Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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In the other therad where I proposed full attacks as a standard action, at least for martial classes over say level 10, someone suggested that fighters who didn't move should get, rather than more attacks, a defensive bonus for standing relatively still.
That could make sense, say a +2 competence bonus to both AC and to CMB - you're holding your ground, you're harder to push out of the way or knock down.
But that got me thinking a little more. Everyone has said, rightly, so, what IS the paladin's schtick? What is he supposed to be really good at? While the paladin has some so-so offensive abilities, it seems like his forte is really supposed to be defense. So why not indeed make the paladin the most kick-butt defender around.
Which leads me to the notion of Defensive Stance and some playtesting I have been doing the paladin (well, it was a little more tailored than an absolutely straight paladin, since it was for an Al-Qadim-style game I have been running, but for all intents and purposes it was a paladin).
One of the PCs was a priest and took Leadership and got a paladin cohort, and one of the test features I added was Defensive Stance a la the Dwarven Defender. For a cohort, it worked out great. He could plant himself and defend his boss, with all of his defensive stance goodness - better AC, saves, STR, HP. I also made the DR feature of the dwarven defender into a subunit of the defensive stance (so you'd get DR1/- for every 4 levels; for a paladin I could see this being DR/evil instead if you like, or maybe DR/- vs. evil to reflect an actual damage res vs. the evils you're trying to defend) and mixed a little bit of the knight class' ability to block terrain and Tumble into it.
The player loved it, and I thought it worked well as a character with an ability to actively defend. Yes, it's defense, but it's based on actions, not just sitting there (like the pally's great saves).
The campaign only got up to about 10th level or so, so I was not able to playtest the full range spectrum of defensive stance-related abilities, but in redesigning it I might consider starting the defensive stance ability at 1st level (instead of 4th level, which is when I started it with the playtest class). This would give the paladin a substantial, combat-relevant ability at 1st level, and one that really defines him - what does he do? He PROTECTS! He DEFENDS!
Here were the level-relevant abilities I put in for the paladin (in shorthand, cuz my writing was verbose):
1st level - In harm's way (Ex): You designate 1 creature at the start of combat as your ward. If adjacent to your ward, you provide soft cover vs. all attacks. If they are attacked, you can use an AoO to aid another their AC.
I also had their smite ability be 3 + CHA uses per day, each for a single attack, and it gave +1 to hit/+1d6 to damage, increasing by a like amount at 5th/10th/etc. levels (so +5 to hit, +5d6 damage at 20th).
[b]2nd level - Tireless dedication (Ex): You only need 4 hours of sleep per night and are immune to [i]sleep effects.
4th level - Defensive Stance (Ex) (my version was a little diff from the dwarven defender and gave:
+2 STR, DEX, CON (so +1 hp/level, taken after other damage)
+2 morale bonus to saves
+4 dodge bonus to AC
DR 1/- per 4 levels
+1/2 pally level to defensive CMB vs. bull rush/grapple/trip/overrun
+1/2 pally level to Tumble checks through threatened area
+2 bonus to hit with AoOs (+4 if movement-related AoOs)
Each daily use (it was 1/day per 4 levels) lasted 1 minute and you were fatigued afterwards.
7th level - Mobile defense (Ex): You can take a 5-foot step each round when using defensive stance.
10th level - Allied defense (Ex): When fighting defensively (including Comb Exp) or using total defense, you can share your dodge bonus to AC with one adjacent ally (including dodge bonus from def stance).
The higher-level abilities never were playtested but were:
11th level - Defensive strike (Ex): You could try to block an attack on your ward (from In harm's way) like using Deflect Arrows but vs. melee or missile, or take an AoO on someone who attacked your ward.
13th level - Ready defense (Ex): You can activate def stance as an immediate action when you or your ward are attacked, even if flat-footed.
16th level - Tireless defense (Ex): You are no longer fatigued after Def Stance.
19th level - Last defense (Ex): Your Def Stance lasts until the end of an encounter, regardless of duration.
It's not perfect, as we still are stuck with the "but what if they DON'T attack him" conundrum - if you are outdoors, bad guys can go around the pally and just not attack him, but something like this I think might help give the paladin a defined role as an ACTIVE protector and defender.
I would suppose that the use in PF would be designated as rounds per day rather than uses per day, like the compromise rage mechanic from that section of the playtest.
