Channel Positive/Negative Energy mechanics are a great advancement over Turn Undead mechanics, but they can still use some tweaking. This is the tweak I have done in my campaign and it works rather well. I have posted it in various places a couple of times over the past few months, but never got any response at all - perhaps I will have better luck this time.
The problem with the older Channel Positive/Negative Energy rules is that they are simply too powerful in terms of hit points healed/dealt per round. The power boost is rather massive, when compared to what the Cleric could do per round with his "Cure ... Wounds" spells of the same level before.
At the same time, Channel Positive/Negative Energy has the potential to beneficially affect the adventuring day and Cleric inter-battle spell expenditure, but for this to really take effect, it would have to be castable more times per day - maybe 1/2 Level + Charisma bonus times per day (Note: I have not implemented/playtested the increase in the number of times per day it can be used). In order for that to be feasible, though, its per round effect would have to be decreased.
Suppose that instead of the current healing/damage mechanic, we would instead take cue from "Cure ... Wounds" and "Cause ... Wounds" spells, which after all, are supposed to rely on positive and negative energy respectively.
Channel energy would require a touch to function at the lower levels. In its positive energy version, it would cure hit points to the tune of 1d8 + 1 per level (max. 5), plus an additional 1d8 hit points every two levels thereafter (hence 2d8 +1 per level (max. 10) at third level, 3d8 +1 per leve (max. 15) at fourth level, etcetera). Of course, the ability would also do equivalent damage to the undead upon a succesful touch attack. The Channel Negative Energy ability would, naturaly, work in the opposite manner. The neat thing is, that the Cleric's Channeling improves (under current rules) at the same levels, as the Cleric gains new spell levels, so this would work perfectly in this regard.
In effect, Cleric would expend each Channel Positive/Negative Energy use to spontaneous cast a "Cure/Cause ... Wounds" spell of the highest level he can cast (or lower if he so chose), but with the additional benefit of turning/commanding undead and indeed the Turning/Commanding effects would remain bursts, even though the healing/damage would be touch effects. The actual turning and commanding mechanics would remain the same as they are in the current Channel Positive/Negative Energy desciptions, with the will save determining whether the undead in question flee/are commanded.
At 9th level, Clerics gain 5th level spells and Cure Light Wounds, Mass (or Cause Light Wounds, Mass) is among them. At this stage, it is therefore feasible and balanced to give the Cleric the option to also use Channel Energy to cause an area of effect burst (30' centered around the Cleric) healing damage to living creatures and dealing damage to undead. It would start at at hit points: 1d8 + 1 per level (max. 25) and rise from there every two levels just like the "Mass Cure ... Spells" do. Of course, the Cleric could still use the single target spells if he chose to do so - perhaps even upgraded ones that do not exist in standard rules (additional +1d8 per two levels of Cleric [and increasing the maximum +1/level bonus by 5 per two Cleric levels]).
Given this kind of transparency between cure/cause spells and the Channel Energy ability it would probably be best to remove spontaneous casting of cure/cause spells from the Cleric (perhaps adding domain spontaneous casting instead, though that is for another debate).
My self I don't see a need to give more uses[ see extra channel feat} or make it weaker. It seems to work just fine as is. YMMV
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while i would like to have 1d8 as base cure or damage i understand why it works like that, considering it affect a bigger number of individuals per use
i am playing right now with a 2nd level Cleric of Iomedae and in a battle in clos-quarters... we did poorly (ok ok we had HORRIBLE rolls...) somehow the paladin finished with 5 hps of damage and the wizard with 6 (we were fighting vs a goblin... but the paladin received damage from one of his companions *-_-* the cleric)
in your option i would have needed to use 1 use of positive channel to heal completly both of them... and even then there was the chance of just rolling low.
how it works now i needed to use 1 lucky roll to have both of them fully healed,instead i had to use 2 uses to heal them... i rolled a 5 and a 4... with this i was able to heal them completly, in the other method both would have conitnue to being hurt... also this is only considering this time that we were only 3 players, we usually are 5 or 6... healing all of them would have dried my clericif at all being able to heal all of them... this way the whole party is healed...
which leaves me free to use my spells for what needs to be used.
