard and the rogue could get some real good things fro dipping at one level of paladin.
Rogue.
-Armor proficiencies are not anything too much for the rogue.
-Weapons: Good, know to use martial weapons.
-BBA: I don't have to explain.
-d10: Again.
-Good fort and will, being full bba and d10: Great. Now the rogue can be a little better with these saves.
-The bonus feat come in handy to a character that don't gain many bonus feats. Besides, he can them leave open one of the options of rogue talents, if he was planning to get that one.
-Detect evil and other abilities: Good if you are a good rogue, but otherwise not that much.
Now, dipping into barbarian could give some things, including more skill points. At fighter just the bonus feat, but no good will save.
Anyway, I would not dip my char into paladin, but you have to admit that it's tempeting if you look only at the abilities. +1d6 sneak, rogue talent and more waiting one level isn't a high price to pay.
Anyway, I think that the bonus feats could come at the same levels of the ranger ones.
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Sorry, Vult et al., but it's definitely a 'nay' from me.
I know that you've spent a lot of time on this, but I'm kind of confused about the purpose of this thread -- are you guys trying to convince Jason to "accept" this as the better and improved version, which he should now import into PF RPG? Because I don't think it will happen, no matter how many people say 'yea' here. If your purpose is to simply offer ideas, I'm a bit confused why you would start another thread for that, when it would be easier for Jason if as many of the ideas as only possible were posted on one thread. IMO there are way too many individual threads that could very well be merged, instead of everyone starting a new one for their own ideas.
However, if your purpose is simply to offer this as a class "variant" for anyone disappointed in PF Beta paladin (without trying to "sell" it to Jason and the other folks at Paizo), *then* I understand the existence of this thread and approve of it.