If you wanted it to be really simple, you could just make "defensive stance" something that a paladin could GRANT to another character as long as the paladin was backing him up.
Thoughts?
I like some of these ideas Jason, and it would work thematically for paladins.
I was working on something partially similar but as feats for my home rules that any class could take, but I'd be pretty happy with something like this making it into Pathfinder on the paladin class.
I'm not really thrilled about planting my paladin like a tree and thereby exhausting him. I'd like the defensive ability to work whether I'm firmly planted or advancing bravely against the enemy, as long as the defended ally is adjacent (diagonally is OK). The designated ward is an interesting idea, and suggests that the defended ally must be weaker than the paladin (lower max HP and base attack bonus). Also I'd like the defender role not to sacrifice the smiter of evil role, so I liked the idea of letting the AoO actually give the paladin an attack (as you added at 11th level) rather than just an opportunity to boost an ally's AC. I took the idea even further by resolving the paladin's AoO before the enemy's attack, thereby combining it with with someone's idea in another thread to let the paladin negate an enemy attack.
The firmly planted defense sounds like an interesting feat for a fighter, but not a perfect fit for the paladin concept.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Overall, these are good abilities, but I'd have to say not my idea of what a paladin is. Yes, you could play a paladin this way, but you should be able to play a fighter that way also, or even a rogue security expert or bodyguard type. I'd much rather see abilities like this either in a prestige class that a PC could choose to specialize in, or as feats that a character could choose.
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Hmmm... IMO this would make the paladin too much like the Devoted Defender or Dwarven Defender, and I don't want the paladin to be just a "bodyguard". I think Defensive Stance would be more suitable for the fighter or the rogue than the paladin.
Speaking of the matter, I'm not against the 'Stance'-mechanic -- in fact, I'm playing around with the idea that using a variety of Stances would be possible for all the classes (adopting a stance would be a move-equivalent action).
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Hmmm... IMO this would make the paladin too much like the Devoted Defender or Dwarven Defender, and I don't want the paladin to be just a "bodyguard". I think Defensive Stance would be more suitable for the fighter or the rogue than the paladin.
Sure, and if you went this way you'd probably want to either:
1. Redesign the dwarven defender (and I think Jason B has said he is pretty much rebuilding a lot of the PrCs from the ground up); or,
2. Accept that this is a PrC who is essentially borrowing a class ability from a base class (which is hardly new - there are metric tons of PrCs that do this already).
3. I think the Devoted Defender is non-OGL and 3.0 to boot, but I'm not sure.
Speaking of the matter, I'm not against the 'Stance'-mechanic -- in fact, I'm playing around with the idea that using a variety of Stances would be possible for all the classes (adopting a stance would be a move-equivalent action).
It could be do-able. My guess is that the devs would be reticent to introduce a new combat subsystem, but that may just be me. Obviously they've done it already with rage points, so who knows?
The real problem with defensive stance is that it gets in the way of the paladin rushing dramatically to someone's rescue. Imagine the damsel in distress who has to wait for the paladin to hunker down before he can start defending her. If he's halfway across the room, that's a problem if he can't move and assume a defensive stance in the same round. But if all the paladin has to do is get adjacent to the ally before the enemy attacks, then he can afford to do a double move and rely on the attack of opportunity triggered by the enemy's attack to deliver his defensive counter-smite. Just like Spider Man, he arrives "just in time".
In other threads, I see that
- People want the paladin to have interesting defensive options, but without taking anything away from his offense.
- They want any defensive option to be unique to paladins, not shared by other classes (i.e. no feats also available to fighters).
- In keeping with uniqueness to paladins, they want the defensive option to be helped by charisma.
Except for that last point, auras fit the bill quite nicely: unique to paladins, and they leave the paladin unencumbered by movement restrictions. In fact, you can see the paladin rushing to get within range of an ally to share the benefit of his aura. Any new defensive option should be consistent with this idea.
I think the paladin's defensive role is that of the knight in shining armor who charges to the rescue of those in distress. Enemies who ignore his determined defense of the weak can expect to suffer painful consequences.
The proposed stance mechanics are cool, and I hope to see them revisited outside the paladin discussion. A chain of feats that bolsters defense at the expense of offense ought to prove stronger than defensive options that the paladin gets for free: a perfect trade-off for the gimpy dwarf.