So far we like the new rules as they are with one slight change....
We add the caster level to the damage/healing with the channel energy. The group quickly found that the amount healed was so random at low levels it needed a slight boost and this was what we decided to try out.
Yes as is it is actually weak in my opinion. If you look at what damage it does to undead even a high level cleric is only going to piss off a medium powered undead creature and thats provided he rolls decent. Add a evil cleric to the threat and he will pretty much offset anything the party cleric does for damage with it. I think some of the good deities that are known for fighting against undead should provide a damage boost to there clerics when they use the channel energy ability. Just like those who focus on healing should provide a boost to the amount healed. Those not with either stay as written per the book.
Hmm, while I don't think the proposal is feasible it might seem that channel positive energy is a tad too good.
Let's compare it to the Cure x Wounds, Mass Spells:
Level; Mass Cure you get at that level; Channel positive energy
Lvl 9: 13.5 hp; 17.5 hp
LVL 11: 20 hp; 21 hp
Lvl 13: 26.5 hp; 24.5 hp
Lvl 15: 33 hp; 28 hpOk, on first glance the average damage healed per use is relatively close but if you consider that even a cleric with no charisma bonus can use channel energy three times a day and getting a Phylactery of Positive Energy Channeling for an extra 2d6 per use is always an option, wasting precious slots on mass cure spells looks really bad by comparison.
On itself I have no problem with that, the cleric got nerfed in other areas and deserves something that let's him do his boring healer job without wasting spell slots.
But:
- prestige classes without channeling progression are infinitely more undesirable than in 3.5.
- you get quadruple punishment for playing a neutral cleric with negative energy channeling: No free heals, no spontaneous cure spells, needs a high charisma and the Selective Channeling feat.
Actually, in my own campaigns I was even harsher in terms of nerfing Channel Energy than what I described above, but this is a compromise system mirroring "Cure ... Spells" exactly, whereas I only used them for inspiration. If you feel I have over-compromised in the above proposal, I would be glad to depower Channelling further, either removing the +1 per level (though I think many will appreciate the reduced variability of healing) or scaling back from d8s to d6s or both.
It is also true that in my own campaigns I did not get rid of spontaneous casting of "Cure ... Wounds" spells, but I am planning to do that. Neutral Clerics with Channel Negative Energy might be able to heal less, but then again, if they chose Channel Negative Energy, they are not really going for the healer archetype... besides I would rule that a Cleric who choses Channel Negative Energy has to chose spontaneous casting of inflict spells rather than cure spells anyway and vice versa with Channel Positive Energy.
Note that this change is actually meant to decrease the healing burden on the Cleric, because when we remove spontaneous casting of Cure spells, while combining it with giving the Cleric many uses per day of Channel Positive Energy, the Cleric will no longer be forced to spontaneous expend his other spells on healing and frequent Channel Positive Energy will present him with a substitute to having to memorize Cure spells...
In order to ensure that the Cleric can heal and still get to do something else, I have been considering implementing an idea, where the Cleric would be able to Channel Energy (hopefully suitably depowered) as a move action - either as a standard feature, or as a feat (Fast(er)/Quick(er) Channeling).
Well your ideas are not bad. Our group and especially the cleric likes the whole channel energy thing without toning it down. A lot of complaints was that the celeric was nothing more then a walking healing machine. Never mind all the other cool spells and party buffs on there spell lists. They never got much of a chance to use them as it was always convert spells to heal party members. Granted wands and potions help take some of that burden off of them, but at lower levels until they can afford some good magic items everyone runs to the cleric for healing. Most players that have played in my group never wanted to be the cleric for that very reason. So that was one change that has been well received in our group. Does it sort of conflict with the mass heal spells? Yes to some degree it does but I think it's posotives out weigh the negatives.
Well your ideas are not bad.
Well thanks :)
Our group and especially the cleric likes the whole channel energy thing without toning it down. A lot of complaints was that the celeric was nothing more then a walking healing machine. Never mind all the other cool spells and party buffs on there spell lists. They never got much of a chance to use them as it was always convert spells to heal party members. Granted wands and potions help take some of that burden off of them, but at lower levels until they can afford some good magic items everyone runs to the cleric for healing. Most players that have played in my group never wanted to be the cleric for that very reason.
I think the above changes would actually help your group and its perception of Clerics. If Clerics could Channel Energy as a move action, yet Channel Energy would not be overpowered thanks to the changes to how it works, they could heal and use their standard action to attack or cast spells in the same round. As such, they would get to actually use their abilities on all those cool actions you described.
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just for the record
in our campaign (RotRL) where i am the cleric, we are still level 2 and more social than fighting... still we have had our fights... and for thetime being i have only used Positive channeling to heal people, have not changed any spell into cures at the time. i even use them to bless the population.
about theneutral cleric
if he choses to change his spells in wound spells its an automatic revuke undead or negativechanneling energy
it is in the book... you can get one from one kind and one from another
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I Dm a game and play the cleric in another. Roll a 1 on your 1d6 channel energy and watch the eyeballs roll ;).
I was worried that this would be way to powerful, it has not. Healing at 1st and 2nd level is still a struggle, just not as painful a struggle. I am eyeing 3rd level and that second d6 and it has me salivating. I built my character on the channel energy build, Extra turning, Selective Channeling and a good Cha (same as my wis 16 each) 8 uses a day, and guess what. I still pop a cure now and then. But I get to Buff! (It makes me giddy)
The player of the Cleric in my game (who also plays the fighter in the game that I play the cleric in) has not gone the channel heavy route I have but he and I share a piece of philosophy, Save that last channeling till camp time. (Never know when that next undead encounter is going to be) We both agree, this is an exciting addition to the class. At low levels it has not changed anything but the need to rest after each encounter. We can go on a few more encounters than we could before. That, as I understand it, was the intent, and it has achieved its goal.
I say Keep it...
I like the idea of adding the 1 per level, but I worry that that would be a little to much of a good thing. 1's suck, but we all roll them. We just assume that 2 of my 8 will be 1's and if I roll better than that then we had a very "blessed day." I don't think we need to add the 1/level. Perhaps a feat could be made that adds 1 per 2 levels or something, I would be very inclined to take that with my cleric.
I Dm a game and play the cleric in another. Roll a 1 on your 1d6 channel energy and watch the eyeballs roll ;).
I was worried that this would be way to powerful, it has not. Healing at 1st and 2nd level is still a struggle, just not as painful a struggle. I am eyeing 3rd level and that second d6 and it has me salivating. I built my character on the channel energy build, Extra turning, Selective Channeling and a good Cha (same as my wis 16 each) 8 uses a day, and guess what. I still pop a cure now and then. But I get to Buff! (It makes me giddy)
That's my cleric's exact build, and I agree. It's fun for the priest because you're not just a healbot and fun for the rest of the party because the adventuring day is longer. It still won't protect against stupidity or bad luck, because 1d6 is way less damage than any opponent does at levels 1 or 2. The channel energy rules are quite good as they are and are the best addition to Pathfinder so far.
Now, some options to add to the healing, like a feat for +1/level, would be nice. My cleric is also jealous of the pally's new lay on hands which lets them put more of a channel's juice into one person, though I think it's great that the pally has a distinct thing so wouldn't recommend that get added to the cleric.
From a DM side of the chair I have noticed only good things comming from the new channel rules. Right now as they are configured they are creating a drastic cut back on the times needed to rest just for the cleric to recharge, they provide a versatility and depth of strategy to the use of turning that never exisited before, they diminish the need to horde castings for future healing and they allow the person playing the cleric to be much more than a heal bot for the party. My fear is that if you tinker to much you may impare these vast improvements. If the damage die is scaled up or down, you will still have the randomness of a possible one, but you may lose the balance that seems to currently be in place. To little healing and the cleric is back to hording spells to drop into cures, to much and the party is over powered by the healing battery that keeps them upright. If you up the number of times channel can be used a scaling issue can take place where as the size of healing dice is increased by feat or level the ability can become broken. Really I think this one got hit out of the park on the first try and should be left as is.
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I have not personally gotten the opportunity to playtest the Channel Energy ability yet, but had a thought that might help with the "overpowered"-ness of the ability.
Instead of a single use both damaging undead and healing allies, what about the player choosing which effect as needed (and thus only one effect per round)? I've read in people's playtests that Channel Energy allowed players to defeat undead that should have been significantly more challenging very quickly. This would cut down on the power of the ability while still maintaining the versatility. Thoughts?
Instead of a single use both damaging undead and healing allies, what about the player choosing which effect as needed (and thus only one effect per round)? I've read in people's playtests that Channel Energy allowed players to defeat undead that should have been significantly more challenging very quickly. This would cut down on the power of the ability while still maintaining the versatility. Thoughts?
I can't comment on higher-level campaigns since we are currently only 2nd level, but as for low-level it doesn't really do squat on undead encounters from my experience.
During our last session we got to fight some zombies. With 2d12+? hp, my turning attempt for 5 whole points of damage was pretty....ho hum. I actually had more fun playing with the CMB rules to bullrush the zombies off a ledge :) Sure, I could burn another turn attempt or two, but with only 6 per day and this being the first encounter, that would have been using a lot of resources. Heck, with zombies having 2d12 hp, that means 4 turning attempts at max damage (per standard rules) to take them completely out. That seems like way too many resources for one encounter.
Honestly, if one turning attempt doesn't do very significant damage, spending more just isn't worth it. So I don't see any reason to seperate out the turning from healing benefits. But of course, I see the Beta turning rules far from "overpowered"...
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I can't comment on higher-level campaigns since we are currently only 2nd level, but as for low-level it doesn't really do squat on undead encounters from my experience.
I do think the healing powers are too powerful. Let me give an example. I have two PCs with Channeling with a potenial third returning.
Paladin 9: 3x Day. Rolls 4d6.
Monk 4/Cleric 4: 4x Day. Rolls 3d6.
Cleric 8: 6x Day. Rolls 5d6.
There are nine creatures (animal companions, familiars included) that can and do gather within 30', after a battle, to get MASS HEALING. That means on the average...
Paladin 9: 126 HP 3x a day.
Monk 4/Cleric 4: 90 HP 4x a day.
Cleric 8: 157 HP 6x a day.
That's a total of 1,680 HP a day.
I do think the healing powers are too powerful. Let me give an example. I have two PCs with Channeling with a potenial third returning.
I can't comment on higher-level campaigns since we are currently only 2nd level, but as for low-level it doesn't really do squat on undead encounters from my experience.
I also speak from experience - my players also played classes with Channel Positive Energy - Paladins and Clerics. My experience, however, indicates that Channel Positive Energy is overpowered in its current form - that's why my suggestions for making it weaker but usable more frequently. The issue is not the total amount of healing PCs can receive from it per day - I have no problem with that whatsoever. The problem comes into play when they are fighting undead. When doing so, a 9th level Cleric is healing the entire party for 5d6 hit points per round, while simultaneusly damaging all the undead for 5d6 hit points per round! This makes battles against the undead trivial in my experience. So it is in combat, where this is a problem, not in after-combat healing. That's why I am suggesting making the ability less powerful per use, but giving more uses of it per day, so the total amount of healing per day could stay the same or even increase, but the ability would no longer be overpowered.